Non Catholic Spouse and Birth Control

[TruthSeeker92]

Dear Alix,

Wow. I’m so sorry you are going through this! I noticed that many people have answered your question about the morality of sterilization and whether or not your husband would be in a state of sin. I wanted to share with you another resource for NFP. I know that you are frustrated and I understand that NFP is difficult sometimes and time consuming.
Have you heard of the Kindara APP? It’s an APP for your smartphone which keeps all your fertility data at your fingertips. There is a whole online community of women to consult with questions and concerns (I believe) 24/7 as well as the experts behind the APP. If you do choose to continue using NFP (I hope you do) maybe this would be helpful!

Kindara FREE Fertility Awareness APP & the Wink Thermometer - kindara.com/home

I will pray for you. God bless you!

 

[pensmama87]

Yes, I do. No priest would advocate that a woman purposely endanger her health, nor the unity of her family, despite your opinions to the contrary.

The problem with this line of argument is that contraception is not foolproof, but we tend to talk about it like it is. So many women have “Pill babies” (even if they don’t miss a dose!) Barrier methods break even if a couple knows how to use them. Spermicide doesn’t kill every sperm cell, and on and on and on. Even sterilization techniques sometimes fail.

If pregnancy is truly life endangering, abstinence is the only safe method. Does that stink? You bet it does. But if you really need a guarantee, you need a guarantee.

 

[Alix1912]

I wanted to clarify a few things:

1. Pregnancy for me is not life threatening…but it is very difficult, and the PPA and PPD I deal with afterwards is really pretty awful.
2. I am done having kids. period.
3. I do not find barrier methods of ABC to be a sin, and while NFP was great when planning for our 1st, it’s failure led to #2 arriving sooner than we had originally planned.
4. I am not doing any form of NFP going forward. I do not believe it is the only option, and since the bulk of the work to do it right falls to me, it’s not going to happen. I’m not taking my temp every morning, peeing in a cup, downloading apps, or paying a fortune for a monitor. The answer is simply NO. I have bent over backwards for his reconversion…I’m done.
5. The resolution to the situation is this. I meet with my OBGYN this week to discuss all my options. Personally, I’m kind of hoping for the same wacky papsmear that many women in my family seem to get that calls for the entire system to be yanked for health reasons. Then the argument is just over. However, is that is not the case…then my husband will get to chose: I get a permanent fix so I do not ever have to worry and he can not hold it against me or act like a spoilt child, or no sex ever AT ALL, until he is 60+ years old. That’s really how it falls. Since pregnancy is NOT an option.

I still think that using the pill to treat acne being OK, and using it to prevent PPD is not OK is about the dumbest argument ever.

 

[underacloud]

I wanted to clarify a few things:

1. Pregnancy for me is not life threatening…but it is very difficult, and the PPA and PPD I deal with afterwards is really pretty awful.
2. I am done having kids. period.

No dramas there. The Church recognises that a couple may have reasonable reasons to decide that they will avoid having further children.

My wife and I feel much the same way, actually.

…then my husband will get to chose: I get a permanent fix so I do not ever have to worry and he can not hold it against me or act like a spoilt child, or no sex ever AT ALL, until he is 60+ years old. That’s really how it falls. Since pregnancy is NOT an option.

Why must he choose?

Why not, as I have pointed out, do you not show him what I have shown you - that a Catholic spouse may (in these sorts of cases) have sex with a contracepting spouse? Your husband currently has a false understanding of Catholic teaching in this regard. A simple correction on this point is in order.

And then why do you not make the choice that you say you are comfortable with? Why push this onto him, when you know that he cannot agree with your choice? But if you make the choice, you and he can then resume normal marital relations.

It seems like you want to back him into a corner, when I just don’t see that it’s necessary.

 

[Rau]

I wanted to clarify a few things:

1. Pregnancy for me is not life threatening…but it is very difficult, and the PPA and PPD I deal with afterwards is really pretty awful.
2. I am done having kids. period.
3. I do not find barrier methods of ABC to be a sin, and while NFP was great when planning for our 1st, it’s failure led to #2 arriving sooner than we had originally planned.
4. I am not doing any form of NFP going forward. I do not believe it is the only option, and since the bulk of the work to do it right falls to me, it’s not going to happen. I’m not taking my temp every morning, peeing in a cup, downloading apps, or paying a fortune for a monitor. The answer is simply NO. I have bent over backwards for his reconversion…I’m done.
5. The resolution to the situation is this. I meet with my OBGYN this week to discuss all my options. Personally, I’m kind of hoping for the same wacky papsmear that many women in my family seem to get that calls for the entire system to be yanked for health reasons. Then the argument is just over. However, is that is not the case…then my husband will get to chose: I get a permanent fix so I do not ever have to worry and he can not hold it against me or act like a spoilt child, or no sex ever AT ALL, until he is 60+ years old. That’s really how it falls. Since pregnancy is NOT an option.

I still think that using the pill to treat acne being OK, and using it to prevent PPD is not OK is about the dumbest argument ever.

I would have thought it is not your husband’s decision. I trust he will love you whatever you choose.

 

[TruthSeeker92]

Hi Alix,

I really do care about your situation and you, even though I don’t know you. We’re all Christian here, and you are my sister in Christ. I want the best for you and I hope that you don’t take offense to what I share with you or say.

I hope that if you don’t use NFP anymore that you at least thoroughly research all the methods of contraception to see their risks and effectiveness. For example, a government website lists all the ways that the pill can and does cause many types of cancer in women such as cervical, breast, and liver cancer. I’m not assuming that you will use the pill, but *if *you are considering it as an option you should know the risks.

According to the U.S. National Library of Medicine *“Oral contraceptives may increase the chance that you will develop liver tumors. These tumors are not a form of cancer, but they can break and cause serious bleeding inside the body. Oral contraceptives may also increase the chance that you will develop breast or liver cancer, or have a heart attack, a stroke, or a serious blood clot. Talk to your doctor about the risks of using oral contraceptives.” *

The World Health Organization 's International Agency for Reserach on Cancer has labeled the pill as a group 1 carcinogen, meaning it is carcinogenic to humans. *“Use of OC’s increases risk of breast, cervix and liver cancer…
There is a small increase in the risk of breast cancer in current and recent users of oral contraceptives. However, ten years after cessation of use, the risk appears to be similar to that in never-users. The risk of cervical cancer increases with duration of use of combined oral contraceptives. The risk of hepatocellular carcinoma is increased in long-term users of combined oral contraceptives in populations with low prevalences of hepatitis B infection and chronic liver disease – two major causes of human liver cancer.”
*
Here are some sources about that:

nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/meds/a601050.html#side-effects
iarc.fr/en/media-centre/pr/2005/pr167.html
thepillkills.org/sideeffects.php

 

[TruthSeeker92]

Hi Alix,

I really do care about your situation and you, even though I don’t know you. We’re all Christian here, and you are my sister in Christ. I want the best for you and I hope that you don’t take offense to what I share with you or say.

I hope that if you don’t use NFP anymore that you at least thoroughly research all the methods of contraception to see their risks and effectiveness. For example, a government website lists all the ways that the pill can and does cause many types of cancer in women such as cervical, breast, and liver cancer. I’m not assuming that you will use the pill, but *if *you are considering it as an option you should know the risks.

According to the U.S. National Library of Medicine *“Oral contraceptives may increase the chance that you will develop liver tumors. These tumors are not a form of cancer, but they can break and cause serious bleeding inside the body. Oral contraceptives may also increase the chance that you will develop breast or liver cancer, or have a heart attack, a stroke, or a serious blood clot. Talk to your doctor about the risks of using oral contraceptives.” *

The World Health Organization 's International Agency for Reserach on Cancer has labeled the pill as a group 1 carcinogen, meaning it is carcinogenic to humans. *“Use of OC’s increases risk of breast, cervix and liver cancer…
There is a small increase in the risk of breast cancer in current and recent users of oral contraceptives. However, ten years after cessation of use, the risk appears to be similar to that in never-users. The risk of cervical cancer increases with duration of use of combined oral contraceptives. The risk of hepatocellular carcinoma is increased in long-term users of combined oral contraceptives in populations with low prevalences of hepatitis B infection and chronic liver disease – two major causes of human liver cancer.”
*
Here are some sources about that:

nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/meds/a601050.html#side-effects
iarc.fr/en/media-centre/pr/2005/pr167.html
thepillkills.org/sideeffects.php

I just remembered that you mentioned earlier you do not agree with IUDs or the pill. My apologies!!

 

[TruthSeeker92]

Hi again,

I want to apologize again about the post I wrote about birth control pills. I forgot you mentioned that you would not consider them an option!

I also want to tell you that I do understand how it feels to be depressed and anxious.
It seems really frightening to have depressive episodes post partum. Have you ever heard of post-partum OCD? It’s truly a cross and I don’t think any of us here at CAF would wish you to go through any more mental anguish.

If you are still feeling depressed or anxious, have you considered progesterone therapies?
I found something about PPD and progesterone therapy effectiveness here: naprotechnology.com/depression.htm

 

[Rau]

I just remembered that you mentioned earlier you do not agree with IUDs or the pill. My apologies!!

Oh, so are these the options remaining:

• Condom - in conflict with husband’s moral compass;
• Male sterilisation - in conflict with husband’s moral compass;
• NFP - unacceptable to wife
• Female sterilisation (Alix called it “permanent fix” - acceptable to wife / opposed by husband

I can understand any wife wanting her husband to be “on-board” with any decision to pursue the last of these options. But at the end of the day, it’s not essential if he’s not positively inclined, and not reasonable to demand that he be so. Though they have a difference in perspective on this matter, they each have to do what they believe is right. For the wife, this may turn out to be the permanent “fix”. For the husband, he cannot adopt either of the first two options, and under any other scenario, he must remain loving his wife.

Should Alix choose the last option, there is no impediment (in Catholic moral teaching) to him resuming sexual relationships after the “fix”.

 

[underacloud]

Should Alix choose the last option, there is no impediment (in Catholic moral teaching) to him resuming sexual relationships after the “fix”.

Right. That is precisely the issue from Alix’s original question and the answer is very clear.

But now Alix seems to want her husband to *approve *her getting the fix. This then drags him into the choice and as a Catholic he cannot morally agree to it. He would, if she insists on this approach, either have to participate in the sin (from his perspective) of contraception, or abstain for the rest of her fertile years. That seems to be what she has laid out above. And I’m really not sure why.

 

[Burdock]

From which you conclude…what?

Nothing in the Bible says it is good either. The Bible does not address IVF, or cloning either. What conclusion do you draw?

IVF is a different matter entirely but it has its place in my opinion. This thread is just going round in circles. I find it unbelievable that people believe that contraception is evil. My daughter has been married for almost three years , she has a year of her degree to complete yet and is also coming off antidepressant medication . If she was a catholic she would be expected cto use NFP or abstain. The church is run by men who have no idea about these matters or the realities of family life.I could not stay in a church that has such draconian and damaging beliefs. I have left the church and have gone back to a protestant church, I certainly havent left jesus I love him as I have since a six year old girl and am very settled and at peace with my decision.

 

[Rau]

Right. That is precisely the issue from Alix’s original question and the answer is very clear.

But now Alix seems to want her husband to *approve *her getting the fix. This then drags him into the choice and as a Catholic he cannot morally agree to it. He would, if she insists on this approach, either have to participate in the sin (from his perspective) of contraception, or abstain for the rest of her fertile years. That seems to be what she has laid out above. And I’m really not sure why.

She fears that if she acts unilaterally, there will be repercussions down the track. Alix writes: “…then my husband will get to choose: I get a permanent fix so I do not ever have to worry and he can not hold it against me or act like a spoilt child, or no sex ever AT ALL, until he is 60+ years old. That’s really how it falls. Since pregnancy is NOT an option.”

The husband may answer: “Darling, I love you now and I will love you if you feel unable to ever have sex with me again and I will love you if you have the operation. You know my preference in the matter, and I understand and accept that you rule that out. I accept whatever you choose, and it will not change my love for you.”

I guess there is a lot of tension in the air right now, and maybe not a lot of mutual understanding. Hopefully they will get past the concern about “hold it against me or act like a spoilt child”. Were things in a ‘better place’ between them, the husband would of course do no such thing and the wife should be able to be persuaded that he would not.

 

[Rau]

IVF is a different matter entirely but it has its place in my opinion.

You defended contraception by noting it was not mentioned in the bible.

So…as far as IVF is concerned, you’d only oppose that if the Bible spoke against it? And what about cloning - same deal?

I think what you’re saying is that:

• You take the Bible as authoritative;
• for all matters not explicitly covered off in the Bible, you’ll make your own judgement as to their morality.

Is that a fair summary?

 

[underacloud]

She fears that if she acts unilaterally, there will be repercussions down the track. Alix writes: “…then my husband will get to choose: I get a permanent fix so I do not ever have to worry and he can not hold it against me or act like a spoilt child, or no sex ever AT ALL, until he is 60+ years old. That’s really how it falls. Since pregnancy is NOT an option.”

The husband may answer: “Darling, I love you now and I will love you if you feel unable to ever have sex with me again and I will love you if you have the operation. You know my preference in the matter, and I understand and accept that you rule that out. I accept whatever you choose, and it will not change my love for you.”

I guess there is a lot of tension in the air right not, and maybe not a lot of mutual understanding. Hopefully they will get past the concern about “hold it against me or act like a spoilt child”. Were things in a ‘better place’ between them, the husband would of course do no such thing and the wife should be able to be persuaded that he would not.

Yes, that makes sense. Although Alix also shows a lot of frustration, even anger, towards her husband, so I hope it is not some sort of passive aggressive power game between them.

The husband needs to be properly and clearly informed of his position if she has the tubal ligation against his wishes. This is step 1. This alone may lead him to soften his stance somewhat and, whilst not approving the choice, be less aggressive in his opposition to it. A meeting with his priest may help him see things more clearly and understand Alix’s perspective (as a non-Catholic).

Alix, have you shown your husband the relevant teaching, regarding him being free to have marital relations if you choose to sterilise against his wishes? If so, has that changed the discussion at all?

 

[sailor28]

I wanted to clarify a few things:

1. Pregnancy for me is not life threatening…but it is very difficult, and the PPA and PPD I deal with afterwards is really pretty awful.
2. I am done having kids. period.
3. I do not find barrier methods of ABC to be a sin, and while NFP was great when planning for our 1st, it’s failure led to #2 arriving sooner than we had originally planned.
4. I am not doing any form of NFP going forward. I do not believe it is the only option, and since the bulk of the work to do it right falls to me, it’s not going to happen. I’m not taking my temp every morning, peeing in a cup, downloading apps, or paying a fortune for a monitor. The answer is simply NO. I have bent over backwards for his reconversion…I’m done.
5. The resolution to the situation is this. I meet with my OBGYN this week to discuss all my options. Personally, I’m kind of hoping for the same wacky papsmear that many women in my family seem to get that calls for the entire system to be yanked for health reasons. Then the argument is just over. However, is that is not the case…then my husband will get to chose: I get a permanent fix so I do not ever have to worry and he can not hold it against me or act like a spoilt child, or no sex ever AT ALL, until he is 60+ years old. That’s really how it falls. Since pregnancy is NOT an option.

I still think that using the pill to treat acne being OK, and using it to prevent PPD is not OK is about the dumbest argument ever.

Alix1912,

It is unfortunate that you have to hope you can have your reproductive organs entirely removed to resolve this situation. Being concerned that your husband would act like a spoilt child or refuse sex if you act on your conscience and get your tubes tied is reason to seek marital counseling. Your husband is not obligated to withhold sex from you if you get a tubal ligation.

You mention a bit of cognitive dissonance with this teaching. As a Catholic I agree this teaching is not coherent and in many circumstances lacks common sense. The theological gymnastics people go through to validate this teaching are not something I can accept. Particularly, the theology that insists that a women to whom pregnancy is life threatening must remain open to having a baby every time she has sex. Or that a woman who is 50 years old who has not gone through menopause needs to remain open to having a baby. Basing this whole theology on natural law is just not credible to me. But truly if theology does not pass the common sense test, it is not something I can embrace out of obedience.

I’m sorry that your husband’s conversion is not one that is bringing you closer together but rather that it seems to divide you because he is not willing to respect your faith and beliefs.

 

[klutch]

Dear Alix, You and your husband have been in my prayers. My heart aches for you. I am sorry for not commenting earlier and pray that you are still following this thread. I am disappointed in the apparent lack of understanding of what the marital embrace is and the lack of charity in many of the comments addressing your situation. My wife endured many of the same symptoms as you with each of our children. The nausea, vomiting, heartburn, weight loss, blood clots – leading to daily blood thinner shots, back pain, leg pain, swelling, etc, followed by post-partum depression after the kids were born. It was painful watching her endure these things and having the doctors say “Pregnancy just affects some women that way.” And not being able to do anything that seemed to bring some relief. I hurt knowing that other women endure these things.
When the nausea kicked in late in 2012 we learned she was pregnant again and my wife insisted that one of must be “fixed” or no sex until menopause. This caused me to finally look into exactly what the Catholic Church teaches and why. What I found was a profound illumination of what is love, man, woman, and the relationship between them, but that is a discussion for another time. After wrestling with this for a few months, while my wife was still enduring the suffering she receives during pregnancy, I renewed my search for why does pregnancy affect her this way that started when we were expecting our first child. What I found was NaProTechnology. Dr Hilgers, the founder, has spent his medical career investigating the root causes of challenges women face both during pregnancy and her regular fertility cycle. Many of the conditions my wife, and it appears you, face during pregnancy are related to inadequate human identical progesterone during pregnancy. Unfortunately I learned this just a couple weeks before our daughter was born so she did not receive any relief. Sure enough, a few days after delivery post-partum depression set in. We called Dr Hilgers’ office in Omaha, NE, they verified PPD and prescribed human identical progesterone. It was amazing. Prior to the progesterone shot you could almost see the deep, dark, depressive cloud over my wife. Within 5 minutes of the shot you could see the cloud lifting.
When my wife and I were first married, we first tried to learn the Creighton model NFP system. At the time I couldn’t understand why this Dr Hilger, the main name associated with this system, insisted on mucus only observations when I knew there was a temperature signal also. During my epiphany of 2012 and 2013 I realized the reason was because if a person can not determine where she is in her fertility cycle based on mucus only it indicates something is not functioning quite right in the fertility cycle which can be treated, so why not treat the root cause. When the fertility cycle is not functioning correctly it affects the whole woman. It affects her body, her energy levels, her mental outlook, how she relates to other people etc. In the hands of a doctor trained in NaProTechnology, the chart of the woman’s fertility cycle becomes a tool to diagnose and treat the underlying medical issues that affect the overall well being of the woman so that this beautiful, tender, loving daughter of God can be the nurturing, vibrant woman her Father wants her to be.
A wonderful way for your husband to demonstrate his love for you would be to learn what it is that makes you a woman and the affect that has on how you relate to him and others. For the physical aspects, I would suggest NaProTechnology, Unleashing the Power of the Woman’s Cycle, for the relationship aspects some documents by recent popes that can be found on the internet Familiaris Consortio, Evangelium Vitae, and Humanae Vitae would be a good place to start. A video series, often used for marriage preparation, that ties a lot of this together that you may be able to find in a nearby parish or diocese is God’s Plan for a Joy Filled Marriage. Something that would be good for all of us, your husband included, is to reflect on what is love. The description that I think is most accurate is love is the willing/desire for true good for the person that is loved. Because of how we typically relate to things physically and our selfish inclinations, the man in particular needs to reflect on this and learn how to joyfully sacrifice his desires and give them as a gift to his beloved for the good of his wife and family. As a person grows in understanding of the Catholic church it should be evident in their joy, love and willingness to joyfully sacrifice for others. If your husband is truly reconverted and growing in his faith he should be looking for how he can help you carry your crosses, particularly the ones associated with his rediscovery of the Church. He may have to carry them in a different way than you currently prefer but as we come to a more complete understanding of what man and woman are and how the physical and the supernatural come together in a person we will see how the teaching of the Church will lead us to what we are seeking in this life and the next.
Before committing to the tubal ligation, please look up tubal ligation syndrome on the internet. Most likely your Ob/Gyn will downplay or say only a few people experience it but isn’t that the same thing they said when you tried to find help for your pregnancy difficulties and post-partum depression. Unfortunately, it seems to me that many of the women enduring this condition also had cycle or pregnancy related conditions that they were trying to get away from but they just traded one set of problems for another. I think real healing could have been found in NaProTechnology. May God bless your journey together with love and understanding. You will remain in my prayers.

 

[StGerardMajella]

I still think that using the pill to treat acne being OK, and using it to prevent PPD is not OK is about the dumbest argument ever.

It no doubt takes some serious mental gymnastics.

If pregnancy is truly life endangering, abstinence is the only safe method.

Yes, except for the fact that people actually want to live healthy, active lives and not shut themselves up in a closet for all their waking hours. A more appropriate alternative could potentially be the use of Natural Family Planning in conjunction with other methods, as determined after consultation with a medical professional and a competent spiritual adviser.

StGM - let me ask you - if a pregnant woman were to find herself in grave danger of death caused by the continuation of her pregnancy, would the Church view it as a moral course for her to abort the child? Why/Why not?

Off-topic. Start another thread.

 

[pensmama87]

Yes, except for the fact that people actually want to live healthy, active lives and not shut themselves up in a closet for all their waking hours. A more appropriate alternative could potentially be the use of Natural Family Planning in conjunction with other methods, as determined after consultation with a medical professional and a competent spiritual adviser.

It boggles my mind that so many people think this is what abstinence is. For one thing, single people abstain. Some embrace a lifetime of celibacy, and they live perfectly healthy, active lives.

When it comes to marriage, many couples (I’d argue most) have time periods where they have to abstain even if they don’t practice NFP, and they go on functioning just fine. Are longer periods harder? I imagine they are. But it’s not some crazy, out there proposition put out by mean old Church who’s just trying to make spouses feel like crazed caged animals.

Someone brought up on another thread recently that couples who really, really, really need to abstain from sex to avoid pregnancy tend to not find abstinence nearly as difficult, and I have a suspicion that that is true. The problems come in when spouses disagree on a need. “Pregnancy = so high percentage of dying” is not likely to cause a lot of disagreement.

 

[Rau]

…Yes, except for the fact that people actually want to live healthy, active lives and not shut themselves up in a closet for all their waking hours.

That’s an odd way to describe abstinence from sex! Consider the family wherein the husband loses sexual function as a consequence of an injury. While all are greatly impacted by the impact of the injury on work, mobility, etc., I don’t believe the typical wife will decide that the absence of sexual relations is simply intolerable and walk out!

 

[Burt_Macklin]

That’s an odd way to describe abstinence from sex! Consider the family wherein the husband loses sexual function as a consequence of an injury. While all are greatly impacted by the impact of the injury on work, mobility, etc., I don’t believe the typical wife will decide that the absence of sexual relations is simply intolerable and walk out!

Reminds me of an old joke.

A woman accompanied her husband to the doctor’s office.

After his checkup, the doctor called the wife into his office alone. He said, “Your husband is suffering from a very severe stress disorder. If you don’t follow my instructions carefully, your husband will surely die.”

“Each morning, fix him a healthy breakfast. Be pleasant at all times. For lunch make him a nutritious meal. For dinner prepare an especially nice meal for him.”

“Don’t burden him with chores. Don’t discuss your problems with him; it will only make his stress worse. Do not nag him. Most importantly, make love to him regularly.”

“If you can do this for the next 10 months to a year, I think your husband will regain his health completely.”

On the way home, the husband asked his wife, “What did the doctor say?”

“He said you’re going to die,” she replied.

So no I don’t believe most marriages would last. However, I don’t believe you should ever murder your spouse except in the most extreme circumstances and under the supervision of a competent spiritual adviser.