Non-Catholic view of Apparitions, Incorruptibles, Miraculous Healings, etc.

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andrewstx said:
Why? I think it’s becuase new age is hip and “cool”, while Catholic miracles come across to him as “old fashioned”.
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There was a little girl who was born without pupils. Her mother took her to see St. Padre Pio. On the train ride there, as her mother was praying, the little girl could suddenly see. She was checked by doctors and no one could explain how she could see without any pupils. She never had pupils her entire life but could see perfeclty. She died only about 20 or so years ago but was a walking testimony. Sorry, I just don’t think events like this can ever be considered “old fashioned”. Maybe miracles are not believed by those who are afraid they may have to change their lives if they found it were true.
 
SteveVH said:
There was a little girl who was born without pupils. Her mother took her to see St. Padre Pio. On the train ride there, as her mother was praying, the little girl could suddenly see. She was checked by doctors and no one could explain how she could see without any pupils. She never had pupils her entire life but could see perfeclty. She died only about 20 or so years ago but was a walking testimony. Sorry, I just don’t think events like this can ever be considered “old fashioned”. Maybe miracles are not believed by those who are afraid they may have to change their lives if they found it were true.
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Very well said, yet we should place caution, as there are many phonies out there. The Church thoroughly investigates these matters meticulously. Sometimes, such as in the case of Saint Bernadette, she was investigated exhaustibly by the Church itself, as it was with Saint Padre Pio; even to the point of harassment.

Non-believers should take care to get the facts and the whole story; but as you stated Steve, they might be afraid of what they will discover; the Truth that is.

God Bless
 
SteveVH said:
Yes, I’ve seen the potato chip with the face of Mary type things. It makes it very easy to joke about. But what do you think of the real deal? Why does God make himself known in this way and why do people seem to want to ignore it?
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If there are people who have genuinely seen the BVM, I myself would not question their story. Like I’ve said, I’ve seen Lucifer. As to why people ignore God’s signs and wonders, i’ll never know.
 
SteveVH said:
Just got through reading an incredible book, the author of which investigated various miraculous events; Eucharistic miracles, bleeding statues, Our Lady of Guadalupe and others. My purpose here is not to dwell on the book. It just struck me that Catholic history is absolutely bursting at the seams with miraculous events which are signs of God’s presence and activity within the Catholic Church.

These are events that have been investigated thoroughly and found beyond explanation in the natural world. Some, such as the Miracle at Fatima, were witnessed by over 70,000 people. Modern science has studied the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe and determined that it is not a painting, no pigment is present in the fiber. In fact the image hovers 0.032 mm above the fiber. The numbers of documented miraculous healings at Lourdes is famous. We have saints who’s bodies have never decomposed, after hundreds of years.

My question is simply; what do non-Catholics think about all of this? Does it influence your faith in any way? Does it say anything about the Catholic Church in your view? Do you think it is all a bunch of bunk? I realize that miracles happen outside of the Catholic Church as well, but not even close in number and magnitude to those documented by the Catholic Church.

Thanks in advance.

Steve
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Before I seriously started looking at Catholicism:
  • I had never heard of any of the miracles brought up here.
  • believed there wasn’t any such thing as miracles. Everything could be explained scientifically, if it couldn’t, it was either a hoax or science didn’t have enough information to explain.
The first time I read about Fatima was the first time I had read of anything that that couldn’t be explained scientifically. Especially with so many witnesses.

Other than that, it is human nature to ignore facts that don’t align to what you want to believe.
 
Several posters here have intimated that non-believers obstinately deny powerful miraculous events in an equally obstinate attempt to deny The Truth. However, at other times on these forums, others have claimed that God doesn’t give us undeniable proofs of his existence (such as restoring lost limbs) because such proofs would, in effect, compel belief and violate our free will. If the latter is true, then it would seem that any miracles that may have been provided so far were intended to be the sort that would not compel belief and, therefore, non-believers can hardly be blamed for not believing in them.
 
what do non-Catholics think about all of this?
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I don’t think about it very often. There are some things I think probably happened and some I think did not.
Does it influence your faith in any way?
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No.
Does it say anything about the Catholic Church in your view?
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Nothing more than any other non-Orthodox church. God can work through any instrument He chooses, and people will look for confirmation of their beliefs regardless of their church.
Do you think it is all a bunch of bunk?
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No. I do believe the Theotokos created an image-not-made-with-hands in Guadalupe. I believe God honors the faith of pilgrims by healing them at Lourdes. I don’t believe she appeared at Fatima.
I realize that miracles happen outside of the Catholic Church as well, but not even close in number and magnitude to those documented by the Catholic Church.
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If you say so. In Orthodoxy miracles are often seen as embarrassing - they show a lack of faith on behalf of those who receive them.
 
cornbread_r2 said:
Several posters here have intimated that non-believers obstinately deny powerful miraculous events in an equally obstinate attempt to deny The Truth. However, at other times on these forums, others have claimed that God doesn’t give us undeniable proofs of his existence (such as restoring lost limbs) because such proofs would, in effect, compel belief and violate our free will.
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I don’t know that I agree with that. Restoring sight to the blind would seem to me to fall in a similar category. At least the once blind person might be compelled, even if no one else were.
If the latter is true, then it would seem that any miracles that may have been provided so far were intended to be the sort that would not compel belief and, therefore, non-believers can hardly be blamed for not believing in them.
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I’m not understanding your logic.

But, I don’t know that they have to be ascribed any meaning. 🤷 They speak for themselves.

Belief in any of the miracles listed is not required for anyone. But whether or not they are believed, isn’t really relevant if they really happened. It would be like saying, you don’t believe it is raining when it is in fact raining.
 
I was raised evangelical Protestant and converted to Catholicism in 2004.

I hope these words don’t seem too harsh or offensive to Catholics, but I’m only trying to answer your question. I hope that my answer will help Catholics when they are talking to others about the miracles.

In the evangelical Protestant churches that I was part of , we said that these “miracles” do not call attention to Jesus Christ, but to human beings, Mary and the saints. This proved to us that the miracles were not from God. 😦

Catholics would and should argue that these miracles occur in order to point people to Jesus, not to humans. But that’s not what is reported or talked about. What the evangelical Protestants hear and see in the media is “An apparition of the Virgin Mary appeared…” or “A miraculous preservation of a French nun…”

No mention of Jesus Christ.

Do you understand what I am saying?

Even in your opening post, there is no mention of Jesus Christ. You bring up the miracles of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and Fatima, and various saints, and you point out that these “prove” the validity of the Catholic Church. But you do not mention that these miracles occur in order to point people to Jesus!

Of course, we Catholics know and understand that the miracles are not meant to glorify Mary or the saints, and that the results of these miracles is belief in Jesus as Savior and Lord. But Protestants do NOT know and understand this! They know only what they read and see, and what they read and see is all about Mary and other humans, not about Jesus. 😦

I hope I am making this clear and understandable. I am speaking the truth, at least when it comes to evangelical Protestantism.

My suggestion is that when talking or writing about these miracles to evangelical Protestants, always ALWAYS make sure to understate the actual miracles and instead, emphasize the effects of the miracles, namely that people repent of their sins and come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ. Make sure that the evangelical Protestant knows that Jesus Christ receives all the honor and glory for this miracle, not the Virgin Mary or any human being.

Unfortunately, most of the time, an evangelical Protestant will not hear about these miracles from a Catholic who can explain how they glorify Jesus, but they hear about the miracles from the secular media, which distorts what actually happened and fails to explain why it happened. 😦

Again, I do not mean to be offensive, but only say these words so that you will know and understand the minds of the evangelical Protestants.
 
I thunk the problem is that people think that the supernatural is superstition. So they see and hear but they don’t perceive or understand.
 
@Cat. I think the concept of miracles is not known and perhaps poorly explained that most Catholics also do not know what and why a miracle happens. Of course apparition like Fatima comes with a message but not all miracles are that clear cut. Thus it is left for private interpretation and assumption, and that constitutes much of the problem. We do not give good public relation to the other Christians about miracles. How could we when we ourselves are not even clear about what and why there’s a miracle? Most so called miracles generate big publicity and they are not even ratified by the Church. So everyone is free to give their opinions and people outside the Church receive mixed messages. Often times miracles tend to lead to devotion and the devotees can get carried away and upset some people in the church and that can lead to conflicting opinions on the said miracle.

And it is right. Not all miracles seem to point to Jesus.

Perhaps with miracles that come without clear message, some pertinent questions need to be asked. Like what is the I purpose of the miracle, why it happens at a certain time and not before or after? And these are not easy questions to answer because answers simply are not given.
 
I believe in miracles, but this is not why I am Catholic, and I do not accept miracles not recognized (directly or indirectly) by the Church. From a theistic point of view miracles are more than plausible, but when I was an atheist I would give miracles psychological and theoretical scientific explanations or dismiss them as lies. The blood miracle of St. Januarius, for example, may be easily be given a valid theoretical scientific explanation. Protestants may dismiss Catholic miracles for the same reasons, or blame the devil, just as we do non-Catholic miracles.
 
My thoughts on apparitions, incorruptible’s, and miracles is they are important for people who struggle with there faith. Because I Love Jesus, and submit to his will, I think of them as a part of Our Lords Greater Plan.

I find greater value in Daily Mass, receiving communion most days, weekly confession, prayers and personal meditations with my God daily, as proof to his continuing presents in my life.

If we look closer to our daily life we see his presents all around us. We only have to fine peace in our self, and look to Jesus, and you will see all of his great works before you. Take the time to be in his presents .

I believe it was St Augustine who said, God is In Us, turn your thoughts inward to Jesus and you will find Him. I Love meditation. Jesus truly is a personal Love Story.
 
SteveVH said:
Just got through reading an incredible book, the author of which investigated various miraculous events; Eucharistic miracles, bleeding statues, Our Lady of Guadalupe and others. My purpose here is not to dwell on the book. It just struck me that Catholic history is absolutely bursting at the seams with miraculous events which are signs of God’s presence and activity within the Catholic Church.

These are events that have been investigated thoroughly and found beyond explanation in the natural world. Some, such as the Miracle at Fatima, were witnessed by over 70,000 people. Modern science has studied the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe and determined that it is not a painting, no pigment is present in the fiber. **In fact the image hovers 0.032 mm above the fiber. ** The numbers of documented miraculous healings at Lourdes is famous. We have saints who’s bodies have never decomposed, after hundreds of years.

My question is simply; what do non-Catholics think about all of this? Does it influence your faith in any way? Does it say anything about the Catholic Church in your view? Do you think it is all a bunch of bunk? I realize that miracles happen outside of the Catholic Church as well, but not even close in number and magnitude to those documented by the Catholic Church.

Thanks in advance.

Steve
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Where did you find the bolded information?
 
SteveVH said:
Why can’t you? Has anyone proven they don’t exist? 😃

What aren’t you sure about?
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It is impossible to prove Bigfoot’s non-existence, you can only point the lack of positive evidence for his existence.

Re miracles, I have trouble with them since I am not in a position to investigate any myself, being separated in time and space from all the famous ones. I trust the Church, I also know that people can get carried away on both sides. Also, isn’t all public revelation complete?

Finally, I agree with Cat’s assessment of how Protestants view these things, also being a former Protestant. The focus on Christ needs to be made apparent for evangelically leaning Protestants.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Before I seriously started looking at Catholicism:
  • I had never heard of any of the miracles brought up here.
  • believed there wasn’t any such thing as miracles. Everything could be explained scientifically, if it couldn’t, it was either a hoax or science didn’t have enough information to explain.
The first time I read about Fatima was the first time I had read of anything that that couldn’t be explained scientifically. Especially with so many witnesses.

Other than that, it is human nature to ignore facts that don’t align to what you want to believe.
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I think you hit it on the head.
 
Stilldreamn said:
I see what you mean; what I was thinking about was that miracles are the work of God, not the powers of men. I wasn’t dissing the Church :o
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I know. Its just easy for all of us to forget what the Church really is, mysefl included.
 
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