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Padres1969
Guest
I think it’s a stretch, at least with my sister, to assume she was taught this definitively (or at least with any force it would have stuck). She was taught in the 80’s when catechism was largely a joke (at least in our home parish). Other than occasionally going to Reconciliation as part of a class exercise for forced face to face confession with a priest (one of whom turned out to be a pedophile) where students generally just made up expected “sins” and stated them, confession was not pushed. It was not available before any of the Sunday masses and was only available for one hour on select Saturday afternoons. Most people I know did not ever make the effort to go down to church on the Saturdays and no one thought anything of it nor was anything ever said by the priests.
As for missing mass being a sin, I suspect almost the entire congregation of my childhood parish received communion at least once with that particular sin on their souls.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Yeah, but so what? Are we being graded on a curve?
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Padres1969
Guest
So what? It’s a mortal sin in the RCC to miss mass as Meemaw points out. And it’s one an entire congregation has not only committed, but then received communion against RCC teaching after having been guilty of, without absolution, compounding the sin.
Point being that it’s very common for Catholics to either be unaware of the catechism, or simply ignore it. Which then tying it back to the thread topic, can be very confusing for non-Catholics who aren’t aware of Catholic teaching when you’re seeing large numbers of Catholics who don’t know Catholic teaching.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Well, to be fair, if one is unaware that this is a sin then a confession (even if this particular one is omitted) would absolve. In addition, generally one isn’t to compare himself to another’s fault to justify oneself, right?
Agreed. Catholics need to be better educated. A Catholic or non-Catholic that is unaware of Catholic teaching should be made aware. If the person continues to choose sin, that’s on them.
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commenter
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This is a contradiction. You have said that Catholics who accept heresy are (in RCC view) excommunicated. But then these same people are counted as “Catholics” in opinion polls, which is where I assume you got your “60%” figure. Usually these opinion polls are sponsored by media corporations that oppose the Catholic Church. So the polls are done in such a way as to show “look, it’s not just CNN or NY Times saying the bishops are wrong, it’s the Catholic laity who show the Church leaders are out of touch with their own people. Just look at these statistics gathered by an objective, unbiased source (us).”
By rights, the opinion polls should reflect that 100% of Catholics currently accept the doctrinal beliefs of the Catholic Faith. Otherwise they wouldn’t get into the sample.
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Padres1969
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And yet that’s now how even the Catholic Church defines who is Catholic. Heck the Catholic Church counts me among their number, even though I’ve not been Catholic for almost 20 years. It’s not just some “opinion polling” from those that want to do the RCC harm that counts those who aren’t 100% faithful as Catholic. The RCC itself does the same thing. And for good reason, if they only counted those that are 100% faithful to Catholic teaching as Catholic, the number of Catholics in this world would likely hover somewhere around 0.
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patmiron
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It’s interesting that some Protestant churches identify themselves as"Fellowship "churchesI FEEL excluded because I grew up in a community of inclusion. Like I said a dozen times in this thread, it’s possible that this FEELING may never go away from some because it flies in the face of what they are taught. That doesn’t mean we don’t accept it.
I guess we’ve attended different services then. I’ve never been to one where fellowship is the emphasis during the service. 100% right up to, and 100% right after and 100% during the week (which is much different than the Catholic faith) but never the emphasis during.
God bless you
Patrick
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commenter
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The Church counts your Catholic ****baptism ****as permanent. It also counts your Lutheran ****baptism ****as equally permanent, and other Trinitarian denominations. It won’t rebaptize one baptized elsewhere. In some ways, the Church “counts” persons raised Catholic, but perhaps not in the sense you think. If you are hungry, the local Catholic parish has a responsibility to you. But if you are a “lapsed Catholic”, the Church considers you as someone who needs to be evangelized.
You are confusing being “in the Church”, with being “in the Faith”. If you join another denomination, the Church recognizes and respects your choice. We have former RC priests, now ministers, in my area that are invited to participate with RCC in ecumenical events, not as former Catholics, but as the pastor of X church.
Some people baptized Catholic never had any more contact with the Church. They are not held to the standard of beliefs they never heard of. But while the Church has some responsibility for people, it would be wrong to consider their current views as forming the “sense of the faithful” if their views are overwhelmingly the product of CNN, Islam, or something else. It is fair to ask “Among those who ****currently **** accept the Catholic Faith, how many think married men should routinely be ordained?” Or it is fair to ask Catholics their suggestions for Pope Francis. But if they think the pope is the AntiChrist, no, their view would not “count”. If an opinion poll is done by Mission to Catholics, the NY Times, or other anti Catholic entity, the poll results are agenda driven thus worthless.
Your last sentence is so inaccurate, so uncharitable, it would be despicable, except forgiven because of your countless posts that ****are ****accurate and charitable and intelligent.
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Padres1969
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How so? Man is fallible and sinful. Catholic teaching is extensive and from God no? Man can never achieve 100% faithfulness to God’s will. Even the Pope himself is not perfect as he’s just a man. We all do the best we can, but no one is perfect 100% of the time.
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rcwitness
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Sounds right to me. I think that Catholicism acknowledges the promise that Christ is “able” to affirm the faithful through a lawful judgment. It is based on Christ’s Teaching that Peter, and also the collective Apostles were given authority to declare moral Truths for the faithful. Whoever obeys these declarations is obeying Jesus, and whoever disobeys them is considered in excommunication from the Church.
Now, local churches (and perhaps even those separated from Rome’s Bishop) are certainly able to conform to Jesus, and offer His true judgment. But the guarantee that Jesus promised is only found in the successor of Peter, and the college of Bishops in Communion with him.
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TC3033
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Yep, never been to one and honestly don’t know any in my area… I think there’s a church somewhere around here with “friendship” in their name.
I think sometimes churches will put “fellowship”, “friendship”, “community” in their name to put out there that all are welcome.I didn’t say it doesn’t happen, or that some Protestant churches don’t but my experience’s have been yes 100% before and 100% after service it’s about fellowshipping, but during service it’s all about Christ.
IDK if that somehow was supposed to negate my experience?
Man…I forgot about this thread, it really delivered.
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PJM
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This reply reply is VERY much unlike me *
BUT of depends on your definition of “perfection”
Matt.5:[48] You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
My friend ths would not be in the bible if it weren’t at least a possibility
I think what you may be missing here are the Sacrament of KNOWN forgiveness of our sins; Catholic Sacramental Confession: 1 Jn 1: 8-9; 1 Jn 5:16-17 & John 20:19-23; and God;s grace and it POSSIBLE effects upon us.
While we “may not” be able to “be perfect”; we certainly CAN be “perfected” through Sacramental Confession and God’s grace:thumbsup:
Continued Blessings
Patrick*
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PJM
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My friend, as stated above your statement on excommunication does not seem to be completely correct. Could you please expand with evidence on this claim?
Perhaps I’m just not understanding you correctly?
GBY
Partick
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PJM
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THANKS for sharing!Yep, never been to one and honestly don’t know any in my area… I think there’s a church somewhere around here with “friendship” in their name.
I didn’t say it doesn’t happen, or that some Protestant churches don’t but my experience’s have been yes 100% before and 100% after service it’s about fellowshipping, but during service it’s all about Christ.
IDK if that somehow was supposed to negate my experience?
Man…I forgot about this thread, it really delivered.
GBY
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rcwitness
Guest
Matthew 18My friend, as stated above your statement on excommunication does not seem to be completely correct. Could you please expand with evidence on this claim?
Perhaps I’m just not understanding you correctly?
GBY
Partick
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
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patmiron
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rcwitness
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Actually, I found it in the
Bible
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ltwin
Guest
Haven’t read all the replies, but I did want to share my experiences with Lord’s Supper as an evangelical Christian familiar with the non-denominational church world.
Typically, Communion is offered to all who profess faith in Christ Jesus as Savior and Lord. We are warned to repent of sin and forgive those who have wronged us (so as not to bring judgment upon ourselves). However, one’s church or denomination is not made a factor in whether one can participate in Communion.
The reason for this open stance is that it is assumed that all people who have faith in Christ are part of the one and only Church of which Christ is the head. It does not matter if you are or are not a card carrying member of the right institutional “visible” church. What matters is have you been joined to the body of Christ by faith.
Therefore, it can be disconcerting for someone familiar with this common evangelical, non-denominational view to encounter a church that practices closed communion. The message they get (which is not entirely unreasonable) is that they are not members of the body of Christ, that they are not considered “real Christians”.
Consider this. As a Pentecostal Christian, I have personally gone to my local southern Episcopalian church (where very few people even know me) and when its time for the Eucharist the nice ladies acting as the Episcopalian version of ushers politely invite me to take Communion in something like the following:
“You know you’re welcome to receive Holy Communion as long as you’re a baptized Christian”. I tell them thank you, but no thanks because I’m with my brother who is not baptized and so can’t partake… They then tell me, “Well, you’re still more than welcome to receive a blessing from the priest”.
So, many Protestants take for granted their basic unity as members of the invisible Church. It’s jarring for some to realize the Catholic Church strongly objects to this invisible unity, and in many ways, denies that we are united (Just as some Protestants are also quick to deny that Catholics are even somewhat Christian).
Typically, Communion is offered to all who profess faith in Christ Jesus as Savior and Lord. We are warned to repent of sin and forgive those who have wronged us (so as not to bring judgment upon ourselves). However, one’s church or denomination is not made a factor in whether one can participate in Communion.
The reason for this open stance is that it is assumed that all people who have faith in Christ are part of the one and only Church of which Christ is the head. It does not matter if you are or are not a card carrying member of the right institutional “visible” church. What matters is have you been joined to the body of Christ by faith.
Therefore, it can be disconcerting for someone familiar with this common evangelical, non-denominational view to encounter a church that practices closed communion. The message they get (which is not entirely unreasonable) is that they are not members of the body of Christ, that they are not considered “real Christians”.
Consider this. As a Pentecostal Christian, I have personally gone to my local southern Episcopalian church (where very few people even know me) and when its time for the Eucharist the nice ladies acting as the Episcopalian version of ushers politely invite me to take Communion in something like the following:
“You know you’re welcome to receive Holy Communion as long as you’re a baptized Christian”. I tell them thank you, but no thanks because I’m with my brother who is not baptized and so can’t partake… They then tell me, “Well, you’re still more than welcome to receive a blessing from the priest”.
So, many Protestants take for granted their basic unity as members of the invisible Church. It’s jarring for some to realize the Catholic Church strongly objects to this invisible unity, and in many ways, denies that we are united (Just as some Protestants are also quick to deny that Catholics are even somewhat Christian).
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Duane1966
Guest
A hypothetical question for you. After the Council of Jerusalem, if some of the Jewish Christians in Antioch refused to obey the decision of the Apostles because they truly believed the decision was wrong, and they started their own "denomination", teaching that the Gentile converts still had to follow all the Mosaic Laws, do you think that Paul would give those that rejected the council communion?
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