Non-Catholic (protestant) authority

[Newbie2]

Ok let me get this straight, you go and confess your “mortal sins” to a priest but for the everyday sins you say a prayer "Oh my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended thee…

Well, it doesn’t need to be that formulaic (formuletic?) er…that formula-like or that formal.
But you did not answer my question. Why do you need a priest inorder for God to forgive your sins?

Perhaps let me answer it this way…if there were no priest available, God would indeed forgive our sin if we asked him. Catholics have the benefit of the sacrament of Reconciliation, which can be administered only by a priest.
How do you know if God accepted you perfect act of contrition without a priest to go through?
I guess the same way you have confidence that God forgives your sin as a non-Catholic. We have confidence, but it’s a bit presumptive to say that God has definitely forgiven us for this or that. Only he really knows if we are truly contrite.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Ok let me get this straight, you go and confess your “mortal sins” to a priest but for the everyday sins you say a prayer "Oh my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended thee…
But you did not answer my question. Why do you need a priest inorder for God to forgive your sins?
How do you know if God accepted you perfect act of contrition without a priest to go through?

Some things we don’t know.

What we do know is that Jesus told the apostles that whose sins they forgive are forgiven.

He also told them that he is sending them as he was sent by God, thus giving them his authority.

It makes sense that they would pass on this authority to their successors.

As Catholics we are confident in the words of Jesus and the authority of the successors of the apostles to forgive our sins.

 

[Newbie2]

Carry on. Gents, I’m off to beddie-bye. :yawn: I’ll catch up tomorrow…

 

[rev_kevin]

Newbie2:
So because there are priests God will only forgive sin through the Sacrament of Reconciliation, but if there were no priests then he would forgive them anyway. So why have the S of R to begin with if God will forgive them anyway? Its like going through a 3rd party when you don’t need to.

Ok how does a priest know if your really sorry for you sins if God is the only one who really knows?
How do you know if telling a priest your sins that they are truly forgiven?

 

[rev_kevin]

Some things we don’t know.

What we do know is that Jesus told the apostles that whose sins they forgive are forgiven.

He also told them that he is sending them as he was sent by God, thus giving them his authority.

It makes sense that they would pass on this authority to their successors.

As Catholics we are confident in the words of Jesus and the authority of the successors of the apostles to forgive our sins.

Ok now I’m confused I have been told that a priest forgives sins, then I have been told that they can’t only God can, now you say that the authority was pass down to their successors to forgive sin ie priests. Then I was told that you go to confession for mortal sin and say a perfect act of contrition for the lesser ones. Then I was told that a priest gives the Sacrament of Reconsiliation but if there were no priests then God would forgive our sins .

 

[Justin1982]

So because there are priests God will only forgive sin through the Sacrament of Reconciliation, but if there were no priests then he would forgive them anyway. So why have the S of R to begin with if God will forgive them anyway? Its like going through a 3rd party when you don’t need to.

Ok how does a priest know if your really sorry for you sins if God is the only one who really knows?
How do you know if telling a priest your sins that they are truly forgiven?

That’s for God to decide. An honest person will know if they have given an honest confession.

 

[Justin1982]

Now to get back to confession, notice in the scriptures how when people are forgiven their sins they have spoken aloud to the Son of Man(physical and spiritual), if you want the references I can give them but I think you can understand where I’m coming from there. They spoke directly to him and through an understanding of persona Christi (John 20:23) it is put into context of why we continue today. Through this we do not lose the physical element of confession, because God made us both physical and spiritual. Humility has an enormous role in confession as it also has an enormous role in the Catholic Church.

I restated this because it seems like it was ignored all the way back on page 4.

 

[rev_kevin]

That’s for God to decide. An honest person will know if they have given an honest confession.

I do believe we are in agreement :extrahappy:

 

[Justin1982]

I would like to re-post this because it seemingly went ignored back on page 4:

Now to get back to confession, notice in the scriptures how when people are forgiven their sins they have spoken aloud to the Son of Man(physical and spiritual), if you want the references I can give them but I think you can understand where I’m coming from there. They spoke directly to him and through an understanding of persona Christi (John 20:23) it is put into context of why we continue today. Through this we do not lose the physical element of confession, because God made us both physical and spiritual. Humility has an enormous role in confession as it also has an enormous role in the Catholic Church.

 

[Michael_Francis]

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/topic.gif
12 post have been pruned from this thread because they are off topic and in some cases overly personal.
Kindly return to the topic and remain there.

 

[mark_a]

I would like to re-post this because it seemingly went ignored back on page 4:

Now to get back to confession, notice in the scriptures how when people are forgiven their sins they have spoken aloud to the Son of Man(physical and spiritual), if you want the references I can give them but I think you can understand where I’m coming from there. They spoke directly to him and through an understanding of persona Christi (John 20:23) it is put into context of why we continue today. Through this we do not lose the physical element of confession, because God made us both physical and spiritual. Humility has an enormous role in confession as it also has an enormous role in the Catholic Church.

bump

 

[rev_kevin]

bump

 

[Justin1982]

I believe, he was restating my quote and looking for thoughts on the statement.

 

[guanophore]

Freudian slip, Flatty?

Maybe so, but a great one!

I can’t speak for all Protestant denominations, but a seriously Biblical Protestant would tell you that the Scriptures—opened up by the Holy Spirit to the believer—are sufficient, in the vein of:

All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16)

This is a common misunderstanding of the Scxripture. The passages states that it isi th eman of God that is to be made complete. The Scriptures are “profitable” toward this end, but were never intended to supply everything. If they were, there would be no need for authority in the Church. However, the Apostle teaches:

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;
Eph 4:15 but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ;

We can see here that the work of building up the body, and equipping the saints is given to those whom God has appointed for this duty. In their hands, scripture is profitable for all these things. When the scriptures are separated from those who are appointed by God to do the work, all sorts of distortions result.

Which also echoes many of the passages in Psalm 119:

I do not turn aside from Thy ordinances, for** Thou** hast taught me.

Through thy precepts I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way.

Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

I will never forget Thy precepts; for by them Thou hast given me life.

Thy testimonies are my delight, they are my counselors.

I have more understanding than all my teachers, for Thy testimonies are my meditation.

Meditation upon His Word is, of course, the rich inheritance of all of us. However, if one rejects those that God appointed to equip us, one is basically saying that Jesus was just talking to hear His own voice speaking when He commanded the Apostles to make disciples. He should have commanded them to write books!

 

[guanophore]

Mark 2:7 "Who but God can forgive sins."

If you are intellectually honest, you will have to admit that the enemies of Christ took this point of view, and the disciples and believers the opposite.

Acts 10:43 “…Everyone who believes in him will have their sins forgiven through his name.”

John 1:29 “Look! There is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.”

Indeed, it is the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world, and all who believe in Him will have forgiveness. Jesus was giving the Apostles the authority to determine whether the person seeking forgiveness was actually “believing in Him”. As we can see, The HS was working through Peter when Ananias and Sapphira pretended to be “in Him” but were lying to the HS. By the authority vested in him by Christ, Peter retained their sins.

John 20:23 "If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven. If you refuse to forgive them, they are unforgiven."

(The Disciples did not have the power to forgive sins, only God can forgive sins,

Why do you think the Scriptures say God gave this power to men (plural)?

but Jesus gave them the privilege of telling new believers that their sins have been forgiven because they have accepted Jesus’ message.

Although this is also true, it is different in context and quality than the retaining and forgiving instruction. Retention of sins is post-baptismal.

All believers have this same privilege. W can announce forgiveness of sins with certainty whe we ourselves have found repentance and faith.)

Yes, we can. And Catholics embrace the Apostolic teaching that baptism washes away all sins, original, and personal. However, it is post-baptismal sins that are referenced here, of the kind that Ananias and Sapphira committed.

 

[guanophore]

Hi. I must correct you on Mark 2:7 it was not the crowd that questioned Christ it was the teachers of religious law who questioned Christ. “But some teachers of religious law who were sitting there said to themselves, What? This is blaspheny! Who but God can forgive sins!” Now the religious leaders understood correctly that Jesus was claiming Divine Prerogatives, but their judgment of Jesus was wrong. They did not know Jesus is God.

I agree with you. However, Jesus shared His divine perogatives with His Apostles.

But the fact remains that they were right only God can forgive sin.

How do you dispense with the Scripture that indicates otherwise?

Acts 1:29 Jesus is ordained of God to be the judge of all--the living and the dead. It does not say the disciples were ordained.

Perhaps we have a different understanding of what it means to be ordained? We see Jesus ordaining them in the Last Supper. When He says “as the Father has sent Me, so I send you”. the father sent Jesus “in all authority” and so He sends the Apostles. In their turn, they sent their successors “in all authority”.

The disciples were to “Preach,” it does not say they can forgive sins.

Well, we read it differently, don’t we? When it says Jesus told them they could forgive and retain sins, we believe that is what He meant.

Of course he picked the disciples long ago to Learn and to preach his word after he assended to heaven. Now forgive sin. Once again only God can forgive sin.

When those ordained to do so forgive sins, they do so " in the face of Christ" or in the Person of Christ. They are acting in His name, and with His authority.

John 1:29 The apostles only had the authority to listen to their sins, the cannot forgive sins.

And what would be the point of that? Why confess their sins, then not hear they are forgiven by God? Further, why did Jesus tell us that we had to forgive, or we would not be forgiven? If only God can forgive sins, why the Lord’s Prayer?

The sin of the world means everyone’s sin, the sin of each individual. Jesus paid the price for our sin by his death. We receive forgiveness by confessing our sin to Him and ask for forgiveness. Again Only God can forgive sin.

It is a puzzle why you would prefer to take the side of Christ’s enemies.

Acts 1:20 Peter continued, This was “Predicetd” in the Book of Psalms, where it says, Let his home become decolate, with no one living in it. And again, let his position be given to someone eles" V>16 says Peter said that it was “Necessary” for the “Scriptures” to be “Fulfilled” concerning Judas. This was “Predicted” long ago by the Holy Spirit speaking through Kind David. Peter was fulfilling Scripture. Thats why the had to choose a replacement for Judas. The outlined specific criteria for making the choice. When the finalists had been chosen, the apostles prayed, asking God to guide their selection process.

Do you believe, as some claim that this passage shows Peter making a mistake? I have read here on CAF where many believe Paul was God’s choice for the 12th Apostle, and that Peter overstepped.

 

[guanophore]

I don't see why you would need to tell someone other than God your sins,

Jesus created us ,and He knows how damaging guilt and shame are to the human soul. He set up this method of healing so that we would not be bogged down my our fallen nature. That is why it says in James “confess your sins to one another, that you may be healed”.

He is the only one who can forgive them.

If you are siding with the enemies of God, yes.

So If I ask God to forgive me my sins or pray that he forgives me of my sins, God won’t hear my asking or my prayers for forgiveness? He will turn a deaf ear because I didn’t go tell a priest first?

Of course not.

So what you are saying is that I have to go to a priest tell him my sins then the priest goes and tells the Holy Spirit then the Holy Spirit goes to God and askes to forgive me?

No. The priest acts in the person of Christ. So, just as Jesus was able to say “your sins are forgiven you, rise, and sin no more” this is what the priest does.

I have to go through 2 persons (sort of speaking) before God will forgive me my sins?

I can see why it seems this way, since you do not grasp the sacramental nature of it.

I think its easer to just go to God myself and ask for forgiveness. Can you provide me where it says that God will only forgive you through the priesthood and by way of the Holy Spirit.

No, but then, the Church does not teach this.

 

[rev_kevin]

If you are intellectually honest, you will have to admit that the enemies of Christ took this point of view, and the disciples and believers the opposite.
Yes it was his enemies but they did not understand who Jesus was and Jesus confirmed that he was God when he said “I the Son of Man,( how is the Son of Man, God ) have the authority for forgive sins.” Who has the authority God.

Indeed, it is the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world, and all who believe in Him will have forgiveness. Jesus was giving the Apostles the authority to determine whether the person seeking forgiveness was actually “believing in Him”. As we can see, The HS was working through Peter when Ananias and Sapphira pretended to be “in Him” but were lying to the HS. By the authority vested in him by Christ, Peter retained their sins.
How would they know if the preson was actually sorry. They couldn’t read their minds or know what was in their hearts. Only God has that ability.

Why do you think the Scriptures say God gave this power to men (plural)?
I have stated that we all have the power to forgive someone who has sinned against you.

Although this is also true, it is different in context and quality than the retaining and forgiving instruction. Retention of sins is post-baptismal.

Yes, we can. And Catholics embrace the Apostolic teaching that baptism washes away all sins, original, and personal. However, it is post-baptismal sins that are referenced here, of the kind that Ananias and Sapphira committed.

 

[rev_kevin]

I agree with you. However, Jesus shared His divine perogatives with His Apostles.Wouldn’t that make them equal to God/Jesus? Wouldn’t that make them their own god’s?

How do you dispense with the Scripture that indicates otherwise?Show Scripture

Perhaps we have a different understanding of what it means to be ordained? We see Jesus ordaining them in the Last Supper. When He says “as the Father has sent Me, so I send you”. the father sent Jesus “in all authority” and so He sends the Apostles. In their turn, they sent their successors “in all authority”.

Well, we read it differently, don’t we? When it says Jesus told them they could forgive and retain sins, we believe that is what He meant. Yes we do. I don’t see where they were ordained at the Last Supper. I thought that happened when the HS was breated on them.

When those ordained to do so forgive sins, they do so " in the face of Christ" or in the Person of Christ. They are acting in His name, and with His authority.
Acting is one thing but if they had the same authority as Jesus then they would be his equal as I stated above.

And what would be the point of that? Why confess their sins, then not hear they are forgiven by God? Further, why did Jesus tell us that we had to forgive, or we would not be forgiven? If only God can forgive sins, why the Lord’s Prayer?Faith that God has forgiven your sins if you were infact sorry for them. How does a priest know if you are infact truly sorry? The Lords Prayer don’t say only priests, I have stated the we all can forgive someone who sinned against us. It don’t need a priest to do that. If someone comes to you and says “I’m sorry I stold from you” then you say “I forgive you” they are forgiven. Is there a priest there everytime you forgive someone for wronging you?

It is a puzzle why you would prefer to take the side of Christ’s enemies.
I explained it in post 86

Do you believe, as some claim that this passage shows Peter making a mistake? I have read here on CAF where many believe Paul was God’s choice for the 12th Apostle, and that Peter overstepped.

Wouldn’t Peter have the same authority as Paul does, so I don’t see any overstepping.

 

[rev_kevin]

Jesus created us ,and He knows how damaging guilt and shame are to the human soul. He set up this method of healing so that we would not be bogged down my our fallen nature. That is why it says in James “confess your sins to one another, that you may be healed”.
Explained in post 87

If you are siding with the enemies of God, yes.Explained in post 86

Of course not.Then if he will hear and forgive my sins, why is a priest needed?

No. The priest acts in the person of Christ. So, just as Jesus was able to say “your sins are forgiven you, rise, and sin no more” this is what the priest does.Why do you need a priest to say that?

I can see why it seems this way, since you do not grasp the sacramental nature of it

No, but then, the Church does not teach this.

But you said above “of course not” that God will forgive without a priest.