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Padres1969
Guest
Not to put the kibosh on a potential conversation, but can we have a thread that doesn’t devolve into an abortion discussion?
This thread is dealing with Eucharist. Lets try to keep it that way.
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This thread is dealing with Eucharist. Lets try to keep it that way.
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Thorolfr
Guest
It seems to me that the Catholic position on this issue sounds like they’re saying to other Christians, “We kind of think you’re phony Christians and we think you’re Eucharist/communion is phony (even if you believe in the Real Presence), and that you’re rituals are phony (although well-intentioned). Even your clergy are fake. You’re denomination (and don’t you dare call us a denomination) is just a pale reflection of us.” Of course, there are plenty of Protestants or non-Catholics, too, who also believe that Catholics or members of any denomination other than their own are not real Christians. So it’s often a two-way street.
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Modern_Revert
Guest
These are some of the things I’ve heard from non-Catholics in my lifetime:
Catholics aren’t Christian.
Catholics worship Mary.
Catholics worship statues.
Catholics place obstacles between themselves and God (presumably, the statues).
Catholics are idolators.
The word Catholic isn’t in the bible, so only Baptists, Jehovahs, Adventists, etc. deserve to be called churches.
The Catholic church is a church of Man, not of God.
Catholics ideas about salvation are wrong.
“I didn’t have a real relationship with God when I was Catholic because I only recited memorized prayers and went thru motions that have nothing to do with what Jesus taught”.
Catholics ARE Christian, but priests and the Pope are not.
Catholics used to be called Romans and they threw Christians into the lion’s den.
The hierarchy is evil (hmm) so the rest of the church is evil too.
Overheard a women telling her soon-to-be daughter-in-law “we want to have our own minister at the church, because we’re Christian”.
Catholics saints aren’t real, only regular people who love Jesus are saints.
Some Catholics I know are Christian, but most are not.
Yet they want to take Communion at a Catholic church?
Catholics aren’t Christian.
Catholics worship Mary.
Catholics worship statues.
Catholics place obstacles between themselves and God (presumably, the statues).
Catholics are idolators.
The word Catholic isn’t in the bible, so only Baptists, Jehovahs, Adventists, etc. deserve to be called churches.
The Catholic church is a church of Man, not of God.
Catholics ideas about salvation are wrong.
“I didn’t have a real relationship with God when I was Catholic because I only recited memorized prayers and went thru motions that have nothing to do with what Jesus taught”.
Catholics ARE Christian, but priests and the Pope are not.
Catholics used to be called Romans and they threw Christians into the lion’s den.
The hierarchy is evil (hmm) so the rest of the church is evil too.
Overheard a women telling her soon-to-be daughter-in-law “we want to have our own minister at the church, because we’re Christian”.
Catholics saints aren’t real, only regular people who love Jesus are saints.
Some Catholics I know are Christian, but most are not.
Yet they want to take Communion at a Catholic church?
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Padres1969
Guest
Pretty much. The RCC doesn’t term it like that today, particularly in the post Vatican II world where Ecumenism is viewed as important. But your blunt way of putting it, is pretty much the truth of how the RCC views non-Catholics and their services even today. Even if they’re not quite as blunt about it as they were before Vatican II.
I don’t think they’d call the rest of us “non-Christians” as they do accept our baptisms for instance (if done according to the Trinitarian formula). But they do view our Eucharist as phony, particularly those of us who profess the real presence like most Anglicans, Lutherans, etc… (denominations who have simply “memorial” communion aren’t really claiming anything the RCC would necessarily disagree with). And they do view our clergy as lacking proper holy orders, this in particular aimed at denominations like the Anglicans/Episcopalians who are one of the few non-Catholic Christian faiths to claim apostolic succession. And by extension Catholics do see non-Catholic masses/services in particular as “phony” as an extension of us all having what they view as invalid clergy. And the RCC does view all other Christian faiths lacking the fullness of truth in one way or another.
So yes your blunt summation is more or less accurate. Which may be the crux of how some non-Catholics run into issues when denied things like Eucharist. They are being told indirectly by being denied Eucharist that the Christian faith they belong to is somehow lacking according to the RCC. For some it may be jarring because it’s the first time they’ve been told something like that. For others their consternation may come because they aren’t secure in their own faith so to be told as such makes them wonder. For others as we’ve seen in this thread who for family or other reasons do regularly attend mass it can simply be a matter of being alienating. Ultimately this is why I repeat that if you can’t accept what the RCC teaches about you, or it causes problems in your life to hear that when you attend, it might be best to avoid attending a Catholic Church if you don’t have to.
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Modern_Revert
Guest
Uh…wanting to partake of the Eucharist whilst holding such opinions of Catholicism.
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TC3033
Guest
And how did you get that from the OP?
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TC3033
Guest
I hate to nitpick the first line…but I’m going to do it anyway.
Many Protestants also celebrate communion every week, and each week that communion time is what the entire service revolves around (like at my home non-denom church) as the time we ALL come toghether as Christians…believers…and that’s why for many of us, denial of communion (especially the first time or two to Mass) is such a culture shock.
To many of us, it’s saying we’re not welcome to the Lord’s table and that we’re not part of God’s children.
I’ve read on here, non-Catholics need to understand…non-Catholics need to understand…non-Catholics need to understand…and I get that. But put the shoe on the other foot for a minute. It seems like others can’t or won’t understand the other side of it. Either they don’t want to, or…because they didn’t grow up as part of it…It’s really…really hard to grasp…which is what a lot of Evangelical, non-denom…struggle with as well. They can’t wrap their head around denying communion to Baptized Christians, but they probably didn’t grow up with it. I’ve said it on here before…it was an absolute culture shock,the first time I was “denied”.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
Thank you for your words, TC. They were very poignant. I come from an ‘Open Table’ church and when I go to a Catholic Mass, it feels to me as if I received a dinner invitation only to be told that I am not welcome to any of the food. Jesus welcomes all to my table.
A recent funeral I went to was at a Catholic church, ironically for a non-Catholic. Mass was celebrated and the priest, looking out over the hundreds of people, recognized that there were many non-Catholics present. He said that the official rules were that only Catholics could receive, but that if anyone in their deepest soul were to come to him for Christ’s Body and Blood, they would be freely given.
God bless him. I received.
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Gorgias
Guest
Hmm… ok, let’s see…
The Catholic Church tells Catholics that they should not receive communion at non-Catholic (or Orthodox) services of Christian denominations precisely because it leads to scandal and confusion. That is to say, it’s not a sin because it’s not the Eucharist – it’s sinful because it leads people to say “well, if it’s OK for them, it must be OK by the Catholic Church!”
But, you’ve taken it a step further: you’re telling us that these Catholics explicitly deny the teachings of the Church – that is, everyone knows that they aren’t doing what the Church asks them to do. So… how is it that they’re an example of what Catholics should do?
In any case, Catholics shouldn’t confuse their non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters by making it seem like participation in non-Catholic communion is OK by the Church. That particular kind of confusion reasonably can lead non-Catholic Christians to expect some sort of ‘reciprocity’.
In the case of your friends, though, who dissent from Catholic teaching… do the non-Catholics who see them participating in Protestant communion presume that they’re doing what Catholics are supposed to do? If so, then why?
Right – so, the real problem isn’t what Catholics believe… the problem is that some Protestants project their belief system on the Catholic Church. Is that really fair?
I would propose a different example.
Maybe think of it as when you haven’t been invited to the family’s dinner, but for a visit as more distant relatives. You spend time with your relatives, but when the visit’s over, it’s over. Maybe you wouldn’t think of inviting them over without serving them dinner, but for your hosts, family dinner is a family thing. It doesn’t say “you’re not relatives” or “you’re not valued”, but it does say that there’s a difference in the relationship between ‘distant relatives’ and the ‘nuclear family’. Would you, then, sit at the table and insist that they affirm that you’re a member of their nuclear family, when in reality, you don’t share in that particular relationship? After all, if they don’t invite cousins to dinner, that’s their choice… isn’t it? (I mean, you might characterize it as ‘uncharitable’, and that’s your right to spin it as you choose, but if they see value in restricting dinner to mom/dad/kids, that’s their privilege, right?)
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MT1926
Guest
I hate to nitpick …but I just can’t resist.
First let me say I do understand the other side of it, and I am sorry that there is hurt feelings over differences. However, there are some major differences and I am Catholic, therefore bound by the beliefs and the “rules” of the Catholic Church. Every Catholic must ask before receiving Communion: Am I in a state where I can receive worthily? As an earlier poster stated. Every Catholic must explicitly affirm that he believes that this is truly the Body of Christ when he receives the Eucharist.
As I stated in another post I was not Catechized well as a youth, however when I went to a cousins church I was well aware of the fact that I was a guest in their house. I was willing to sit their and recite the same prayers that I was familiar with but I knew fair well to participate further meant that I was actually stating that I believe everything that church teaches. Which I didn’t, even though I wasn’t catechized well. It was common sense to me. I think this is what the whole issue comes down to. We live in a world where we want what we want, and common sense has now become uncommon sense.
Let’s use this uncommon sense and go a little further. We both know that you could come to my Church right now sit down on my left and go to communion. No one would have a clue that you weren’t Catholic. Now on the right of me is a guy that committed adultery last night and he goes to communion also, no one would no this but him. I think the point I am trying to make is the Church can’t deny communion to Baptized Christians or to Catholics. Either you can understand the difference and respect that difference or a loved one can explain that difference to you. I don’t see how there is any other way someone would not you weren’t Catholic. In both of these cases the ball is in your court. Even if you choose not to respect the difference, Jesus told us to love and respect each other. So if you were asked by a loved one not go to communion because you were not Catholic would you really need a reason other than that? I wouldn’t. I might ask them later to explain further, but just can’t wrap my mind around disagreeing with a loved one. Saying that it doesn’t matter whether I believe it is or isn’t the true Body of Christ, your opinions are of no value to me and I should be allowed to participate. Love needs to be a 2 way street and sometimes we need to lovingly accept the differences and not hold onto our grudges.
God Bless
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TC3033
Guest
Of course they do. Why, because they don’t know that Catholics aren’t supposed to. I didn’t know that until I started posting here.
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JustaServant
Guest
I understand what you are saying because I used to be evangelical once. I believed at the time, it was legalistic and elitist restriction. It required a re-thinking in how I viewed the word ‘legalistic’ for me.
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Kliska
Guest
I think it is important to make it clear that some of those who are denied communion in the RCC aren’t always feeling anger, or resentment, or a lack of understanding, but rather a profound sadness at a split in the body at the Table of the Lord. If we are not considered a part of the body, so much the sadder. I don’t think many have the attitude such as, “it is not their right to restrict communion from other baptized Christians,” but rather, “Is it right to restrict communion from other baptized Christians?” Obviously there are differences in opinion on the matter, which is neither here nor there. But, the feelings this brings up, esp. between those such as spouses where one is Catholic and the other is not, are very real feelings that are there for good reason.
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Memaw
Guest
I was responding to another post, is that OK with you?? God Bless, MemawNot to put the kibosh on a potential conversation, but can we have a thread that doesn’t devolve into an abortion discussion?
This thread is dealing with Eucharist. Lets try to keep it that way.
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Memaw
Guest
If one has not been “well catechized” as a youth, we still have the obligation to learn about our Catholic Faith as an adult. Catholic Answers and EWTN are great places to learn. God Bless, Memaw
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In_His_Grace
Guest
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Stilldreamn
Guest
Sometimes Catholics in the pews aren’t terribly well catechized and act slighted if I don’t receive, even after I have gently explained that I am Lutheran. Unfortunately this occurred a few times when I have gone to Mass (Feast days/Ash Wednesday) with Catholic co-workers .
I think they didn’t want me to feel left out and I appreciate their tact, but it’s hard for non-Catholics to abide by closed communion when some are assured that “It’s OK, things are different now” in one instance and then forbidden in another.
I don’t know what the solution is because we face the same issues in the LCMS. Since I approach with a repentant and contrite heart and surely discern the Real Body and Blood of our Lord I don’t think I am receiving to my judgement; but I would be breaking the house rules of the Catholic Church and it could, indeed, be very bad for a person that believes the Supper is only a symbol.
I think they didn’t want me to feel left out and I appreciate their tact, but it’s hard for non-Catholics to abide by closed communion when some are assured that “It’s OK, things are different now” in one instance and then forbidden in another.
I don’t know what the solution is because we face the same issues in the LCMS. Since I approach with a repentant and contrite heart and surely discern the Real Body and Blood of our Lord I don’t think I am receiving to my judgement; but I would be breaking the house rules of the Catholic Church and it could, indeed, be very bad for a person that believes the Supper is only a symbol.
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TC3033
Guest
Agreed 100%, especially the bolded.
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Padres1969
Guest
Well this definitely doesn’t help that’s for sure. And it gets more confusing when you had many churches, particularly in the US, that were for a long time inviting non-Catholics to come up for a blessing in lieu of receiving communion (so it was being explicitly said “don’t come up for communion if you’re not Catholic, but do come up for a blessing” in many cases during the announcements). My childhood parish was one of these churches that did this in the '80’s and '90’s.
But in recent years, particularly since the modification of the mass, I’ve noticed fewer and fewer Catholic Churches in the US that invite non-Catholics to come up for a blessing (since as I understand it they weren’t supposed to be doing that in the first place). Which if you were used to being offered that blessing adds yet another confusing dimension to this situation. If you’re no longer able to come up for a blessing, and you’re used to being involved in that way, it gets even more difficult I’d think to be left behind during communion. And/or for poorly catechized Catholics, or Catholics who simply ignore Catholic teaching on the matter, to leave their non-Catholic fellows behind.
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