Non-Catholic (protestant) authority

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mark_a said:
So how is it that all the original (proper) apostolic Churches got the confession thing wrong too?
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By that logic it would have been wrong for 1500 plus years, I highly doubt that God would have allowed incorrect teachings for that long. It also seems a bit arrogant to say that man could establish a more correct church than Jesus established through his apostles.
 
dnu said:
Where did I say scripture is wrong?

I simply said that we cannot quote-mine a verse (Romans 10:9 for instance), ignore the historical context and draw our own conclusion.

Romans 10:9 was addressed to a specific audience. To this intended audience it means something. As I already mentioned, the historical reality is that this intended audience were all baptized (since it is an absolute requirement to enter the new covenant), confirmed, partaking of the Eurcharist, confessing their sins to the ordained clergy, etc. etc. It doens’t mean any Christian on earth 2,000 years later simply needs to say the sinners prayer and be saved for all eternity because “the bible says” that “if you confess Jesus with your mouth you will be saved.”

These were not born-again evangelicals who had accepted Jesus as their “Lord and personal Savior.” This “gettin saved” and “personal Savior” rubbish is a fabrication of Protestantism that was nowhere in original Church, and to this very day doesn’t exist in the Christian Church. It exists in the Traditions of men within the Protestant sects, but not in the one and only Church Jesus established.

Recognizing that there is a historical context to these letters is what brought me back to Christianity and to recognize the historical reality of the Catholic Church (Protestantism drove me away with their man-made traditions “gettin saved,” “Personal Lord and Savior,” sola scriptura, faith alone, etc.]).

All I’m asking is for you to recognize that there is a historical context to each of these letters that is completely ignored by the vast majority of Protestants and that when we recognized not only who these letters where written to but also what they meant to these people we find that Protestantism doesn’t have a leg to stand on.
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Romans 10:9 For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Purpose of Romans was to introduce Paul to the Romans and to give a sample of his message before he arrived in Rome.
Who is the author: Paul
Who was it written to: The Christians in Rome and believers everywhere.
When was it written: About A.D. 57, from Corinth, as Paul was perparing for his visit to Jerusalem.
Paul had heard of the church in Rome, which had been started by Jews who had come to faith during Pentecost, but had never been there, nor had any of the other apostles. Now many barriers separated them, Paul felt a bond with these believers in Rome. So he sent this letter, Romans, to introduce himself and to make a clear declaration of the faith.
Paul presents the Good News of Salvation that is available to all, regardless of a person’s identity, sin or heritage, We are saved by “grace”, through “faith” in Christ and his finished work. Through him we can stand before God justified, not guilty. With this foundation Paul moves directly into a discussion of freedom thatc comes from being saved, freedom from the power of sin, freedom from the domination of the law, freedom to become like Christ and discover God’s limitless love.
Speaking directly to the Jewish, Paul shares his concerns for them and explains how they fit into God’s plan. God has made the way for Jews and Gentiles to be united in the body of Christ, both groups can praise God for his wisdom and love.
Paul explains what it means to live in complete submission to Christ. Use spiritual gifts to serve others, genuinely love others, and be good citizens. Freedon must be guided by love as we build each other up in the faith being sensitive and helpful to those who are weak.

Where do you see that all were baptized, confirmed, partaking in the Eucharist, confessing their sins to the ordained clergy from Romans 10:9.
Paul said in verse 8 "Salvation that comes from trusting Christ–“which is the message we preach”–…v.9 confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, “you will be saved” That is the message that Paul was preaching or was Paul speaking rubbish when he said that. They were not confessing their sins they were confessing that Jesus is Lord.

Thanks for your history of your conversion but I didn’t ask. I also notice that you are quick to put down on prostants. Now thats not being Christ like or is that also rubbish.
 
It appears that your context is a little skewed, in that specific passage Paul was speaking to people whom if they confessed their belief they would have resulted in hardship in the society they lived in. It is not a confession of sin but a confession of Faith in Jesus. This is a letter to introduce and address specific challenges the Romans are facing in their time. If Paul was to outline the Sacraments in an introduction letter whose to say the Romans would not have begun administering the Sacraments without proper training and ordination. It really rings true the reasoning behind the “laying of hands” and continues the passing of authority through proper ordination.
 
Justin1982 said:
It appears that your context is a little skewed, in that specific passage Paul was speaking to people whom if they confessed their belief they would have resulted in hardship in the society they lived in. It is not a confession of sin but a confession of Faith in Jesus. This is a letter to introduce and address specific challenges the Romans are facing in their time. If Paul was to outline the Sacraments in an introduction letter whose to say the Romans would not have begun administering the Sacraments without proper training and ordination. It really rings true the reasoning behind the “laying of hands” and continues the passing of authority through proper ordination.
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I don’t believe my context is a little skewed, {if your refering to me} for I did say that many barriers seperated them, one could be the result in hardship in the society where they lived. Now I did say that its not a confession of sin, I did say that it was a confession that Jesus is Lord, in otherwords a confession of their faith in Jesus. As far as the administering the Sacraments without proper training or ordination, it could be also said that they did not administer them. Withoup proper training or ordination wouldn’t they be invalid? Just asking.
 
rev_kevin said:
I don’t see why you would need to tell someone other than God your sins, He is the only one who can forgive them. So If I ask God to forgive me my sins or pray that he forgives me of my sins, God won’t hear my asking or my prayers for forgiveness? He will turn a deaf ear because I didn’t go tell a priest first? So what you are saying is that I have to go to a priest tell him my sins then the priest goes and tells the Holy Spirit then the Holy Spirit goes to God and askes to forgive me? I have to go through 2 persons (sort of speaking) before God will forgive me my sins? I think its easer to just go to God myself and ask for forgiveness. Can you provide me where it says that God will only forgive you through the priesthood and by way of the Holy Spirit.
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They can’t. They always use Jn 20:23 to justify how a priest can forgive sins. Christ is the only one who can forgive sins.
 
dnu said:
Nice job of miconstruing what I wrote and drawing your own conclusions.

Why is it that when a Protestant is told what I just told you, EVERY SINGLE TIME they draw the exact same conclusion you did? I wish I had a dollar for every Protestant that has responded exactly as you just did. I know why, the Protestant can’t handle being called out on their biblical idolatry.

The Priest has full authority because it is the product of an unbroken chain of succession through the laying on of hands and the authority of the Holy Spirit. The sacrament of Holy Orders is not a time-limited finite volume like the New Testament is. Once again, you’ve drawn your own conclusion based upon a faulty understanding of what I wrote.

I never said “nobody in the 21st century is an ambassador of Christ.” Why are you lying and misrepresenting what I said? I simply said that the letters of the New Testament are letters written to a specific historically intended audience. The “we/us/you” of the New Testament is not you and me, it is the Catholics of the mid-first century.

There is a reason why the Christian religion has held for almost 2,000 years that the Bible is but a small fraction of Christian revelation. This is why. They bible is just a collect of inspired letters. This faulty cut and paste nonsense that the Protestants use “we’re saved by just confession Jesus’ name because Romans 10:8-9 says so” is precisely what is wrong with Protestantism, it ignores ALL historical and biblical context and ignores the big picture.

Christians may be the people of the book, but the book is the book of the people, and therefore cannot, under any honest logic, be set above the people.

Protestants make my head hurt. Jesus loves you and he wants you to come home to the one, single Church he founded. He did not found a book, he established a Church so that humanity can participate in the New Covenant with God. I can only pray that someday you will recognize the folly of the Protestant heresy and come home where Jesus always intended for every single one of us to be.
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I took the same way as the Rev. Explain yourself brother
 
rev_kevin said:
I don’t see why you would need to tell someone other than God your sins, He is the only one who can forgive them. .
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Well, maybe because it’s in this little book we call the bible:

James 5:16 “Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.”
 
ppasa316 said:
They can’t. They always use Jn 20:23 to justify how a priest can forgive sins. Christ is the only one who can forgive sins.
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Ya I know and I have given them the meaning of it but they still say that a priest has the power to forgive sin. Only God can forgive sin.
 
rev_kevin said:
Ya I know and I have given them the meaning of it but they still say that a priest has the power to forgive sin. Only God can forgive sin.
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Amen Brother, Keep up the good fight of faith. Are you the one that lives near Houston
 
rev_kevin said:
Ya I know and I have given them the meaning of it but they still say that a priest has the power to forgive sin. Only God can forgive sin.
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I guess the Mormons are right and all of Christendom lost their way shortly after Christs death. Not only is confession scriptural, it was taught and practiced by every Early Church Father and is still practiced today.

catholic.com/library/Confession.asp
 
Newbie2 said:
Well, maybe because it’s in this little book we call the bible:

James 5:16 “Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.”
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Hay quess what I get mine from a little book also and wouldn’t you know it, its called the bible just like your little book is called. Isn’t it a small world.

James 5:16 means that Christ has made it possible for us to go directly to God for forgiveness. But cofessing our sins to each other still had an important place in the life of the church.1) If we have sinned against an individual, we must ask him or her to forgive us.
2) If our sin has affected the church, we must confess it publicly. 3) If we need loving support as we struggle with a sin, we should confess that sin to those who are able to provide that support. 40 If we doubt God’s forgiveness, after confessing a sin to him, we may wish to confess that sin to a fellow believer for assurance of God’s pardon. In God’s kingdom every believer is a priest to other believers.
 
rev_kevin said:
Ya I know and I have given them the meaning of it but they still say that a priest has the power to forgive sin. Only God can forgive sin.
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Yeah, and we have stated our doctrine and you continue to misrepresent it. GOD forgives sins through the priest. The priest, by himself, has no power to do so, it’s him acting IN THE PERSON OF CHRIST.
 
rev_kevin said:
Hay quess what I get mine from a little book also and wouldn’t you know it, its called the bible just like your little book is called. Isn’t it a small world.

James 5:16 means that Christ has made it possible for us to go directly to God for forgiveness. But cofessing our sins to each other still had an important place in the life of the church.1) If we have sinned against an individual, we must ask him or her to forgive us.
2) If our sin has affected the church, we must confess it publicly. 3) If we need loving support as we struggle with a sin, we should confess that sin to those who are able to provide that support. 40 If we doubt God’s forgiveness, after confessing a sin to him, we may wish to confess that sin to a fellow believer for assurance of God’s pardon. In God’s kingdom every believer is a priest to other believers.
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I’m a little confused…what exactly did you mean when you wrote:

"I don’t see why you would need to tell someone other than God your sins, He is the only one who can forgive them. "

especially in light of James 5:16, which apparently is in your bible too. 😉
 
Newbie2 said:
Yeah, and we have stated our doctrine and you continue to misrepresent it. GOD forgives sins through the priest. The priest, by himself, has no power to do so, it’s him acting IN THE PERSON OF CHRIST.
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So inorder for God to forgive sin it has to go through a priest first before he will forgive anyone of their sins. :eek:
Now if you pray to God does that have to go through someone before God will hear it?
 
rev_kevin said:
So inorder for God to forgive sin it has to go through a priest first before he will forgive anyone of their sins. :eek:
Now if you pray to God does that have to go through someone before God will hear it?
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In an ordinary situation, for mortal sin, yes. There is also forgiveness possible through making what’s called a “perfect act of contrition”.

Second question: No. Where did you get that idea? Asking for forgiveness through the sacrament of Reconciliation and Prayer are two different things, for the most part, although if we’re talking about “prayer” in the sense of communication with God in asking for pardon of our sin, then the two are of course intimately related.
 
dnu said:
I guess the Mormons are right and all of Christendom lost their way shortly after Christs death. Not only is confession scriptural, it was taught and practiced by every Early Church Father and is still practiced today.

catholic.com/library/Confession.asp
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Instead of being critical of other denominations try to answer questions instead of dancing around them and bashing some of Christs followers. Like I said its not Christ like or is that also rubbish.
 
Oh, what’s a little friendly sarcasm in an otherwise stale world…😃

Now back to our originally scheduled topic. 🙂
 
Newbie2 said:
In an ordinary situation, for mortal sin, yes. There is also forgiveness possible through making what’s called a “perfect act of contrition”.

Second question: No. Where did you get that idea? Asking for forgiveness through the sacrament of Reconciliation and Prayer are two different things, for the most part, although if we’re talking about “prayer” in the sense of communication with God in asking for pardon of our sin, then the two are of course intimately related.
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Ok let me get this straight, you go and confess your “mortal sins” to a priest but for the everyday sins you say a prayer "Oh my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended thee…
But you did not answer my question. Why do you need a priest inorder for God to forgive your sins?
How do you know if God accepted you perfect act of contrition without a priest to go through?
 
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