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Non-Catholic friends, why do some (not all) - non-Catholics believe and disseminate the idea that the Catholic Church apostatized........
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I don’t recall your response to that part of my post. But Ok.
I don’t either. And I agree.
I agree, and I have, in the past, defended the CC when others wrongly accuse. However, when leaders within the Church were wrong, that can’t be justified either, and the fact is that their wrongdoings had equal blame in the division of the Church.
Be careful here. The Catholic Catechism says in 818
*"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272 * I know that many who followed the rebellious men against the CC did repent and returned soon after they beging to see their erros. Many left Jesus because of what He claimed. I wonder if they were justified?
No, my friend, your words are often filled with triumphalism and at times, polemics.
It doesn’t have to fly with you. I appreciate the invitation, and I pray for the day when our divisions are healed.
My attitude? Come now. The entire post was spent answering Joe’s question, and defending the CC from those who say she apostacized.
Have a blessed Christmas,
Jon
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wisdomseeker
Guest
No, my friend, your words are often filled with triumphalism and at times, polemics.
It doesn’t have to fly with you. I appreciate the invitation, and I pray for the day when our divisions are healed.
My attitude? Come now. The entire post was spent answering Joe’s question, and defending the CC from those who say she apostacized.
Have a blessed Christmas,
Jon
I wish you stop repeating the words of the pope. It simply cannot be justified. The Church is not divided. The Church is in a mission today, which is to seek the lost. As for you, you knowingly rejects her invitation. The pope has said there will be no unity among all into the Church. What the Church is doing is to make it easier for those who sees the Truth and wants to come in.
Like I said, you like to inject among your answers the attitude of equalizing the CC with your congregation as if your congregation had any authority whatsoever when it doesnt, it is deceitfull and lacks Truth.
You wish I’d stop repeating the words of the pope?
The Church is not divided?
This, by definition, is triumphalism. But that said, you are misreading me. As a Lutheran, I believe there is one holy catholic, and apostolic Church. I believe that Church is the congregation of believers, where the word is preached and the sacraments administered. So, even the language you are using to portray me doesn’t fit. That you think me deceitful and lacking in truth is disappointing, and I’m sorry you feel that way.
Jon
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Yeah, you are confused. The Church is not divided. that is what I am talking about, what you believe is not what we Catholics believe. the reason being is that you are not a Catholic. You can be nice all you want, but what I am interested in is the Truth and only the Truth. Jesus wasnt here to make friends, He came to witness to the Truth. When St Peter was bein nice, Jesus immediatly rebuked him because Jesus wasnt interest in someone nice and at the same time getting in the way of the Truth. This seems to be going around a lot these days. People are more interested in being loved, accepted, and being praised for being nice than fighting for the Truth. I think you know me and what I am about.You wish I’d stop repeating the words of the pope?
The Church is not divided?
This, by definition, is triumphalism. But that said, you are misreading me. As a Lutheran, I believe there is one holy catholic, and apostolic Church. I believe that Church is the congregation of believers, where the word is preached and the sacraments administered. So, even the language you are using to portray me doesn’t fit. That you think me deceitful and lacking in truth is disappointing, and I’m sorry you feel that way.
Jon
What you believe doesnt really matter. what it matters is the Truth. You believe in the CC yet you deny all she teaches. how can you even say the Creed when you dont even belief what the Church teaches. Don’t you think you are deceiving yourself?
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PJM
Guest
Here friend is the Logical and SADLY TRUTHULL responce.
The CC continues to be the target of every non-catholic religion. WHY?
Not simply because we contine to be th largest nd MOST influencail; but BEACUSE we are the only Chuch founded [AND DESIRED} by God. Ifthey cn’t or don’t discrdit u; then there already built on Quicksand faiths, will sink even deeper and even faster.
There are in EXCESS of 100 references to ONLY One New Church; One New Faith [set of beliefs] and One new Covenant; and they all reference the CC.
**Acts.20:28 **“Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church SINGULAR] of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. “
** 1 Cor. 1: 10”** I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.”
**Mt. 16: 15 ** He [Jesus] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I [singular] tell you, you are Peter, [singular] and on this rock [singular] I will build my [singular] church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. singular] 19 I [God singular] will give you [singular] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you [singular] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
**Eph. 2:19-20 **“So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular[/COLOR]] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. “
**Eph. 4: 4 -8“**There is one body Only One Church] and one Spirit, Only One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, Only One God] ONLY one faith, Only One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. "
While thse can be ignored the TRUTH cannot be changed.
God’s continued Blesings,
Pat
Let’s see:
Ruptures to the unity of Christ’s body!!!
At least not in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
I try.
Somehow, I’ve never viewed the two - being nice and fighting for the truth - as being mutually exclusive.
Oh, it matters a lot. “For God so loved the world that He gave HIs only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.”
And John 3:16 is the truth.
You’re bordering on eighth commandment issues here. I think you know quite well that I do not deny all she teaches. I affirm much of what she teaches.
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.
Nothing there I disagree with.
No.
Jon
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Do you see my friend you are confused, the Church is not divided. Correct if am wrong, do you really think that the Church needed martin luther to be One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church? I dont think so. She only needs her Master our Lord to affirm her and He did when He said, "the gates of hell would not prevail against her.’ this includes those who rebel against her and leave her. They have no say so once they leave the Church.
It is because of the bishop of Rome that the world knows that there is one authoritative Body of Christ on this earth and that is why the whole world has their eyes in the CC. It is the CC that the world want to see disappering but it isnt going to happen because man has no power agaisnt God. It is the CC that sets the Laws of God to the world nobody else can.
Protestantism is divided among themselves but they are not Catholics, so it doesnt count. It would be wonderfull if they recognize their erros and stop multiplying and come into the Church in obedience to Christ but they dont.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Jerusha…
Yes the Restorationist movement is based on hate.
Christ said you cannot say you love God and hate your neighbor because then you are a liar.
I notice how certain fundamentalist programs keep giving talks on the Old Testament but so little draw on the New Testament and the Epistle…if it is true, then hate has blinded them Christ and His Word.
And this is why I question Restorationists and their beginnings…because they are not based on Christ but a reaction to Catholicism and Christianity in general. The only way some can side step and come across as benevolent is to create new parts of the Bible…
Yes the Restorationist movement is based on hate.
Christ said you cannot say you love God and hate your neighbor because then you are a liar.
I notice how certain fundamentalist programs keep giving talks on the Old Testament but so little draw on the New Testament and the Epistle…if it is true, then hate has blinded them Christ and His Word.
And this is why I question Restorationists and their beginnings…because they are not based on Christ but a reaction to Catholicism and Christianity in general. The only way some can side step and come across as benevolent is to create new parts of the Bible…
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pismopal
Guest
…and to create a leadership position for self appointed experts on their own particular version of Christianity. Creating new sects of non Catholic Christianity has become a cottage industry. ( pardon me for piggybacking…Merry Christmas!)
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KathleenGee
Guest
Pismopal,
And Merry Christmas to you!!
America has the greatest fractured Christianity as I stated on another post today. The biggest help will be prayer and penance. Our Lord’s prayer, besides the Our Father, was that we would be one.
And Merry Christmas to you!!
America has the greatest fractured Christianity as I stated on another post today. The biggest help will be prayer and penance. Our Lord’s prayer, besides the Our Father, was that we would be one.
R
rainman10
Guest
Luther had valid complaints against the people of the Church, but not the Church itself. And from what I understand, the reason for his excommunication was because he then began to challenge and change doctrine. The Church has protected and stayed true to the doctrines it has taught.
And as far as 817 of the Catechism, “for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame”, the emphasis is on men of both sides, not the Church.
I do pray that someday we can “drink from the same chalice and gather together around the same altar”.
BTW, Jon, I appreciate your honesty and the kindness in your responses to everyone, even those who have a very challenging approach. I know I am guilt of that sometimes too.
J
joe370
Guest
Hey wisdomseeker, you said the following to JonNC:
“Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.”
Scripture tells us to speak the truth, but scripture also tells us to do so with love, charity and humility. I use to go to non-Catholic forums, as a former non-Catholic, seeking guidance, regarding my possible enrollment into the Catholic church, and they basically treated me in the same gruff manner, which is why I no longer participate in those forums. All you are going to do is push people away when you employ such tactics. I am not judging you… just an observation brother…to each their own…
Peace and merry Christmas.
I agree with you that “God has given His authority to one Church” but why would you say the preceding to Jon??? He has been both amiable, gracious and quite conciliatory (something I probably wouldn’t have been if I were in his shoes) - at times when you were being ridiculously gruff? I don’t get it friend. What happened to adhering to the following sage advice by Peter:
“Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.”
Scripture tells us to speak the truth, but scripture also tells us to do so with love, charity and humility. I use to go to non-Catholic forums, as a former non-Catholic, seeking guidance, regarding my possible enrollment into the Catholic church, and they basically treated me in the same gruff manner, which is why I no longer participate in those forums. All you are going to do is push people away when you employ such tactics. I am not judging you… just an observation brother…to each their own…
Peace and merry Christmas.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
I have done nothing but speak the Truth. what I said I stand by it.
here are some quotes for you.
**
Ezekiel 3:18-19, “Suppose I tell you that wicked people will surely die, but you don’t warn them or speak out so that they can change their wicked ways in order to save their lives. Then these wicked people will die because of their sin, but I will hold you responsible for their deaths. But suppose you warn the wicked people, and they don’t turn from their wicked ways. Then they will die because of their sin, but you will save yourself.”**
Being nice doesnt include beating around the bushes or using deceitfull tatics to get the person to adhere to what you believe. I am direct, yes, I am. I have said nothing that is offensive if the person accepts the Truth.
"Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it".
Pope St. Felix III (483-492)
Perhaps you will judge Jesus for saying things that has caused so many to leave Him.
If I speaking the Truth clearly and direct is offensive to others than perhaps we should also deny God before atheists since they find offensive to speak about God.
I am just fine with these verses of Sacred Scriptures.
**Romans 2:5-8, “But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.”
Psalms 95:10-11, “For forty years I loathed that generation and said, they are a people who err in heart, and they do not regard my ways. Therefore I swore in my anger that they should not enter my rest.” **
J
joe370
Guest
I agree with you that another church founded by man is totally unnecessary, and that, eventually, ML’s behavior took a turn for the worse, but ML was right about the indulgence abuses, and was ignored by Pope Leo X, for the simple fact that Leo had a non ecclesiastical agenda at times, although he did achieve many good things; he simply took his eye off the ball, and the effect was the reformation. Pope Leo X was just as rebellious, at times, as head of the CC, by ignoring the indulgence abuses, reveling in earthly pleasures and nonsensical matters, and, in doing so, he failed to fully grasp the duties of his Petrine office. Ultimately, his actions were terribly injurious to the church, and without doubt the cause of the reformation in my opinion. I do not agree with Martin Luther, on a whole host of things, and I certainly don’t believe that he should have left the church; he should have put his trust in God and God’s power to reform HIS church, just as God did, but that reformation really didn’t happen on Leo’s watch. Vigorous measures by Leo could have altered the entire Christian landscape, as we see it today, but, instead of paying serious attention to the indulgence abuse, and to the needs of his flock, he chose to entangle himself in political affairs of hedging, with Charles V and Francis I, allowing the imperial election and the expanding of the states of the Catholic church, to overshadow the rightful objections of Martin Luther, as per the Catholic Church.
But I digress…I was really hoping that a non-Catholic would specifically address the OP…
J
joe370
Guest
OK brother…Hope you are having a great Christmas…Like I said: it was just an observation, and I agree with you on all points of doctrinal truth, for the simple fact that we both defer to the authority of the Catholic Church, but it just seems that your method, at times, seems a tad forceful, but if it works for you then that’s cool…
Peace brother…
Peace brother…
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
Perhaps you should read more about this so called abuse of indulgences. You might be surprised to find out that this has been greatly exagerated by the deformers as a way to justify their actions. But the point being is that what ml did is not justified and caused much hate for Catholics who were forced to abandon the Faith. You might need to find out how many Catholics were killed in Rome by the righteous deformers who condemned the Catholic Church for indulgences. So, it was wrong what he did and it is still wrong today. I am not the one to let protestants go on believing that their religion is equal to the CC because it is not and they need to know this with clear voice and certainty. We need to get back on the game and defend the Church just like our Fathers did from the begenning. Enough with the ambiguity. Too much confusion is not going to convert no one.
**
29 Shall I not visit for these things, says the Lord? Or shall not my soul take revenge on such a nation? 30 Astonishing and wonderful things have been done in the land. 31 The prophets prophesied falsehood, and the priests clapped their hands: and my people loved such things: what then shall be done in the end thereof? Jeremiah V 29,30**
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GodPilot
Guest
I find these discussions interesting. Non-Catholics will affirm that anyone who confesses with their mouth, and believe in their heart that Jesus is Lord has eternal life. This of course means a life of obedience, and fruit will show in their lives. I have a problem with those who adhere to a “confession of Christ”, then lead a hedonist, or rebellious lifestyle, no matter what their church affiliation. A long time ago a wise man of faith cautioned me, “Beware of any church that says it is the only true church”. There are more than a few churches that fall into this category.
The issue of Truth is the Gospel of Christ. The gates of hell will not prevail against the Gospel, which frees men’s souls. At Ceasarea, the statement made by Jesus was profound, because the gates there held people captive, yet the Gospel cannot be kept out by any ‘gate’. People held captive by the ‘gates of Hell’, which do keep people bound, can be set free from this path of destruction by the freeing power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
As for the Apostacy of Catholics, I agree that there has not been a rejection of faith, and this term is ill-used. I think the issue most Protestants have is the extra-biblical doctrines that Rome has induced that are not biblical, nor were in the early church.
Merry Christmas to all. He was born to die for the sins of us all.
GodPilot
The issue of Truth is the Gospel of Christ. The gates of hell will not prevail against the Gospel, which frees men’s souls. At Ceasarea, the statement made by Jesus was profound, because the gates there held people captive, yet the Gospel cannot be kept out by any ‘gate’. People held captive by the ‘gates of Hell’, which do keep people bound, can be set free from this path of destruction by the freeing power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
As for the Apostacy of Catholics, I agree that there has not been a rejection of faith, and this term is ill-used. I think the issue most Protestants have is the extra-biblical doctrines that Rome has induced that are not biblical, nor were in the early church.
Merry Christmas to all. He was born to die for the sins of us all.
GodPilot
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wisdomseeker
Guest
And just how would know the Truth except One Church tells you?
And just how do you know if you are being obedient to Christ if you dont know who is teaching the Truth?
The Gospel of Christ? and just who has the authority to enterpret the Gospel correctly?
Wise man to you, to me he is a foolish man because he doesnt know that Jesus found a Church with authority to teach the Truth to every man from age to age in this world. Is he the final authority to teach the Truth about the Gospel. the Gospel alone cannot teach since it needs the right the enterpretation. Do you have the right enterpretation?
Jesus said, the gates of hell wouldnt prevail against the Church, He didnt say the gospels. you accuse the CC of going outside the extra Biblical but you are the one inserting things outside the Gospel.
As Catholics we are free because we have assurance of the Truth since Jesus promised the HS to His Church to lead her into all truth. While protestants wrestling with enterpretation of the Bible to no avail. Do you believe that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ and can only be transformed by a true priest sent by the Church of the Living God, the Pillar and Bullwark of the Truth?
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