Non-Catholic (protestant) authority

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Flatty10

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I know Catholics argue the fact that the pope speaks with the authority of Jesus, having handed on the keys of his kingdom to peter and then the rest of the popes up until today. So basically they believe they have divine authority and the Catholic Church is the one personally founded by Christ himself.

In reguards to other Christian demoniations, what authority do they have when speaking about faith and morals? i dont have much of an understanding and i can’t see how a church could be 100% correct if it was founded by men who didnt agree with some points on the original church?
 
other Christian demoniations
:eek: :confused: Freudian slip, Flatty?😉

I can’t speak for all Protestant denominations, but a seriously Biblical Protestant would tell you that the Scriptures—opened up by the Holy Spirit to the believer—are sufficient, in the vein of:

All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16)

Which also echoes many of the passages in Psalm 119:

I do not turn aside from Thy ordinances, for** Thou** hast taught me.

Through thy precepts I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way.

Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

I will never forget Thy precepts; for by them Thou hast given me life.

Thy testimonies are my delight, they are my counselors.

I have more understanding than all my teachers, for Thy testimonies are my meditation.

I will meditate on Thy precepts, and fix my eyes on Thy ways. I will delight in Thy statutes; I will not forget Thy word.

I cleave to Thy testimonies, O LORD; let me not be put to shame!

I revere Thy commandments, which I love, and I will meditate on Thy statutes.

Thy commandment makes me wiser than my enemies, for it is ever with me.

Through thy precepts I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way.

(My emphases)
 
=Berean2;6556614] I can’t speak for all Protestant denominations, but a seriously Biblical Protestant would tell you that the Scriptures—opened up by the Holy Spirit to the believer—are sufficient, in the vein of:
All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16)
Being complete for every **good work **is not the same as saying “sufficient for salvation” which the scriptures never say.

(My emphases)
 
(. . .)I can’t speak for all Protestant denominations, but a seriously Biblical Protestant would tell you that the Scriptures—opened up by the Holy Spirit to the believer—are sufficient, in the vein of:

All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16)
Hi.

This verse, from 2 Timothy, is commonly used to justify the actions of one man, Martin Luther, who, on his own authority, believed that the Bible itself was a complete work where the fullness of God’s word was present, and sadly has led other good people to receive a less fuller expression of God’s word.

I submit that you are interpreting that incorrectly for you are misinterpreting the complete meaning of this letter written by St. Paul to Timothy, a bishop in the new Church.

First off, let’s example Paul’s meaning in the verse you note, that Scripture is “inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, and training…” The key word here is profitable. *Profitable *simply means “beneficial” or “worthwhile.”

But profitable can not mean what you infer it to be. It can not mean “self-sufficient.” In that same letter to Timothy, St. Paul tells his bishop:

Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard this rich trust with the help of the holy Spirit that dwells within us. (2 Timothy 1:13-14)

St. Paul tells Timothy to adhere to the oral tradition of teachings that Paul himself passed down to a bishop and others.

St. Paul does this many times in Scripture, not to layman, but to people who were assigned as bishops, ordained clergy in the new Christian church, telling them to hold fast to the traditions he has told them and to correct those who want to change the story and have no authority to teach.

[2 Timothy 2:1-2 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/2timothy/2timothy2.htm): So you, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.

*[2 Thessalonians 2:15 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/2thessalonians/2thessalonians2.htm): Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the *traditions *that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. *

The Bible that you know of now was formed, in part, from these oral traditions and letters and would not be compiled formally until nearly four centuries later.

So how can a book, specifically a series of letters from one Apostle to a fellow bishop, deny the importance of oral tradition and apostolic succession (where Apostles first ordained bishops and bishops ordained priests and so on for over 2,000 years)? It can’t. The Bible **reinforces **as well as **records **the importance of Christian teachings both orally *and *in writings.

St. Paul, nor anyone else in Scripture, states that Scripture alone is a complete guide for teaching. This is logical, for Christian Scripture as you have it now did not yet exist.
 
In the United Methodist Church, the General Conference speaks with finality regarding faith, morals, church law, etc.
 
i have spoken to a few protestant people in my life, and they have all agreed, that their own interpretation of scripture is correct, and the catholic church is wrong. Surely if they think the catholic church’s interpretation is wrong, isn’t that a perfect example for how anyone can be wrong in interpreting scripture.

seems like we need some type of authority to deal with it?

READ Acts 8:26-33 or so haha 👍
 
They have none at all.
Well…in terms of authority…we all have some authority as Christians to evangelize, so from that POV, they do have some authority as individuals.

As far as forming ecclesial bodies and developing doctrine…less so, methinks.
 
yeah didn’t Jesus also give the authority to some to forgive sins?

isn’t that a total ignorance of scripture from protestant POV? if my understanding is correct?
 
yeah didn’t Jesus also give the authority to some to forgive sins?

isn’t that a total ignorance of scripture from protestant POV? if my understanding is correct?
Mark 2:7 “Who but God can forgive sins.”

Acts 10:43 “…Everyone who believes in him will have their sins forgiven through his name.”

John 1:29 “Look! There is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.”

John 20:23 “If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you refuse to forgive them, they are unforgiven.”
(The Disciples did not have the power to forgive sins, only God can forgive sins, but Jesus gave them the privilege of telling new believers that their sins have been forgiven because they have accepted Jesus’ message. All believers have this same privilege. W can announce forgiveness of sins with certainty whe we ourselves have found repentance and faith.)
 
Mark 2:7 “Who but God can forgive sins.”

Acts 10:43 “…Everyone who believes in him will have their sins forgiven through his name.”

John 1:29 “Look! There is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.”

John 20:23 “If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you refuse to forgive them, they are unforgiven.”
(The Disciples did not have the power to forgive sins, only God can forgive sins, but Jesus gave them the privilege of telling new believers that their sins have been forgiven because they have accepted Jesus’ message. All believers have this same privilege. W can announce forgiveness of sins with certainty whe we ourselves have found repentance and faith.)
Hi, Kevin. (Nice name, by the way. 🙂 )

Context in reading Scripture is extremely important here. Just as you cannot determine my intent if I were only to say one sentence in a post, neither should we take verses from Scripture out of their complete meaning to the story which surrounds them.

Mark 2:7: Here, Christ encounters a paralytic that was brought to him. When Christ tells the man that his sins are forgiven, it is* the crowd surrounding Christ*, not Christ Himself, who is questioning Christ’s authority to forgive sins. In short, they were calling Christ a blasphemer.

This verse does not invalidate Christ’s ordination of the Apostles to forgive sins. Let’s look at the next verse you noted.

Acts 10:43: Peter is summoned by the centurion Cornelius (himself directed by the Holy Spirit). Realizing that the Spirit guided him to help people he may not otherwise meet, Peter tells the group that Christ shows no partiality. He makes one very important statement that you did not add, so I will show a fuller portion with emphasis added

(. . .)This man God raised (on) the third day and granted that he be visible, not to all the people, but to us, the witnesses chosen by God in advance, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.*** He commissioned us** to preach to the people and testify that he is the one appointed by God as judge of the living and the dead*. To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone who believes in him will receive forgiveness of sins through his name."

Scripture shows most emphatically here that Peter, the leader of the Twelve, knows his place and that of his fellow Apostles as the start of Christ’s continuing ministry. They aren’t merely men who followed Christ around. As Peter’s testimony shows, he states that Christ specifically picked these men and only these men as the leaders, the first bishops. These series of verses, including the one you noted, **reinforces **Apostolic authority to forgive sins, not diminishes it.

John 1:29: Here, it is John the Baptist that points out Christ as He comes to John to receive baptism to start a pattern that we follow today to follow in Christ’s lead.

Baptism remits all sin, mortal, original or venial. You *can * and *do *sin again after baptism, leaving you in a state that is unacceptable to God. You can also confess your sins directly to God, but Christian tradition long before the Protestant Reformation preferred you to confession with a priest, clergy ordained by a bishop, who received their authorities throughout the ages from the Apostles. Again, you’re reinforcing apostolic authority here.

John 20:23: Ten of the Apostles hide away, but the resurrected Christ finds them anyway. His words here have to be fully completed for your partial verse to make sense, so I reproduce them here, again with important points emphasized:

On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

Christ does not come to the masses of lesser disciples to give them or anyone else authority to remit sins after His ascension. Christ comes to see **only **His chosen, the remaining of the Twelve who will be now the Twelve Apostles. The verse you gave, Acts 10:43, further reinforces what Christ did, as Peter tells the people he was speaking to *emphatically *that *Christ came to he and his fellow Apostles and **only *these men.

To support this further, Acts 1:20 shows Peter and the Apostles doing something that is also supported from older scripture. They appoint a new Apostle, a replacement for Judas. If Christ did not given them leadership or authority as the central bishops of his new church, why would we see this in Scripture?
 
In the United Methodist Church, the General Conference speaks with finality regarding faith, morals, church law, etc.
They have organizational authority, but do they believe that their decisions are infallibly guided and protected by the Holy Spirit? If so, why do they think that? I mean no disrespect - I’m just very interested in this topic.

I was Lutheran for over 50 years and left when (in my opinion) they lacked such authority. Lutheran synods are growing further apart from each other. They can’t all be “right”. My own conclusion is reflected in being a Catholic convert.
 
Hi.

This verse, from 2 Timothy, is commonly used to justify the actions of one man, Martin Luther, who, on his own authority, believed that the Bible itself was a complete work where the fullness of God’s word was present, and sadly has led other good people to receive a less fuller expression of God’s word.

St. Paul, nor anyone else in Scripture, states that Scripture alone is a complete guide for teaching. This is logical, for Christian Scripture as you have it now did not yet exist.
Well, roughly 2/3 of it did. Regardless, neither Luther nor Lutherans contend that scripture alone is a “complete guide for teaching”. If this were so, then why would Luther have written two guides for teaching - The Small Catechism, and the Large Catechism? Luther and Lutherans simply contend that all teachers and teachings are subject to scripture. The practice of sola scriptura does not eliminate Tradition, or councils, or creeds. It simply requires that they not contradict scripture.

Jon
 
In fact, I found this quotation in Martin Luther from 1530, years after he had left the Church, “Why are you searching heavenward in search of my keys? Do you not understand, Jesus said, ‘I gave them to Peter. They are indeed the keys of heaven, but they are not found in heaven for I left them on earth.’” This is Jesus talking, “‘Peter’s mouth is my mouth, his tongue is my key case, his keys are my keys. They are an office.’” Luther even saw it, “‘They are a power, a command given by God through Christ to all of Christendom for the retaining and remitting of the sins of men.’” The only thing that Luther won’t admit is that there was succession after Peter died, which is exactly what the keys denote, given their Old Testament background.

taken from here
catholic-pages.com/pope/hahn.asp

not sure how to reference hahha
 
Spencerian

Hi. I must correct you on Mark 2:7 it was not the crowd that questioned Christ it was the teachers of religious law who questioned Christ. “But some teachers of religious law who were sitting there said to themselves, What? This is blaspheny! Who but God can forgive sins!” Now the religious leaders understood correctly that Jesus was claiming Divine Prerogatives, but their judgment of Jesus was wrong. They did not know Jesus is God. But the fact remains that they were right only God can forgive sin.

Acts 1:29 Jesus is ordained of God to be the judge of all–the living and the dead. It does not say the disciples were ordained. The disciples were to “Preach,” it does not say they can forgive sins.Of course he picked the disciples long ago to Learn and to preach his word after he assended to heaven. Now forgive sin. Once again only God can forgive sin.

John 1:29 The apostles only had the authority to listen to their sins, the cannot forgive sins. The sin of the world means everyone’s sin, the sin of each individual. Jesus paid the price for our sin by his death. We receive forgiveness by confessing our sin to Him and ask for forgiveness. Again Only God can forgive sin.

John 20:23 I already explained. So here we go again, Jesus was giving the disciples their Spirit-powered and Spirit-wguided mission, to preach the Good News about Jesus so people’s sins might be forgiven. The disciples “did not” have the power to forgive sins. And still again only God can forgive sin.

Acts 1:20 Peter continued, This was “Predicetd” in the Book of Psalms, where it says, Let his home become decolate, with no one living in it. And again, let his position be given to someone eles" V>16 says Peter said that it was “Necessary” for the “Scriptures” to be “Fulfilled” concerning Judas. This was “Predicted” long ago by the Holy Spirit speaking through Kind David. Peter was fulfilling Scripture. Thats why the had to choose a replacement for Judas. The outlined specific criteria for making the choice. When the finalists had been chosen, the apostles prayed, asking God to guide their selection process.
 
I can’t speak for all Protestant denominations, but a seriously Biblical Protestant would tell you that the Scriptures—opened up by the Holy Spirit to the believer—are sufficient, in the vein of:
How do you know even what questions to ask.

For example, is contraception ok or not? Or is it no longer even a question?
 
Mark 2:7 “Who but God can forgive sins.”

Acts 10:43 “…Everyone who believes in him will have their sins forgiven through his name.”

John 1:29 “Look! There is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.”

John 20:23 “If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you refuse to forgive them, they are unforgiven.”
(The Disciples did not have the power to forgive sins, only God can forgive sins, but Jesus gave them the privilege of telling new believers that their sins have been forgiven because they have accepted Jesus’ message. All believers have this same privilege. W can announce forgiveness of sins with certainty whe we ourselves have found repentance and faith.)
John 20:22-23 “he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

This is spoken by Jesus to the disciples, how else are the disciples to know which sins to forgive and which sins to retain??? You basically stated the same thing in your translation of the Bible. It is indeed God who forgives sin but it is through the priesthood by way of the Holy Spirit that we are forgiven.
 
John 20:22-23 “he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

This is spoken by Jesus to the disciples, how else are the disciples to know which sins to forgive and which sins to retain??? You basically stated the same thing in your translation of the Bible. It is indeed God who forgives sin but it is through the priesthood by way of the Holy Spirit that we are forgiven.
I don’t see why you would need to tell someone other than God your sins, He is the only one who can forgive them. So If I ask God to forgive me my sins or pray that he forgives me of my sins, God won’t hear my asking or my prayers for forgiveness? He will turn a deaf ear because I didn’t go tell a priest first? So what you are saying is that I have to go to a priest tell him my sins then the priest goes and tells the Holy Spirit then the Holy Spirit goes to God and askes to forgive me? I have to go through 2 persons (sort of speaking) before God will forgive me my sins? I think its easer to just go to God myself and ask for forgiveness. Can you provide me where it says that God will only forgive you through the priesthood and by way of the Holy Spirit.
 
You’re right, Rev. You aren’t ready for the jump to Rome if this is how you feel about confession! Better hold off on the ordinariate, you’re parsecs away from the Catholic view of reconciliation…
I don’t see why you would need to tell someone other than God your sins, He is the only one who can forgive them. So If I ask God to forgive me my sins or pray that he forgives me of my sins, God won’t hear my asking or my prayers for forgiveness? He will turn a deaf ear because I didn’t go tell a priest first? So what you are saying is that I have to go to a priest tell him my sins then the priest goes and tells the Holy Spirit then the Holy Spirit goes to God and askes to forgive me? I have to go through 2 persons (sort of speaking) before God will forgive me my sins? I think its easer to just go to God myself and ask for forgiveness. Can you provide me where it says that God will only forgive you through the priesthood and by way of the Holy Spirit.
 
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