Non-Catholic witness for baptism

[Hesychios]

Non-Catholic witness for baptism, when did that start?

After a long hiatus my daughter is finally back in church, and she with her husband have decided to baptize my grandchild. However somethig is puzzling (and to some degree disturbing) me.

They have selected a ‘non-Catholic witness’ instead of a Godfather.

I don’t remember anything like that when I was raising kids. Is this something new? Is it like a proxy? Does the Catholic church allow this everywhere?

I am confused.

 

[st_felicity]

Non-Catholic witness for baptism, when did that start?

After a long hiatus my daughter is finally back in church, and she with her husband have decided to baptize my grandchild. However somethig is puzzling (and to some degree disturbing) me.

They have selected a ‘non-Catholic witness’ instead of a Godfather.

I don’t remember anything like that when I was raising kids. Is this something new? Is it like a proxy? Does the Catholic church allow this everywhere?

I am confused.

Someone who is actually Catholic will be listed as Godparent in the church documents, most likely.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I don’t remember just when it was authorized. I suspect it came with the new Code of Canon Law, which is the early 80’s I think.

SPONSORS
Can. 872 Insofar as possible, a person to be baptized is to be given a sponsor who assists an adult in Christian initiation or together with the parents presents an infant for baptism. A sponsor also helps the baptized person to lead a Christian life in keeping with baptism and to fulfill faithfully the obligations inherent in it.
Can. 873 There is to be only one male sponsor or one female sponsor or one of each.
Can. 874 §1. To be permitted to take on the function of sponsor a person must:
1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function;
2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, unless the diocesan bishop has established another age, or the pastor or minister has granted an exception for a just cause;
3/ be a Catholic who has been confirmed and has already received the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist and who leads a life of faith in keeping with the function to be taken on;
4/ not be bound by any canonical penalty legitimately imposed or declared;
5/ not be the father or mother of the one to be baptized.
§2. A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community is not to participate except together with a Catholic sponsor and then only as a witness of the baptism.

 

[beth40n2]

Joe I am so glad you quoted the law.

You have to have one Catholic godparent and then there can be one non-Catholic baptised Christian as a sponsor or witness.

 

[Phemie]

Joe I am so glad you quoted the law.

You have to have one Catholic godparent and then there can be one non-Catholic baptised Christian as a sponsor or witness.

Not as a sponsor – you can’t sponsor someone into a Church to which you don’t belong. A non-Catholic participates as a witness only.

 

[Hesychios]

Not as a sponsor – you can’t sponsor someone into a Church to which you don’t belong. A non-Catholic participates as a witness only.

OK, but what is the point of having a witness? God is our witness, and anyone can come and watch, but that doesn’t supply the need of Godparenting. Where is the commitment?

I just don’t understand this…

 

[puzzleannie]

OK, but what is the point of having a witness? God is our witness, and anyone can come and watch, but that doesn’t supply the need of Godparenting. Where is the commitment?

I just don’t understand this…

I think the change was to allow for a situation such as a Catholic married to a non-Catholic Christian standing up for the child. The Catholic is the godparent, the spouse is the Christian witness. There must be a godparent who fills all the requirements, which means adult, practicing Catholic, fully initiated.

 

[Phemie]

OK, but what is the point of having a witness? God is our witness, and anyone can come and watch, but that doesn’t supply the need of Godparenting. Where is the commitment?

I just don’t understand this…

Well, you only need one godparent – and in a pinch you don’t even need a godparent, Canon 872 says "Insofar as possible, a person to be baptized is to be given a sponsor who assists an adult in Christian initiation or together with the parents presents an infant for baptism. A sponsor also helps the baptized person to lead a Christian life in keeping with baptism and to fulfill faithfully the obligations inherent in it."

It’s been my experience that often sponsors don’t meet the Canon Law requirements. I still get sick to my stomach when I think of a recent baptism in my parish where the godparents were a divorced couple and the godmother, the baby’s aunt, attended with her married lover in tow and sat with him rather than with the parents.

 

[Hesychios]

Well, you only need one godparent – and in a pinch you don’t even need a godparent,

According to the modern canons, and modern attitudes, I suppose that is true.

But I don’t personally agree one needs only one godparent. The newly baptized really needs a community, but I think just the association with parenting reveals the actual traditional role of the couple.

I wonder then, do the canons demand that each godparent be from each opposite gender? If we only need one, and perhaps not even one godparent, then I suppose one could have a male godparent and a male sponsor too, or perhaps two male or two female godparents - or even three godparents! Why limit this to two?

Canon 872 says "Insofar as possible, a person to be baptized is to be given a sponsor who assists an adult in Christian initiation or together with the parents presents an infant for baptism. A sponsor also helps the baptized person to lead a Christian life in keeping with baptism and to fulfill faithfully the obligations inherent in it."

Insofar as possible, but not ultimately necessary?

It’s been my experience that often sponsors don’t meet the Canon Law requirements. I still get sick to my stomach when I think of a recent baptism in my parish where the godparents were a divorced couple and the godmother, the baby’s aunt, attended with her married lover in tow and sat with him rather than with the parents.

I don’t see how any pastor can countenance that.

I agree with you, it is sickening.

 

[Phemie]

According to the modern canons, and modern attitudes, I suppose that is true.

But I don’t personally agree one needs only one godparent. The newly baptized really needs a community, but I think just the association with parenting reveals the actual traditional role of the couple.

I wonder then, do the canons demand that each godparent be from each opposite gender?

Yes.

If we only need one, and perhaps not even one godparent, then I suppose one could have a male godparent and a male sponsor too, or perhaps two male or two female godparents - or even three godparents! Why limit this to two?

Canon Law limits it to two. See here for canons concerning godparents.

Remember that Sponsor=godparent and sponsor ≠ Christian witness.

 

[Hesychios]

Thanks for the info, it has helped me understand a little better.

It seems like the ‘Christian Witness’ is a meaningless position.

In the case of my family and probably others, I think it is being abused, as an excuse to ‘honor’ a non-Catholic friend of the family who can contribute nothing toward the proper formation of a new Catholic Christian.

I can understand the use of a proxy, but this is nothing of the kind.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I wonder then, do the canons demand that each godparent be from each opposite gender? If we only need one, and perhaps not even one godparent, then I suppose one could have a male godparent and a male sponsor too, or perhaps two male or two female godparents - or even three godparents! Why limit this to two?

In the Philippines its customary to have a horde of godparents. But there is whom they call the primary sponsors, who are the actual Canonical godparents, and then the other dozen or so are secondary sponsors, who are more ceremonial. Cultural norms dictate that you need to make godparents all your friends, close relatives, and other people who you think will be offended if they are not made godparents. Yes, even your boss whom you didn’t like. The good part is that you get presents for Christmas from your godparents, you even go to their own homes to ask for it

 

[Hesychios]

In the Philippines its customary to have a horde of godparents. But there is whom they call the primary sponsors, who are the actual Canonical godparents, and then the other dozen or so are secondary sponsors, who are more ceremonial.

Now this I like.

We are saved in community. When everyone wants to get in on the act it is a hopeful sign for us all, and I really respect that practice.

What I don’t respect is the option to name a Lutheran as a witness in lieu of a Catholic as a sponsor.

Cultural norms dictate that you need to make godparents all your friends, close relatives, and other people who you think will be offended if they are not made godparents.

That I can understand.

It seems that the cultural norms in the USA dictate naming non- Catholics now for similar reasons. I guess good candidates for godparenting are getting scarce as hen’s teeth.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Now this I like.

We are saved in community. When everyone wants to get in on the act it is a hopeful sign for us all, and I really respect that practice.

What I don’t respect is the option to name a Lutheran as a witness in lieu of a Catholic as a sponsor.
That I can understand.

It seems that the cultural norms in the USA dictate naming non- Catholics now for similar reasons. I guess good candidates for godparenting are getting scarce as hen’s teeth.

Oh, I forgot to mention, since the “secondary” godparents are not canonical, there is no check done by the priest for them. They just show up during baptism and get to sign the cross on the forhead of the baby. So the chances that some or even all of them are non-Catholic is there.

The thing about the Philippines is that being mostly Roman Catholics, cultural practices have intertwined with religious practices. Having godparents for children is widely seen as a cultural act as well so non-Catholics are not averse to the practice.

I do wish that practice is done everywhere. I’m a bit disappointed with my chosen godfather for my son who not so soon after the baptism (he wasn’t even there but for understandable reasons) started attending a Protestant church. Now my son doesn’t have a Catholic godfather