Non-Catholic Christians: Mary, mother of the Church?

[Lenten_ashes]

What role does the blessed Virgin have in the Church?

Do you object to Catholics claiming she is mother of the Church? I mean, is it something you could see yourself ever believing?

When Jesus is on the cross he has the famous exchange between Him, Mary and John:

Woman, behold thy son! 27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home

What does that statement mean in your opinion?

Thank you.

 

[Hatikvah]

Hello. First, allow me to make clear that I do not identify fully with any particular Protestant denomination as of yet, though I go to a Methodist church. Theologically, I might be closer to Luther. (I’ll have to look into that more.) Mary is kind of a gray area right now.

What role does the blessed Virgin have in the Church?

The Virgin Mary is the mother of Christ (from which she derives her infamous title, mother of God, Theotokos). At the least, she is a devout woman who clearly helped in the bringing of Christ to this earth. In the Church? She is a member of the communion of saints and a good role model in many instances.

Do you object to Catholics claiming she is mother of the Church? I mean, is it something you could see yourself ever believing?

Don’t take offense to this because I don’t intend any. I would not say that the universal Church of all Christians has Mary as its mother – Christ Himself founded it, and we are the Bride of Christ, intended to spend eternity with Him through His atonement and love.

Here’s the potentially offensive part. I object to Mary herself being our mother. Mary can be our “mother” in that she is a role model, and a spiritual mother just like a priest or bishop can be our spiritual father. Pope Francis commented that the Christian who does not take Mary as his mother is an orphan. I am aggrieved by this statement (and I do not normally get fired up over these things).

I take God as my Father (and, of course, my earthly father in a different sense). He adopted me through Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:5). Jesus Christ is also my friend if I choose to follow His commands, and He will confide in me (John 15:14-15).

For me, Mary may have been a perpetual virgin like Luther and the others believed, and the virgin birth of Christ is a fact of orthodoxy, but I would never say that any human, save for Jesus Christ, is sinless now.

Woman, behold thy son! 27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home

What does that statement mean in your opinion?

Jesus is making a historical statement to St. John in particular. He is telling John to look after His mother, to take care of her. John clearly did, because he “took her unto his own home” from that hour onwards. Jesus is being a good son, ensuring that His mother is taken care of. To this day, don’t we try to ensure that our parents are taken care of?

There’s some Protestant commentaries here on that passage: biblehub.com/commentaries/john/19-27.htm

God bless and I hope this helps.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hello. First, allow me to make clear that I do not identify fully with any particular Protestant denomination as of yet, though I go to a Methodist church. Theologically, I might be closer to Luther. (I’ll have to look into that more.) Mary is kind of a gray area right now.

The Virgin Mary is the mother of Christ (from which she derives her infamous title, mother of God, Theotokos). At the least, she is a devout woman who clearly helped in the bringing of Christ to this earth. In the Church? She is a member of the communion of saints and a good role model in many instances.

So when you say infamous title, I am assuming you object to the Theotokos label for her?

Don’t take offense to this because I don’t intend any. I would not say that the universal Church of all Christians has Mary as its mother – Christ Himself founded it, and we are the Bride of Christ, intended to spend eternity with Him through His atonement and love.

I actually agree with this but it’s because most protestants seem to reject her role. I’ve heard some say she was just a incubator for Jesus. Now THAT is highly offensive, imo. Nothing you have said was offensive.

Here’s the potentially offensive part. I object to Mary herself being our mother. Mary can be our “mother” in that she is a role model, and a spiritual mother just like a priest or bishop can be our spiritual father. Pope Francis commented that the Christian who does not take Mary as his mother is an orphan. I am aggrieved by this statement (and I do not normally get fired up over these things).

Spiritual mother is what we believe as well. However, where we differ is our understanding of the communion of saints.

And I’m surprised to hear that the pontiff made that statement. I understand what he is saying but a person who has the Lord could never be a orphan, so not something i would have said.

I take God as my Father (and, of course, my earthly father in a different sense). He adopted me through Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:5). Jesus Christ is also my friend if I choose to follow His commands, and He will confide in me (John 15:14-15).

For me, Mary may have been a perpetual virgin like Luther and the others believed, and the virgin birth of Christ is a fact of orthodoxy, but I would never say that any human, save for Jesus Christ, is sinless now.

This is the toughest teaching of the Church to believe in, imo. The lack of unambiguous biblical evidence and Patristic writings was a little disturbing for me as well. But for a person maybe on the fence and thinking the Church got at least 95% of this stuff correct, then it isn’t a big leap of faith to assume she also got this right as well.

Jesus is making a historical statement to St. John in particular. He is telling John to look after His mother, to take care of her. John clearly did, because he “took her unto his own home” from that hour onwards. Jesus is being a good son, ensuring that His mother is taken care of. To this day, don’t we try to ensure that our parents are taken care of?

There’s some Protestant commentaries here on that passage: biblehub.com/commentaries/john/19-27.htm

God bless and I hope this helps.

A historical statement indeed and one that I, as a protestant, believe i misunderstood until further review. Do you know who the apostle John’s biological mother was?

Pax

 

[LutheranScholar]

Some links from our friends at www.confessingevangelical.com regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary :
confessingevangelical.com/2005/04/27/what-should-we-believe-teach-and-confess-about-mary/, confessingevangelical.com/2005/04/29/how-should-we-hail-mary/, confessingevangelical.com/2007/05/23/what-lies-beneath/.

The Holy Mother seems to be a sharp source of contention even among Evangelicals who fear that any reverence to her is taking honor away from Christ, as Mr. Sasse seems to imply in this blog: confessingevangelical.com/2005/04/28/sasse-mary-worship-is-reheated-paganism/. Of course, as is stated in that blog, while dangers of idolizing the Blessed Mother are very real, there is a right approach to a proper veneration of the Virgin Mary.

 

[Hatikvah]

So when you say infamous title, I am assuming you object to the Theotokos label for her?

Not at all. I’m saying it is a notable title, and it has caused controversy (i.e., Nestorianism). It is certainly earned because Christ Himself is God while also man. #HypostaticUnion

Yeah, that’s a little degrading. I don’t think that God would do that to someone, especially a young woman in Roman Judaea.

Are there any differences between the two understandings that you can point out? It’s not all that apparent to me.

I do respect the Pope and understand that he has a high Mariology, you know, being the Pope, but it was just shocking. That would scare most Protestants away, and rightfully so (from the perspective of the Protestant).

Salmone, I think that was her name. But she is also accepted as one of the “three Marys,” from what I remember. His father was Zebedee and his brother was James.

 

[Hatikvah]

So when you say infamous title, I am assuming you object to the Theotokos label for her?

Not at all. I’m saying it is a notable title, and it has caused controversy (i.e., Nestorianism). It is certainly earned because Christ Himself is God while also man. #HypostaticUnion

I actually agree with this but it’s because most protestants seem to reject her role. I’ve heard some say she was just a incubator for Jesus. Now THAT is highly offensive, imo. Nothing you have said was offensive.

Yeah, that’s a little degrading. I don’t think that God would do that to someone, especially a young woman in Roman Judaea.

Spiritual mother is what we believe as well. However, where we differ is our understanding of the communion of saints.

Are there any differences between the two understandings that you can point out? It’s not all that apparent to me.

And I’m surprised to hear that the pontiff made that statement. I understand what he is saying but a person who has the Lord could never be a orphan, so not something i would have said.

I do respect the Pope and understand that he has a high Mariology, you know, being the Pope, but it was just shocking. That would scare many Protestants away…

A historical statement indeed and one that I, as a protestant, believe i misunderstood until further review. Do you know who the apostle John’s biological mother was?

Salmone, I think that was her name. But she is also accepted as one of the “three Marys,” from what I remember. His father was Zebedee and his brother was James.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Not at all. I’m saying it is a notable title, and it has caused controversy (i.e., Nestorianism). It is certainly earned because Christ Himself is God while also man. #HypostaticUnion

OK, understood.

Are there any differences between the two understandings that you can point out? It’s not all that apparent to me.

Yes, we get grief from protestants for asking for prayers from the saints. As Catholics we understand Jesus to have one body, not one body here and one in heaven. I feel like protestantism maybe inadvertently tries to separate the two. Just my personal experience in discussions with them. Maybe I’m wrong.

I do respect the Pope and understand that he has a high Mariology, you know, being the Pope, but it was just shocking. That would scare many Protestants away

Would have been less shocking coming from Benedict. But this one is more about building bridges so that’s a shocker to me. He knows very well how the media cherry picks his words so he must be careful.

Salmone, I think that was her name. But she is also accepted as one of the “three Marys,” from what I remember. His father was Zebedee and his brother was James.

Correct, son of Salome(the 2nd one) and Zebedee. You can cross reference the end of Matthew and Mark’s gospel accounts to verify. From a protestant site:

biblegateway.com/resources/all-women-bible/Salome-No-2

Salome was ambitious for her sons, and ambition is commendable when it is in full agreement with the mind and purpose of God. Ambition, when divinely directed, can lead to the heights of honor but when selfishly pursued can cast one down to the depths of degradation. Salome knew she was an honored mother because her two sons, James and John, were two of Christ’s best-loved disciples and along with Peter formed the inner circle among the Twelve.

So John’s mother was alive and well and, in fact, present at the crucifixion. Not sure how “far off” she was standing but she may have even heard Jesus saying: BEHOLD, YOUR MOTHER!!.. to her own son.

So in addition to John taking care of her, the Church has always understood this to also mean, Here is Mary, Mother to the Church and Christians. (Revelation 12)

It’s one thing to say, hey, I’m leaving, take care of my mom. Quite another to state it the way Jesus did. So this tidbit helped me to understand why the Church holds the position they do.

Pax

 

[wmscott]

Hello. First, allow me to make clear that I do not identify fully with any particular Protestant denomination as of yet, though I go to a Methodist church. Theologically, I might be closer to Luther. (I’ll have to look into that more.) Mary is kind of a gray area right now.

The Virgin Mary is the mother of Christ (from which she derives her infamous title, mother of God, Theotokos). At the least, she is a devout woman who clearly helped in the bringing of Christ to this earth. In the Church? She is a member of the communion of saints and a good role model in many instances.

Don’t take offense to this because I don’t intend any. I would not say that the universal Church of all Christians has Mary as its mother – Christ Himself founded it, and we are the Bride of Christ, intended to spend eternity with Him through His atonement and love.

Here’s the potentially offensive part. I object to Mary herself being our mother. Mary can be our “mother” in that she is a role model, and a spiritual mother just like a priest or bishop can be our spiritual father. Pope Francis commented that the Christian who does not take Mary as his mother is an orphan. I am aggrieved by this statement (and I do not normally get fired up over these things).

I take God as my Father (and, of course, my earthly father in a different sense). He adopted me through Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:5). Jesus Christ is also my friend if I choose to follow His commands, and He will confide in me (John 15:14-15).

For me, Mary may have been a perpetual virgin like Luther and the others believed, and the virgin birth of Christ is a fact of orthodoxy, but I would never say that any human, save for Jesus Christ, is sinless now.

Jesus is making a historical statement to St. John in particular. He is telling John to look after His mother, to take care of her. John clearly did, because he “took her unto his own home” from that hour onwards. Jesus is being a good son, ensuring that His mother is taken care of. To this day, don’t we try to ensure that our parents are taken care of?

There’s some Protestant commentaries here on that passage: biblehub.com/commentaries/john/19-27.htm

God bless and I hope this helps.

Do you believe that God “cannot” make a sinless being other than Christ?

 

[Jake_Parker]

From my experience, growing up Protestant and visiting many different denominational churches. Mary is always refereed to as the mother of Jesus. There is emphasis placed on the virgin birth of Jesus, but that’s it. After that, everything is about Jesus, and Mary is completely disregarded.

I just looked through the Gospel Coalition website, a highly regarded site by Conservative Christians (with a large majority of the contributors/writers being Calvinist). If you search for words like: Mary, theotokos, Mother of God, Mother of Jesus… you don’t get much of anything. They surprisingly have little to say refuting this very important Catholic teaching. Not so surprising that they have little to say about Mary, otherwise. Because as I said, Protestants believe there is little reason to have much to say about Mary, beyond her being the virgin mother of Jesus (never God).

UPDATE: I did find one article that uses Bible verses, instead of mentioning Mary at all in the title. Oh Protestants. They sure do love their Bible verses, and so called true exegesis. I am actually surprised that they had something to say about how some Protestants downplay her importance too much. Here is most of what they say:

In Mary’s song (1:46-55), traditionally called the Magnificat (from the Latin word for magnifies: “My soul magnifies {NIV – glorifies} the Lord”), Jesus’ mother says that her spirit rejoices in “God my Savior” – which certainly sounds as if she thought of herself as needing a Savior, which would be odd for one immaculately conceived. Indeed, a rapid scan of the Gospels discloses that during Jesus’ ministry, Mary had no special access to her famous son, sometimes failed to understand the nature of his mission (e.g., 2:48-50), and never helped someone obtain some favor from Jesus that he or she could not otherwise obtain. Indeed, the unanimous testimony of Scripture is that people should come to Jesus: “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest” (Matt. 11:28), Jesus says – not, “Come to my mother.” He alone is the true mediator between God and human beings.

Nevertheless, Mary is wholly admirable, a model of many virtues (as is also, e.g., Joseph in Gen. 37 – 50). She accepts her astonishing role with submissiveness and equanimity, considering what it must have initially done to her reputation (1:34-38). Elizabeth twice calls her “blessed” (1:42, 45), i.e., approved by God; the supernatural recognition of the superiority of Mary’s Son over Elizabeth’s son (1:41-45) was doubtless one of the things that Mary pondered in her heart (2:19). But none of this goes to Mary’s head: she herself recognizes that her “blessedness” is not based on intrinsic superiority, but on God’s (the “Mighty One’s”) mindfulness of her “humble state” and his choice to do “great things” for her (1:48-49). Her focus in the Magnificat, as ours must be, is on the faithfulness of God in bringing about the deliverance so long promised (1:50-55).

blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/loveofgod/2010/02/15/genesis-48-luke-139-80-job-14-1-corinthians-

Here will be the one time I give Calvinists credit: They definitely back up their point-of-view on everything very well. Even if it’s not accurate.

 

[Dorothy]

Catholics believe that Mary was redeemed in advance (born without original sin) and that is why she calls God her Savior – because He is.

 

[Hatikvah]

Do you believe that God “cannot” make a sinless being other than Christ?

I didn’t say that; God will do as He pleases, and He is omnipotent. If it was in His will, He could. But don’t try to argue this.

 

[wmscott]

I didn’t say that; God will do as He pleases, and He is omnipotent. If it was in His will, He could. But don’t try to argue this.

I don’t want to argue the fact, just want to point out that the Blessed Mother being sinless is not the first time it has happened. Adam and Eve were created sinless.

 

[jane_doe]

What role does the blessed Virgin have in the Church?

She’s acknowledged and honored, along with the other people of God (like Moses). She is not especially honored as she is in the Catholic Church.

Do you object to Catholics claiming she is mother of the Church?

Catholics can do as they want, not something I’m going to worry about.

I mean, is it something you could see yourself ever believing?

No, I do not believe such excessive devotion appropriate.

When Jesus is on the cross he has the famous exchange between Him, Mary and John:

Woman, behold thy son! 27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home

What does that statement mean in your opinion?

Thank you.

Effectively: “John, take care of Mary.”

 

[JMM1957]

Hello. First, allow me to make clear that I do not identify fully with any particular Protestant denomination as of yet, though I go to a Methodist church. Theologically, I might be closer to Luther. (I’ll have to look into that more.) Mary is kind of a gray area right now.

The Virgin Mary is the mother of Christ (from which she derives her infamous title, mother of God, Theotokos). At the least, she is a devout woman who clearly helped in the bringing of Christ to this earth. In the Church? She is a member of the communion of saints and a good role model in many instances.

Don’t take offense to this because I don’t intend any. I would not say that the universal Church of all Christians has Mary as its mother – Christ Himself founded it, and we are the Bride of Christ, intended to spend eternity with Him through His atonement and love.

Here’s the potentially offensive part. I object to Mary herself being our mother. Mary can be our “mother” in that she is a role model, and a spiritual mother just like a priest or bishop can be our spiritual father. Pope Francis commented that the Christian who does not take Mary as his mother is an orphan. I am aggrieved by this statement (and I do not normally get fired up over these things).

I take God as my Father (and, of course, my earthly father in a different sense). He adopted me through Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:5). Jesus Christ is also my friend if I choose to follow His commands, and He will confide in me (John 15:14-15).

For me, Mary may have been a perpetual virgin like Luther and the others believed, and the virgin birth of Christ is a fact of orthodoxy, but I would never say that any human, save for Jesus Christ, is sinless now.

Jesus is making a historical statement to St. John in particular. He is telling John to look after His mother, to take care of her. John clearly did, because he “took her unto his own home” from that hour onwards. Jesus is being a good son, ensuring that His mother is taken care of. To this day, don’t we try to ensure that our parents are taken care of?

There’s some Protestant commentaries here on that passage: biblehub.com/commentaries/john/19-27.htm

God bless and I hope this helps.

Do you believe Jesus had biological siblings? If so, how many?

 

[JMM1957]

Originally Posted by Lenten_ashes View Post
When Jesus is on the cross he has the famous exchange between Him, Mary and John:

Woman, behold thy son! 27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home

What does that statement mean in your opinion?

Thank you.

jane_doe says:
Effectively: “John, take care of Mary.”

Do you believe Jesus had biological siblings? If so, how many?

 

[jane_doe]

Do you believe Jesus had biological siblings? If so, how many?

Yes, exact number unknown.

 

[JMM1957]

Yes, exact number unknown.

Right, people who believe Jesus had biological siblings usually say that he had at least several, some being male and female both. So, I have to ask, why would Jesus leave Mary with John instead of one of his siblings taking her into their house, after all it is their own mother?

 

[jane_doe]

Right, people who believe Jesus had biological siblings usually say that he had at least several, some being male and female both. So, I have to ask, why would Jesus leave Mary with John instead of one of his siblings taking her into their house, after all it is their own mother?

I’m not in the habit of questioning why the Lord does what He does.

 

[Hatikvah]

Do you believe Jesus had biological siblings? If so, how many?

It is an interesting thought to entertain. I’d like to say “yes,” for emphasis on the humanity of Christ in that He is like us in humanity and “gets us” (Hebrews 4:5), but I do not know. As I’ve said, Luther maintained that Mary was a perpetual virgin, and so did many Protestant scholars up until the 19th century or so. The Wikipedia page lists some support for it from the Christian people:

By the fourth century, the doctrine was widely supported by the Church Fathers, and by the seventh century it had been affirmed in a number of ecumenical councils…

Some early Protestant reformers such as Martin Luther supported the doctrine, and **founding figures of Anglicanism such as Hugh Latimer and Thomas Cranmer **"followed the tradition that they had inherited by accepting Mary as ‘ever virgin’…

The doctrine of perpetual virginity is currently maintained by some Anglican and Lutheran theologians. In addition, John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist Church, affirmed the perpetual virginity of Mary.

Some of the more radical skeptic/agnostic scholars and textual critics like Bart D. Ehrman say yes and also maintain that the early Church believed in Adoptionism (most other scholars say otherwise).

So if ecumenical councils stated it, surely the Spirit was trying to affirm something about it. I’m inconclusive right now, but that tipped the scales.

 

[JMM1957]

I’m not in the habit of questioning why the Lord does what He does.

That’s good enough for me.