Non-Catholic Christians and Original Sin

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kalt said:
What is your take on original sin?
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Original sin is the first sin Adam and Eve committed which resulted in the fall of man. The stain of original sin is in our genetic makeup which has resulted in our propensity to commit sin.
 
kalt said:
What is your take on original sin?
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Hi kalt,
From the Augsburg Confession:
Also they teach that since the fall of Adam all men begotten in the natural way are born with sin, that is, without the fear of God, without trust in God, and with 2] concupiscence; and that this disease, or vice of origin, is truly sin, even now condemning and bringing eternal death upon those not born again through Baptism and the Holy Ghost.
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3] They condemn the Pelagians and others who deny that original depravity is sin, and who, to obscure the glory of Christ’s merit and benefits, argue that man can be justified before God by his own strength and reason.
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I think the difference in Lutheran and Catholic teaching is we believe concupiscence is sin, and you believe it is not sin in and of itself.

Jon
 
aspirant said:
Would you mind following up by explaining what you happen to think it is or isn’t? 🙂
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In the begining God created Man {Adam and Eve} these 2 were without sin because sin had not yet been committed. Then Eve ate the forbiden fruit from the tree of knowledge and gave it to Adam who also ate it. This was the first sin. Ever since that we are all born with original sin because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve.
 
rev_kevin said:
In the begining God created Man {Adam and Eve} these 2 were without sin because sin had not yet been committed. Then Eve ate the forbiden fruit from the tree of knowledge and gave it to Adam who also ate it. This was the first sin. Ever since that we are all born with original sin because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve.
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Please see the bolded part: what is (or isn’t) this original sin with which we are born? That’s what I meant. Thanks!
 
aspirant said:
Please see the bolded part: what is (or isn’t) this original sin with which we are born? That’s what I meant. Thanks!
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Its the sin brought on by the disobedience of Adam and Eve.
If not right then you tell me what it is orn isn’t.
 
rev_kevin said:
Its the sin brought on by the disobedience of Adam and Eve.
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I don’t understand what you mean, though. Are you saying that we are somehow guilty of their sin, that their sin causes us to sin, something else?

I’m not trying to attack you here, I honestly just want to understand what you believe about how their sin affects us. 🙂
 
aspirant said:
I don’t understand what you mean, though. Are you saying that we are somehow guilty of their sin, that their sin causes us to sin, something else?

I’m not trying to attack you here, I honestly just want to understand what you believe about how their sin affects us. 🙂
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Ok lets see, Adam and Eve chose their course of action which was disobedience, and then God chose his. God had no choice, he could only respond in a way consistent with his perfect moral nature. Now God could not allow sin to go unchecked, he had to punish it. Now if the consequences of Adam and Eve sin seem to be a bit extreme, we must remember that their sin set in motion the world’s tendency toward disobeying God and that is why we sin today. Every single one of us being born with the exception of Jesus, has inherited the sinful nature of Adam and Eve. {Romans 5:12-21} Adam and Eve’s punishment reflects how seriously God views sin of any kind.
 
rev_kevin said:
Every single one of us being born with the exception of Jesus, has inherited the sinful nature of Adam and Eve. {Romans 5:12-21}
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What does it mean, to you, to inherit a sinful nature? What effects does this have on us?
 
rev_kevin said:
Ok lets see, Adam and Eve chose their course of action which was disobedience, and then God chose his. God had no choice, he could only respond in a way consistent with his perfect moral nature. Now God could not allow sin to go unchecked, he had to punish it. Now if the consequences of Adam and Eve sin seem to be a bit extreme, we must remember that their sin set in motion the world’s tendency toward disobeying God and that is why we sin today. Every single one of us being born with the exception of Jesus, has inherited the sinful nature of Adam and Eve. {Romans 5:12-21} Adam and Eve’s punishment reflects how seriously God views sin of any kind.
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How can God have no choice?
 
kalt said:
God had no choice, he could only respond in a way consistent with his perfect moral nature
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Read the bolded part. Catholics also believe God cannot do evil, for example, or do something logically impossible. We may have different ideas about good and evil and reason, but not that God can only act in accord with who and what he is.
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Original sin beacuse of Adam and Eve seperates all who come after them except Jesus ( Gen 3:15-16 He is the seed of a woman) from fellowship with God. Therefore rendering salvation necessary for all to have fellowship with God. Christs imputed rightousness allows one to be in the presence of the Father. Apart from the work of salvation those will be lost forever.
 
JohnNC concupesence is the prediliction or temtation to sin. Didn’t Luther himself say sin and sin boldly? What does that mean? That we can sin ourselves to death but still expect God to forgive us? Original sin is contained in the primal refusal of God’s will and intent.
 
rdscheirer said:
JohnNC concupesence is the prediliction or temtation to sin. Didn’t Luther himself say sin and sin boldly? What does that mean? That we can sin ourselves to death but still expect God to forgive us? Original sin is contained in the primal refusal of God’s will and intent.
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Of course not. In another thread, you claimed to be a former Lutheran, so one should suppose you know what he meant, and know he did not mean as a license to sin.

Jon
 
Jon
I take Luther at his word. That is what I learned, that is what I was taught.

Bob
 
rdscheirer said:
Jon
I take Luther at his word. That is what I learned, that is what I was taught.

Bob
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Bob,
I sorry you were so poorly catechized as a Lutheran. While Catholics here complain about the same problem in the CC, I hope and trust you were better served when you became Catholic.
Lutherans do not take Luther, or any other teacher, at his word, as all teachings and teachers are subject to scripture. That said, I offer a link that describes quite well what Luther actually said and meant, as well as the context of the comment.

ntrmin.org/Be%20a%20sinner%20and%20sin%20boldly%20web.htm

Read it or not, as you wish. I came here to learn more about the Catholic Church, not from those who oppose it, but those who live it. The same advice I give about Luther and Lutherans.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Bob,
I sorry you were so poorly catechized as a Lutheran. While Catholics here complain about the same problem in the CC, I hope and trust you were better served when you became Catholic.
Lutherans do not take Luther, or any other teacher, at his word, as all teachings and teachers are subject to scripture. That said, I offer a link that describes quite well what Luther actually said and meant, as well as the context of the comment.

ntrmin.org/Be%20a%20sinner%20and%20sin%20boldly%20web.htm

Read it or not, as you wish. I came here to learn more about the Catholic Church, not from those who oppose it, but those who live it. The same advice I give about Luther and Lutherans.

Jon
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I am no student of Luther but it would seem to me that Luther’s statement may have reflected his belief in the light of passages in Romans…such as 5:20 and 6:1 in light of how much sin abounded under the law…but grace abounded more…" What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? "
 
Publisher said:
I am no student of Luther but it would seem to me that Luther’s statement may have reflected his belief in the light of passages in Romans…such as 5:20 and 6:1 in light of how much sin abounded under the law…but grace abounded more…" What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? "
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Exactly. Also, there is the fact that, no matter how good our good works are, there is sin in our actions. It is not good enough to avoid sin by avoiding doing good works. We are sinners, and yet we must do our best to respond to His call that we help the least of His children, etc.

Jon
 
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