Non-catholic Salvation

[PatThePoet]

The age old question. Are non-Catholics saved?

Implied that the non-Catholic in question is water baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That they repent of their sins faithfully when they commit them. And that their faith in Jesus Christ is unconditional.

This includes the Orthodox (who are pretty much Catholic but don’t recognize the Pope) and all Trinitarian Protestants.

This does NOT include “Christians” that deny the Holy Trinity (non-Trinatrians are non-Christian) or non-Christian religions.

It seems that the Pope has been more focused on making friends with Muslim clerics (who deny Christ died on a cross) than with other Christians. Or praying with Buddhist monks rather than uniting the global Christian churches. So this topic has gone un-answered save for the “burn the heretic” idea of the Middle Ages and the touchy-feeley attitude of the 1970’s.

ANSWERS PLEASE!

 

[justinthemartyr]

The age old question. Are non-Catholics saved?

Implied that the non-Catholic in question is water baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That they repent of their sins faithfully when they commit them. And that their faith in Jesus Christ is unconditional.

This includes the Orthodox (who are pretty much Catholic but don’t recognize the Pope) and all Trinitarian Protestants.

This does NOT include “Christians” that deny the Holy Trinity (non-Trinatrians are non-Christian) or non-Christian religions.

It seems that the Pope has been more focused on making friends with Muslim clerics (who deny Christ died on a cross) than with other Christians. Or praying with Buddhist monks rather than uniting the global Christian churches. So this topic has gone un-answered save for the “burn the heretic” idea of the Middle Ages and the touchy-feeley attitude of the 1970’s.

ANSWERS PLEASE!

more focused on making friends with muslim clerics and praying with buddhist monks?

what planet are you living on. Have you ever seen the daily schedule or the history of what the pope has done since he has been pope?

insanity may have overcome you, or you only watch secular media.

 

[roguejim]

The Council of Florence (A.D. 1438-1445) From Cantate Domino — Papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV

“…It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

“The Church is One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, and Roman: unique, the Chair founded on Peter. Outside her fold is to be found neither the true fold nor eternal salvation, for it is impossible to have God for a Father if one does not have the Church for a Mother.”
VEN POPE PIUS IX

“There is only one universal church of the faithful, outside which there is absolutely no salvation.”
IV Lateran Council

“It is a sin to believe there is salvation outside the Catholic Church!”
VEN POPE PIUS IX

“There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes.”
ST LOUIS MARIE DE MONTFORT

“It must be held as a matter of faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only
Ark of Salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood.”
VEN POPE PIUS IX

“There is no entering into salvation outside of the Church, just as in the time of the Deluge there was none outside the Ark which denotes the Church.”
POPE JOHN PAUL II

“I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved.”
POPE SYLVESTER II

“It is impossible to be joined to God except through Jesus Christ; it is impossilbe to be united to Christ except in and through the Church; finally, it is impossible to belong to the Church except through the bishops who are united to the Supreme Pastor, the successor of Peter.”
POPE JOHN XXIII

“The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, of which He is Head and Savior. The “People of God” and the “Mystical Body of Christ” are one and the same thing, both of them designating the Church. Membership in the Church requires conditions other than Baptism alone; it requires identical faith and unity of communion, so that by means of the Catholic Church alone, which is the unrestricted instrument of salvation, is it possible to obtain the fulness of the means to salvation. Indeed, the Church is both a sure and an exclusive means of attaining salvation. We must always remember the unity of the Mystical Body outside which there is no salvation, for there is no entering into salvation outside the Church. Outside this Body, the Holy Spirit gives life to no one: those who are enemies to unity do not participate in the charity of Divine Life; those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Spirit. The entrance to salvation is open to no one outside the Church!”
POPE PAUL VI

First point: Authority.

Internet posters have no authority, which is why I like to quote popes, saints, and councils. Therein, lies Catholic authority. If it’s just opinions you are looking for, there will be many. But, are they authoritative and true?

Second point: Context.

There will be many people here posing as Catholics, who will try and ecumenize these quotes to make them less offensive to you. They will say that I have pulled these quotes out of context. Eternal truth, such as is represented by these quotes, like mathematical truth, has no context. What is the context of 2+2=4? Of course, there is no context. It is true on its very face.

 

[Crepusculum]

Just to elaborate on your list there and in full agreement that personal opinions mean squat, here is the Catechism’s references to salvation outside the Church:

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

269 UR 3 # 1.
270 Cf. CIC, can. 751.
271 Origen, Hom. in Ezech. 9, 1: PG 13, 732.
272 UR 3 # 1.
273 LG 8 # 2.
274 UR 3 # 2; cf. LG 15.
275 Cf. UR 3.
276 Cf. LG 8.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation337

335 Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21: PL 3, 1169; De unit.: PL 4, 509-536.
336 LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.
337 LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.

CCC 846 also points to CCC 161 and CCC 1257:

The necessity of faith

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please (God) " and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”]

1. Cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:36; 6:40 et al.

VI. The Necessity of Baptism

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

59 Cf. Jn 3:5.
60 Cf. Mt 28:19-20; cf. Council of Trent (1547) DS 1618; LG 14; AG 5.

I am curious though, why you think “2 + 2 = 4” requires no context? After all the answer is only acheivable in the context of what the symbols mean

 

[Yerusalyim]

:clapping:

Thanks Crep, those like Rogue who seem to want to forget that all those old quotes from Popes and Synods need to be understood in proper context, and that context is contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Not all “Cafetria Catholics” are liberals, some are traditionalists. Further, quotes from Saints like Montfort have no bearing on the proper interpretation of Catholic Teaching…a Saint is not Infallible.

PATTHEPOET, the quotes from the CCC give the proper understanding of Catholic Teaching.

 

[Sam_777]

Or praying with Buddhist monks rather than uniting the global Christian churches.

Do you have link for that !

 

[Jesuspaiditall]

"That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the scripture says, ‘Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.’ "

Romans 10:9-11

The Roman Catholic Church is not mentioned in the Bible; it is not necessary for salvation.

 

[Lampo]

The Roman Catholic Church is not mentioned in the Bible;…

It is correct that the individual rites of the Catholic Church are not mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Pinkyyy]

First point: Authority.

Internet posters have no authority, which is why I like to quote popes, saints, and councils. Therein, lies Catholic authority. If it’s just opinions you are looking for, there will be many. But, are they authoritative and true?

Second point: Context.

There will be many people here posing as Catholics, who will try and ecumenize these quotes to make them less offensive to you. They will say that I have pulled these quotes out of context. Eternal truth, such as is represented by these quotes, like mathematical truth, has no context. What is the context of 2+2=4? Of course, there is no context. It is true on its very face.

Okay, Protestants generally don’t accept the authority of your Popes and Councils because they are what YOU say, not Jesus (and we can keep going round and round on the issue that Jesus built it on Peter) but the fact remains that Catholics have interpreted the Bible to fit their beliefs - they too have twisted passages IMO (as every church has).

Just because you belive it to be authoritative and true does not mean it is. If the head of the astrological Association of whatever believed the moon was made of cheese is it true? I mean sometimes I think about how it seems Catholics blindly follow what it told to them “because” , and not because there is a good reason. Maybe if the Pope said the moon was made of cheese, some Catholics would believe it too

Also, Protestants came out of Catholics so if you were founded out of Jesus and we were founded out of you - well then if A = B and B=C, then A=C.

Also half your quotes were from one Pope who I actually had some respect for until I read those quotes . As you see when you attack other religions as it feels you are, you get the opposite reaction - you are not turning anyone towards Catholicism with such an attitude.

Remember not to judge - you are not the judge for protestants or other Catholics on this board - who are you to say some here are posing as Catholics because they don’t agree with you? - those are not the only Popes and authorative figures in the history of the Catholic Church and not everyone has said such cold and unforgiving things like they believe Protestants will go to Hell if they are not in the RCC. It’s like they are saying they are the actual authority of Jesus because it’s what the CC says and it was founded on Jesus (what a circular argument - if Catholics say it, then it is authorative because Jesus founded the church and if you don’t agree with us see that Jesus said he built the RCC - no one can win an argument with that logic).

What if Jesus one day says to you that the Catholic church was wrong on this or that issue - are you going to argue with Him and tell him well I believe what the CC says Jesus and you should too because it was founded on you?!?!

And here is a shocker - only Jesus is the authority on himself. It’s almost like you are telling Jesus what he will have to do (send all non-catholics to Hell) because the CC says so - do you suggest to tell Jesus what to do and believe?

Even the Pope who you hold to the highest regard believes we are brethren. We sure are more likely than non-christian religions to get into Heaven.

If you think God has a checklist according the the beliefs of the Catholic church and that you must “pass” this test - then you are WRONG and in effect speaking for Jesus about who will get into Heaven or not. Who are YOU to speak for Jesus?!?!?!?!

 

[Lampo]

Okay, Protestants generally don’t accept the authority of your Popes and Councils…snip

If they accept the Bible, then they accept the authority of the Pope and Councils.

 

[Jesuspaiditall]

If they accept the Bible, then they accept the authority of the Pope and Councils.

If you accept the authority of the Pope and Councils, then you do not accept the Bible as the truth. The Pope says you must be saved through the catholic church . The verse I have as my signature denies that.

 

[Lampo]

If you accept the authority of the Pope and Councils, then you do not accept the Bible as the truth. The Pope says you must be saved through the catholic church . The verse I have as my signature denies that.

No, actually it does not. Let me ask you, do you believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God? If yes, why?

 

[Pinkyyy]

If they accept the Bible, then they accept the authority of the Pope and Councils.

I am a protestant who accepts the Bible but not everything the Pope does or says and not the councils. Again, you are telling me what I have to believe by your standards. Not everything is to one groups standards.

 

[Lampo]

I am a protestant who accepts the Bible but not everything the Pope does or says and not the councils. Again, you are telling me what I have to believe by your standards. Not everything is to one groups standards.

I see. Do you accept the authority of the Pope and Councils that determined the Canon of Scripture?

 

[Jesuspaiditall]

God decided what is in the Bible.

 

[Crepusculum]

God decided what is in the Bible.

So the Holy Spirit was working through the people of the Church who decided which (of the 100 or so) books were inspired and which were not? Why do you then suspect that the holy spirit left them? And how do you reconcile that with your belief in the bible in 1Tim 3:15?

 

[Lampo]

God decided what is in the Bible.

Indeed. Through Catholic Councils. I’ll ask you again, do you believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God? If yes, why?

 

[SyCarl]

Indeed. Through Catholic Councils. I’ll ask you again, do you believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God? If yes, why?

Do you believe the Catholic Church has the inerrant word of God? If yes, why?

 

[Lampo]

Do you believe the Catholic Church has the inerrant word of God? If yes, why?

Yes. Because the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ with Christ as the head. Another reason is that God said the Church is the pillar and bullwark of truth. If the Church says it has the inerrant word of God, then I believe the Church. I accept the authority the Church, do you? Do you believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God? If yes, why?

 

[heisenburg]

I agree that God decided what was in the bible (albeit through His church)…

A second question arises from this logic…

How do you know that the books IN the bible are the ones that are suppose to be in there… No where in any scripture does it say what books should be in there… and there was no agreement on books till the end of the 4th century (~382AD). Why is the list produced then the accurate one and not an earlier one…

In Other words… If you accept the NT as it stands, Why do you accept the list of cannon we have today that was given to us by the three councils (Rome, Carthage and Hippo)…

This list did not exist before then…

In Christ