Non-Catholic religions and abortion

[st_lucy]

No, it depends on how you define what a person is.

Please, tell us what your definition of a human being is. If the embryo is not human what could it possible be?

An embryo has no personality, no ideas, hardly even thinks.
I literally know a lot of people with no personality. There are quite a bit of people who have no idea or ideas and so there for hardly even think. Or are you talking about someone who say is unconscious, or mentally retarded?
It literally does not know anything, or even feel much, if at all. I have to challenge you to give me proof of this research. How do you know if they don’t feel anything. And if they don’t why is it that some dr’s are required by law to ask the women to give their unborn painkillers?
Yes, it is alive.
Agree!
But, at an embryonic stage, it simply is.
Just as you are in an adult stage, or like a teenager is at their stage of life.
It has no purpose as of yet. It is just alive, and that is it. How do you know that it has no purpose? Maybe God has some huge plans for this child.
So just because they are alive does not mean that they are really a real person.
That sounds a lot like what those who killed Jewish people said or those who killed Tutsis. Kind of scary isn’t
That is just my reasoning…I know some will agree and others won’t.
Your reasoning scares me since you are defining what a human is according to what you feel they should be, that would leave a lot of us falling way short and pondering when our time will come.

I think that women should be given a choice if they want a child or not.
Well the key here is what you think, but I should hope that child that you are so willing to do away with would also like to have a chance to debt his existence. If you want to keep the baby, great! If you don’t, that is fine too! As I said, my opinion.

 

[notself]

No, it depends on how you define what a person is.

An embryo has no personality, no ideas, hardly even thinks. It literally does not know anything, or even feel much, if at all. Yes, it is alive. But, at an embryotic stage, it simply is. It has no purpose as of yet. It is just alive, and that is it. So just because they are alive does not mean that they are really a real person. That is just my reasoning…I know some will agree and others won’t.

I think that women should be given a choice if they want a child or not. If you want to keep the baby, great! If you don’t, that is fine too! As I said, my opinion.

Women do have a choice on whether they want a baby or not.

If they choose to have unprotected sex they are choosing the possibility of a baby. If they don’t want that possibility then they should be celibate until circumstances change.

They can use two or more of these methods of birth control to greatly reducing the chance of pregnancy. Natural Family Planning taught by the Church combined with condoms would greatly reduce the chance of pregnancy and reduce the risk of sexually transmitted disease. If pregnancy were to occur, the baby can be put up for adoption.

fda.gov/Fdac/features/1997/conceptbl.html

Now most of you would object to the use of a condom in combination with Natural Family Planning. But really, which is the greater sin, the use of a contraception device or killing.

 

[jmcrae]

Women do have a choice on whether they want a baby or not.

If they choose to have unprotected sex they are choosing the possibility of a baby. If they don’t want that possibility then they should be celibate until circumstances change.

And in the case where the woman did the not-very-bright thing, she can also give the child up for adoption.

But really, which is the greater sin, the use of a contraception device or killing.

Both of these sins will get you into Hell, so it’s not a matter of which one is worse to do, other than from a purely “angels dancing on the head of a pin” style of academic viewpoint.

 

[kellie]

A fertilized egg IS an embryo. To say otherwise is to try to distort facts in order to dehumanize.

a fertilized egg is not an embryo, refer to my earlier post in this thread about my miscarriage

 

[notself]

And in the case where the woman did the not-very-bright thing, she can also give the child up for adoption.

Both of these sins will get you into Hell, so it’s not a matter of which one is worse to do, other than from a purely “angels dancing on the head of a pin” style of academic viewpoint.

Ah, so it is just the same to you if your child had unprotected sex or if she murdered her boyfriend. What an interesting religion you practice.

 

[mark_a]

If my wife gets raped and she wants to abort the result, i would be more than happy to agree with her. I would rather that we bear & raise the product of our own love.

How 'bout if one of your swimmers slips through, impregnates her, and she decides to abort?

Ain’t nothin’ you can do. . . . .

 

[estesbob]

IMO, a baby is only a baby if it is a person (one that has a personality, or a self-aware sentient mind). I dont think a very young embryo is already a person.

And in that case why should a rape victim & her spouse endure the pains & punishment of bearing & raising the child of her violator? Me, I love having a second child. But I can hardly afford it. If my wife gets raped and she wants to abort the result, i would be more than happy to agree with her. I would rather that we bear & raise the product of our own love.

Aint it great to be man?. Your wife faces a gut wrenching , soul searchng decision and you walk away while saying “whatever you want to do honey”. Thats why so many men LOVE abortion-it allows them to duck ALL responsibility for an unexpected child-whetner it by rape or not.

Your wife should be proud to have such a “sensitive” man as her husband although one would have to wonder how your children would feel knowing you though it was ok to kill them when they didnt meet your definition of life.

 

[Jennifer123]

a fertilized egg is not an embryo, refer to my earlier post in this thread about my miscarriage

I’m sorry to say again, that yes, a fertilized egg is an embryo. “Fertilized egg” is a misnomer - the egg ceases to exist at point of conception, when egg and spem combine to create a unique human individual.

 

[Jennifer123]

But really, which is the greater sin, the use of a contraception device or killing.

I hesitate to answer this point but feel I must so that we try to avoid moral relativism.
Contraception is part of the problem of abortion, it is not a solution to it. The use of contraception leads to more incidence of abortion, not less. Even PP knows that the majority of women who come in to have an abortion were using contraception when getting pregnant. Those who use contraception are more likely to use abortion when their methods fail since they are most likely to also view pregnancy out of context with life-giving love.

 

[notself]

I hesitate to answer this point but feel I must so that we try to avoid moral relativism.
Contraception is part of the problem of abortion, it is not a solution to it. The use of contraception leads to more incidence of abortion, not less. Even PP knows that the majority of women who come in to have an abortion were using contraception when getting pregnant. Those who use contraception are more likely to use abortion when their methods fail since they are most likely to also view pregnancy out of context with life-giving love.

Sources please.

 

[church_mouse]

Sources please.

Not addressed to me but…Here is a free CD that might help you understand the connection of ABC and abortion if you (or anyone else) are interested.
omsoul.com/catalog/index.php?target=products&product_id=531

 

[notself]

Not addressed to me but…Here is a free CD that might help you understand the connection of ABC and abortion if you (or anyone else) are interested.
omsoul.com/catalog/index.php?target=products&product_id=531

Thank you but I was looking for some on line sources. For example here are the statistics for various types of contraception and birth control. You will notice that there are two columns. The first is typical use. The second is lowest rate expected (used regularly and as directed).

fda.gov/Fdac/features/1997/conceptbl.html

The first thing I noticed is that there is a large difference between typical use and lowest rate use. I guess you can’t stop people from taking risk.

The second thing I notice is that Natural Family Planning when used properly has a very effective rate. My niece teaches Natural Family Planning and it does work very well. The failure rate of “typical use” could be reduced if NFP was used in conjunction with condoms. (I am not saying that Catholics should use condoms).

It would be a very effective method if it were taught in High Schools because it has a built in “excuse” for girls to turn down sex. I think girls are under tremendous pressure to have sex in order to fit in. People may whine and moan about the media and the pressure kids are under to have sex, but whining and moaning never solved a problem.

If Catholics and others want to reduce the rate of abortion, then Catholics should be going to High Schools and teaching NFP. School Health Teachers could also teach condom use. Teen pregnancy would drop. Since teens grow up, in time the overall rate of unplanned pregnancies would drop.

Now combine training in birth control with rigorous enforcement of Statutory Rape Laws and Child Support Laws and there will be an even more dramatic lowering of teen pregnancy. I live in Arkansas, a very devoutly Christian State. We have the highest teen pregnancy rate among Caucasian girls in the nation. The majority of those pregnancies are caused by men at least 6 years older that the girls. That means that a girl of 14 is impregnated by a man of 20. This is rape no matter how cooperative the girl is. Yet enforcement of Statutory rape laws is very lax.

More effort should be made to enforce child support laws. Frequently teens and other unmarried women refuse to put the name of the father on the birth certificate. Social workers should have the authority to go to court to compel the mother to disclose the name of the father. In cases where there is multiple candidates, DNA test should be required. In states where child support laws are strictly enforce, illegitimate birth rates drop.

I don’t believe abortion will ever be completely eliminated. People will always kill. But we can do a lot more to reduce the abortion rate by reducing the pregnancy rate.

 

[jediliz]

Natural Family Planning is meant for Married Couples, not for hormonal teenagers with no self control.

And people do use condoms, too much, and the abortion rate is still too high. (PP gives out condoms that were given the poorest rating by Consumer Reports!)

If non catholic christians and those of others faiths taught that the sexuality was a gift from God, and emphasized chastity and modesty a lot more in their sermons and also read up on the development of a child BEFORE birth, maybe they’d go back to being in agreement with the Catholic Faith (at this point, I am talking about reversing what happened in 1930 with our separated brethen deciding that all contraception use was OKAY) we could start to be in agreement that abortion is wrong in ALL cases.

 

[notself]

Natural Family Planning is meant for Married Couples, not for hormonal teenagers with no self control.

And people do use condoms, too much, and the abortion rate is still too high. (PP gives out condoms that were given the poorest rating by Consumer Reports!)

If non catholic christians and those of others faiths taught that the sexuality was a gift from God, and emphasized chastity and modesty a lot more in their sermons and also read up on the development of a child BEFORE birth, maybe they’d go back to being in agreement with the Catholic Faith (at this point, I am talking about reversing what happened in 1930 with our separated brethen deciding that all contraception use was OKAY) we could start to be in agreement that abortion is wrong in ALL cases.

Well, I would like to see embryology taught in school beginning in Grade 9 along with economics and courses in critical thinking, ethics, and problem solving. In other words I would like to teach kids to thing instead of react.

Finally, girls have to be encouraged and trained to resist pressure to have sex just to please some boy and boys need to be encouraged and trained to understand that manhood is more that an erection and release. In order for this to work, parents need to stop buying whore dolls for their daughters like Barbie and Bratz and teach their sons to respect women.

 

[church_mouse]

QUOTE=notself;2818486]Thank you but I was looking for some on line sources.

Here is a link for the full transcript of “Contraception Why Not” and an excerpt regarding ABC:

omsoul.com/pamview.php?idnum=135#UnwPreg

Increase of unwanted pregnancies

So has it made for fewer unwanted pregnancies? The statistics on this are wild. In 1960, some 6% of white babies were born out of wedlock-6%! In 1992, 22% of white babies were born out of wedlock, almost a four-fold increase, and it’s rapidly rising. In 1960, some 22%, the same figure, 22% of black babies were born out of wedlock. Does anybody know the statistic now? 68%-68% of black babies are born out of wedlock. That took thirty years. I don’t think it will take thirty years for the 22% of whites to go up to 68%, if we follow down the same path we are currently following. Now, here’s my connection: First of all, the world tells us that if we have more and better contraceptives we can solve these problems. There will be fewer unwanted pregnancies. But the point was, in 1960 there were almost no contraceptives available, especially to teenagers. You had to know some tacky gas station somewhere and have a few quarters and that’s about the best you could do. But any teenager now can get a contraceptive from their guidance counselor, in fact, from some welcome-to-school kits in some schools. I mean we live in a culture in which condoms can be handed out in schools and Bibles can’t. And I think that tells you everything you need to know about our society. So it seems to me, clearly, more and better contraceptives aren’t going to help. Teenagers have incredible access to them. But teenagers are just as good at using contraceptives as they are at making their beds and doing their homework and doing their chores, at about the same degree of reliability.

I set up a pregnancy help center actually in South Bend and would talk with these young girls, and we’d ask them, “Did you use a contraceptive,” and they would say, “No, no. I wanted to buy a Prince album this month and I had to use my money for that,” or, “I didn’t like the side effects so I stopped,” or, “We broke up and I thought we weren’t going to see each other again but he came around again.” And they get pregnant, and they’re surprised. And, of course, we have a million and a half abortions a year. And how did these happen? 50% of women who go to abortion clinics tell us that they’re there because of contraceptive failure-50%! 80% tell us that they are contraceptively experienced, they know all about it and they’ve used it before but, for one reason or another, they’ve stopped.

Increased Abortions

But the real point, in my mind, is that contraceptives have launched people on a lifestyle that makes for sex outside of marriage-makes for sex in which babies and bonding are not welcome likelihoods. And when that happens, disaster strikes. People now say…when they’re having sex outside of marriage and they get pregnant, what do people say? They use this wonderful phrase: “I got pregnant by accident.” And I always am kind of mystified by this phrase, and I would say, “How did that happen again?” See, I’m kind of naive, you know, but I caught on to this some time ago, and I know you can’t get pregnant by accident. You can get hit by a car by accident and fall off a cliff by accident, but you can’t get pregnant by accident. It actually means that something has gone right with an act of sexual intercourse, not that something has gone wrong. But because people are using contraceptives, they get pregnant and they’re surprised. “My gosh! We got pregnant! We didn’t have that in mind. That wasn’t a part of this picture. So we have to do something about it. What’ll we have to do? We have to trot down to the abortion clinic.”

I’ll give you the highest authority of our land; the Supreme Court says so. There’s an article out there, I wrote, that’s on the table you can have for free. It’s called, “The Connection between Contraception and Abortion,” and I cite Planned Parenthood v. Casey. And in that decision it says: “In several important respects, the decision to have an abortion is the same as the decision to contracept.” And it goes on to explain. “For two decades, couples have based their intimate relationships on the availability of abortion should contraceptives fail.” Now in this whole Supreme Court decision, which is on abortion, there is not one mention of the humanity of the unborn child, not one mention of whether the fetus is a person or not. It’s not even dismissed as a question. It’s not even considered. But it does say we must have abortion because we have contraceptives. It’s a necessity. For two decades, couples have counted on it should their contraceptives fail. The Supreme Court says so.

 

[jediliz]

Well, I would like to see embryology taught in school beginning in Grade 9 along with economics and courses in critical thinking, ethics, and problem solving. In other words I would like to teach kids to thing instead of react.

Finally, girls have to be encouraged and trained to resist pressure to have sex just to please some boy and boys need to be encouraged and trained to understand that manhood is more that an erection and release. In order for this to work, parents need to stop buying whore dolls for their daughters like Barbie and Bratz and teach their sons to respect women.

Unfortunately, those things would probably be considered “Religious” and therefore, not allowed in public schools. Boys need to be taught to respect women - starting when they are little. It doesn’t help if Dad gets Playboy delivered secretly or that tons of movies that are advertised with teenagers in mind promote premarital sex as “fun and recreational” and not as its meant for (for INSIDE marriage and for pro-creative & unity).

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I think the question of whether the child has a brain or not is a mute points since the child is already alive with fully unique human DNA from the point of conception regardless of whether they have a fully functioning brain or not. And even if they were mentally handicapped and without a fully functioning brain they would still be concidered fully human.

Nonethless, since the topic was brought up, I will note there’s some interesting articles circulating about “memories before birth” and pre-natal thoughts.

For example, there’s the Time article called, “Memories Before Birth?” found here.

Another one, from “Life Before Birth” can be found here.

For example…
David B. Chamberlain:

Babies are leaning their native language before birth. This is made possible by the development of hearing as early as 16 weeks gestational age. A mother’s voice reaches the uterus with very little distortion as the sound waves pass directly through her body. Acoustic spectroscopy, which makes possible elaborately detailed portraits of sound similar to fingerprints, has documented prenatal learning of the mother tongue. By 27 weeks of gestation, the cry of a baby already contains some of the speech features, rhythms, and voice characteristics of its mother. Newborn reactions to language are based on the sounds heard in utero: French babies prefer to look at persons speaking French while Russian babies prefer to watch people speaking Russian.

Another article, “Life-Long Imprints from Pre-Birth Memories” regarding this topic can be found here.

Another article from “Life Before Birth” can be found here.

I am curious to know if a child from the womb of one woman has ever been transplanted into the womb of another woman?

For example, if a gentile were conceived from gentile parents and transplanted into the womb of a Jewish woman, would the child born to the Jewish woman be considered Jewish or a gentile?

---

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Continued…

Consequently, there seems to be anecdotal evidence that memories and experiences can be transplanted into another person via organ transplant. The phenomenon, called cellular memory, hypothesizes that such things as memories, habits, interests, and tastes may somehow be stored in all the cells of human bodies, i.e. not only in the brain. The hypothesis arose following a number of organ transplants in which the recipient was reported to have developed the memories and interests of the donor.

In this sense, the idea of cellular memory seems to suggest that the human brain is not the only portion of the neurological human pathway which can retain artifacts normally associated with the brain’s “traditional functions”. Kind of like a tape recorder retaining information along its CrO2 sides until played from a tape player, if true, it would indicate that memories and experiences can certainly be recorded in a “dormant” state and later and then retrieved when the person simply becomes more “aware”.

In other words, even if a child in the womb didn’t have a “brain”, they could still potentially be “experiencing” things in a dormant state via the existing neuroligcal pathways that do exist. Then, when the brain does form, these latent memories could possibly be “triggered” within the child when their brains develops more perfectly.

More information can be found here.

One thing that really caught my attention was this part here…

Another amazing story, reported by Pearsall, is that of an eight-year-old girl who received the heart of a ten-year-old girl who had been murdered. After the transplant, the recipient had horrifying nightmares of a man murdering her donor. The dreams were so traumatic that psychiatric help was sought. The girl’s images were so specific that the psychiatrist and the mother notified the police. According to the psychiatrist, ". . .using the description from the little girl, they found the murderer. He was easily convicted with the evidence the patient provided. The time, weapon, place, clothes he wore, what the little girl he killed had said to him . . . everything the little heart transplant recipient had reported was completely accurate.

I’ll note that, if true, this doesn’t imply that the “soul” is transplanted. Rather, the memories and experiences could possibly be held in a potential state recorded within the neurological pathways of the organ even though the soul has passed on to its eternal state.

Consequently, I find an interesting analogy to the cellular memory phenomenon apparently experienced with organ donors and the Eucharist within our traditional Catholic thinking. Indeed, if the heart of a ten-year-old girl who had been murdered can transfer memories to her eight-year-old donor recipient to the point that she can recall the time, weapon, place, clothes he wore, and even what the little girl he killed had said to him, then what are we to think when the Lord Jesus, who is True God and true man, gives us his Sacred Heart in the Eucharist?

I think this deserves further investigation.

 

[swariffin]

because it has no functional brain.

it came from egg components and external nutrients.

like your foot, eh?

In this case, I think you answered that a brain cell comes from egg components (a fertilized egg, to be more exact) and external nutrient, then it develop into a brain cell. If I continue then it develop into an embryo, then here we go, it develop into us. If you question that human embryo has no functional cell, then the answer should be clear that Yes, if you give some time. It is just a matter of time. You can not talk to a human embryo, just because he/she is not ready to answer yet.

BTW, my foot, my hand, and my mind comes from human being, which is myself. Foot = hand = mind = things. The difference is the type of the things. So, the definition of a person, to be simple is “Self”. It is human, who likes to make things complicated, and somehow forget to think simple.

 

[notself]

Unfortunately, those things would probably be considered “Religious” and therefore, not allowed in public schools. Boys need to be taught to respect women - starting when they are little. It doesn’t help if Dad gets Playboy delivered secretly or that tons of movies that are advertised with teenagers in mind promote premarital sex as “fun and recreational” and not as its meant for (for INSIDE marriage and for pro-creative & unity).

I doubt that teaching embryology would be considered religious, but some religious people may object to it on the grounds it is sex education.

It is more than Dad who doesn’t show respect for women. Mom is the one who tolerates the behavior of her husband and son. Mom is the one who buys the whore dolls for her daughter. Both teach their children that sex is recreation for the male and a tool for the female.

What are your suggestions when one of the more popular shows on television is “The Bachelor”?

How does self respect become part of society? If people can’t respect themselves, they can’t respect others.