Non-Catholics, a question

[kalt]

In reading another thread, I see that some non-Catholics who post here are annoyed at the vigor with which Catholics defend the faith.

I’m wondering, were you surprised (when you first came here) that Catholics defend the faith? Were you surprised that Catholics aren’t really that open to the evangelical efforts of those outside the CC? Did you expect Catholics to be more willing to compromise on doctrine?

 

[dianaiad]

In reading another thread, I see that some non-Catholics who post here are annoyed at the vigor with which Catholics defend the faith.

I’m wondering, were you surprised (when you first came here) that Catholics defend the faith? Were you surprised that Catholics aren’t really that open to the evangelical efforts of those outside the CC? Did you expect Catholics to be more willing to compromise on doctrine?

Define ‘defend the faith.’

If by that you mean correcting the mistakes others make about what Catholic doctrine actually is…why no, I"m not surprised. They should be defending the faith in that matter and should do so in as vehement a manner as they need to.

If by that you mean that they attack the faith of OTHERS who post here in non-Catholic religions, well, I had hoped for a little more civility, but in all frankness, this forum is far more polite about it than most.

But as I mentioned, you need to define 'defending the faith."

 

[SSTeacher]

In reading another thread, I see that some non-Catholics who post here are annoyed at the vigor with which Catholics defend the faith.

I’m wondering, were you surprised (when you first came here) that Catholics defend the faith? Were you surprised that Catholics aren’t really that open to the evangelical efforts of those outside the CC? Did you expect Catholics to be more willing to compromise on doctrine?

I first came across this website last November, at which time I was a SOLO Scriptura Evangelical without a church home and was seriously considering converting either to Holy Orthodoxy or Catholicism. I wasn’t surprised to discover that most Catholics defended their faith but what did surprise me was that some Catholics seemed to understand apologetics not as the branch of theology that deals with the defensive facts and proofs of Christianity but as a tool they could use to attack and insult people who did not believe as they did. Indeed, I can recall one apparently irritated Catholic who seemed angry with me as a result of a question I’d asked in an Original Post in the Non–Catholic Religions forum and who made a point of asking me why I didn’t go to a Protestant forum to ask my question asserting that my question was “stupid.”

My feelings were hurt, of course, but that might have had something to do with my stupidity. Perhaps if I’d been less stupid I’d have been able to perceive that there was in fact no insult. This was but Catholic “vigor,” and this is, after all, a Catholic forum.

Sadly,
Mick
:sad_bye:

 

[Syele]

Defense of Faith didn’t surprise me. Lack of Charity did.

 

[Jolly_Joe]

In reading another thread, I see that some non-Catholics who post here are annoyed at the vigor with which Catholics defend the faith.

I’m wondering, were you surprised (when you first came here) that Catholics defend the faith? Were you surprised that Catholics aren’t really that open to the evangelical efforts of those outside the CC? Did you expect Catholics to be more willing to compromise on doctrine?

Sometimes there a bit of ego involved where people take disagreement with what they say as almost a personal affront. I didn’t really come here thinking all Catholics would be suddenly transformed by a few word I had written. I came to learn, learn about Catholics and Catholicism and indeed about God.

While I disagree in places I would recognize that there are indeed things to be learned.

Was I surprised at the vigor? Well in some ways. I must admit I’m rather surprised how often people are recommended to read books that are clearly filled with errors, indeed that’s why they fit what some people want to think so well. One of those would be “Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger”

The person who wrote it was no historian and he wrote a quite motivated history, and that seems to be what people love. It’s like it predated where people pick their news channel based on which will tell them what they want to hear, but it’s really the same thing.

And there are indeed often historical mistakes said about Luther. I’ve tried correcting them, but people seem to just think I’m a Lutheran so I’m wrong or something. I would think that with the commandment on bearing false witness that people would take such a challenge seriously enough to make sure that they are not guilty of breaking the commandment, but that is indeed very rare.

I was surprised at that. The Catholics I know personally would be careful if they are told something they are saying is wrong and false witness that they would check it out. But here, well, I don’t find that.

So while I hoped to pick up some understanding of history, I find that many Catholics literally hold to a made up history. One that is so perfect. It’s almost like the Muslims who claim every copy of the Quran is exactly the same and such. Nice story, too bad it’s not true.

So yes, I was surprised at the vigor to which many cling to a false history. And so the site isn’t very useful to me. What is said is untrustworthy.

 

[dianaiad]

Define ‘defend the faith.’

If by that you mean correcting the mistakes others make about what Catholic doctrine actually is…why no, I"m not surprised. They should be defending the faith in that matter and should do so in as vehement a manner as they need to.

If by that you mean that they attack the faith of OTHERS who post here in non-Catholic religions, well, I had hoped for a little more civility, but in all frankness, this forum is far more polite about it than most.

But as I mentioned, you need to define 'defending the faith."

I’m adding an addendum to this post. See…here is what is on the sidebar of the page upon which this post appeared:

When Mormons Call
Isaiah Bennett

Beginning Apologetics Vol. 4: How To Answer Atheists And New Agers
Father Frank Chacon and Jim Burnham

Inside Mormonism: What Mormons Really Believe
Isaiah Bennet

How is advertising the above ‘defending’ the CATHOLIC faith?

 

[kalt]

I’m adding an addendum to this post. See…here is what is on the sidebar of the page upon which this post appeared:

When Mormons Call
Isaiah Bennett

Beginning Apologetics Vol. 4: How To Answer Atheists And New Agers
Father Frank Chacon and Jim Burnham

Inside Mormonism: What Mormons Really Believe
Isaiah Bennet

How is advertising the above ‘defending’ the CATHOLIC faith?

I think those publications are useful to Catholics who want to answer those who come a’callin. If you know what the other believes, you’re better prepared to answer the challenges they’ll make against the CC. Same for athiesits and new agers, of course.

By defend the faith, I meant answering challenges to the faith, not only correcting misconceptions about the faith.

 

[Amicus_Curae]

I first came across this website last November, at which time I was a SOLO Scriptura Evangelical without a church home and was seriously considering converting either to Holy Orthodoxy or Catholicism. I wasn’t surprised to discover that most Catholics defended their faith but what did surprise me was that some Catholics seemed to understand apologetics not as the branch of theology that deals with the defensive facts and proofs of Christianity but as a tool they could use to attack and insult people who did not believe as they did. Indeed, I can recall one apparently irritated Catholic who seemed angry with me as a result of a question I’d asked in an Original Post in the Non–Catholic Religions forum and who made a point of asking me why I didn’t go to a Protestant forum to ask my question asserting that my question was “stupid.”

My feelings were hurt, of course, but that might have had something to do with my stupidity. Perhaps if I’d been less stupid I’d have been able to perceive that there was in fact no insult. This was but Catholic “vigor,” and this is, after all, a Catholic forum.

Sadly,
Mick
:sad_bye:

I had the very same happen to me when I joined I was immediately assulted by a fundycat and came out all scratced and torn up from that one sided feline fight

 

[dianaiad]

I think those publications are useful to Catholics who want to answer those who come a’callin. If you know what the other believes, you’re better prepared to answer the challenges they’ll make against the CC. Same for athiesits and new agers, of course.

By defend the faith, I meant answering challenges to the faith, not only correcting misconceptions about the faith.

Answering challenges to the faith means, as far as I understand, discussing the issue at hand, not attacking the beliefs of the other person. It’s a “this is why we believe this…” not “you are an idiot and going to hell for believing that.”

The books I listed: the one about 'What Mormons really believe…" for instance—I haven’t even read it and I’ll bet you anything that it doesn’t tell you what ‘ormons really believe’ any more than CARM tells you what Catholics ‘really’ believe. I

…and that is not helping Catholics understand the beliefs of others. It’s attacking the other beliefs…and you will not find any publication by the LDS church, either officially published or unofficially sanctioned, that is even remotely like “What Catholics really believe” or “How to answer a Catholic” or “How to talk to atheists and new agers.”

In fact, I was just IN a Deseret Book store in SLC a few days ago, and I found the section that dealt with other religions. Sort of.

There was a shelf (well, half a shelf) of books that were responses to “The Godmakers,” responses to “The Maze of Mormonism” and responses to other books like “What Mormons really believe…”

Not one book or pamphlet that attempts to set Mormons straight about what Catholics ‘really’ believe, or gives the average Latter-day Saint instructions on how to deal with Jehovah’s Witnesses at the door, or how to talk to atheists, new agers, Catholics or Baptists.

If you don’t believe me on this issue, Deseret Books has a website with a full catalogue of books that they publish. See if you can find even one book that attempts to explain what any other religion “really” believes so that the Mormons can be “inoculated against their wicked and deceitful ways” (that quote, in various forms, comes from almost every single book about Mormonism that is published by non-Mormon religions.)

Yeah, I’m a little tired of it. Parker, here, is patience personified. I have to admire it…I can’t do what he does. I can’t put up with the insults the way he can.

 

[kalt]

Answering challenges to the faith means, as far as I understand, discussing the issue at hand, not attacking the beliefs of the other person. It’s a “this is why we believe this…” not “you are an idiot and going to hell for believing that.”

The books I listed: the one about 'What Mormons really believe…" for instance—I haven’t even read it and I’ll bet you anything that it doesn’t tell you what ‘ormons really believe’ any more than CARM tells you what Catholics ‘really’ believe. I

…and that is not helping Catholics understand the beliefs of others. It’s attacking the other beliefs…and you will not find any publication by the LDS church, either officially published or unofficially sanctioned, that is even remotely like “What Catholics really believe” or “How to answer a Catholic” or “How to talk to atheists and new agers.”

In fact, I was just IN a Deseret Book store in SLC a few days ago, and I found the section that dealt with other religions. Sort of.

There was a shelf (well, half a shelf) of books that were responses to “The Godmakers,” responses to “The Maze of Mormonism” and responses to other books like “What Mormons really believe…”

Not one book or pamphlet that attempts to set Mormons straight about what Catholics ‘really’ believe, or gives the average Latter-day Saint instructions on how to deal with Jehovah’s Witnesses at the door, or how to talk to atheists, new agers, Catholics or Baptists.

If you don’t believe me on this issue, Deseret Books has a website with a full catalogue of books that they publish. See if you can find even one book that attempts to explain what any other religion “really” believes so that the Mormons can be “inoculated against their wicked and deceitful ways” (that quote, in various forms, comes from almost every single book about Mormonism that is published by non-Mormon religions.)

Yeah, I’m a little tired of it. Parker, here, is patience personified. I have to admire it…I can’t do what he does. I can’t put up with the insults the way he can.

You need to find a new bookstore. I’ve been to Christian bookstores that sell books on Catholicism that are full of lies. But I’ve never been to a Catholic bookstore that sells similar books about other religions.

Come to a Catholic bookstore if you want to know the truth about Catholicism.

If you haven’t read a book yet, you can’t know what’s in it. Your complaint about that ad on the forum is invalid. If you’ve read the book and know it to be full of lies, your complaint would be valid.

 

[elts1956]

I first came across this website last November, at which time I was a SOLO Scriptura Evangelical without a church home and was seriously considering converting either to Holy Orthodoxy or Catholicism. I wasn’t surprised to discover that most Catholics defended their faith but what did surprise me was that some Catholics seemed to understand apologetics not as the branch of theology that deals with the defensive facts and proofs of Christianity but as a tool they could use to attack and insult people who did not believe as they did. Indeed, I can recall one apparently irritated Catholic who seemed angry with me as a result of a question I’d asked in an Original Post in the Non–Catholic Religions forum and who made a point of asking me why I didn’t go to a Protestant forum to ask my question asserting that my question was “stupid.”

My feelings were hurt, of course, but that might have had something to do with my stupidity. Perhaps if I’d been less stupid I’d have been able to perceive that there was in fact no insult. This was but Catholic “vigor,” and this is, after all, a Catholic forum.

Sadly,
Mick
:sad_bye:

There is no excuse for rudeness to anyone, on any thread on these forums. It seems, from the posts I have read, that those who are not Catholic and have come here looking for information about the Catholic Church have been insulted.

Sometimes it is so hard to read the intention of the poster and misunderstandings occur. Most people have difficulty being clear in writing their feelings and also interpreting what was said. Many times we are insulted when that wasn’t the intention of the poster.

So please come back and give us another chance. If you feel insulted tell the poster that is what you feel and ask if that was his intention.

 

[elts1956]

I first came across this website last November, at which time I was a SOLO Scriptura Evangelical without a church home and was seriously considering converting either to Holy Orthodoxy or Catholicism. I wasn’t surprised to discover that most Catholics defended their faith but what did surprise me was that some Catholics seemed to understand apologetics not as the branch of theology that deals with the defensive facts and proofs of Christianity but as a tool they could use to attack and insult people who did not believe as they did. Indeed, I can recall one apparently irritated Catholic who seemed angry with me as a result of a question I’d asked in an Original Post in the Non–Catholic Religions forum and who made a point of asking me why I didn’t go to a Protestant forum to ask my question asserting that my question was “stupid.”

My feelings were hurt, of course, but that might have had something to do with my stupidity. Perhaps if I’d been less stupid I’d have been able to perceive that there was in fact no insult. This was but Catholic “vigor,” and this is, after all, a Catholic forum.

Sadly,
Mick
:sad_bye:

You need to find a new bookstore. I’ve been to Christian bookstores that sell books on Catholicism that are full of lies. But I’ve never been to a Catholic bookstore that sells similar books about other religions.

Come to a Catholic bookstore if you want to know the truth about Catholicism.

If you haven’t read a book yet, you can’t know what’s in it. Your complaint about that ad on the forum is invalid. If you’ve read the book and know it to be full of lies, your complaint would be valid.

Ignatius Press is another good source. If you don’t want to buy a specific book, you can at least find the names of authors who will give the Catholic side of the Faith. I think anything written by anyone about another religion to which they don’t belong is going to be slanted.

 

[dianaiad]

You need to find a new bookstore. I’ve been to Christian bookstores that sell books on Catholicism that are full of lies. But I’ve never been to a Catholic bookstore that sells similar books about other religions.

Uhm, don’t look now, but you are advertising just that sort of book right here on the sidebar of “non-Catholic religions”. I quoted the titles of three of 'em.

But you are quite correct, “Christian” bookstores are FULL of anti-Catholic nonsense, and you would probably find them in their rather extensive ‘cult’ section. Catholics are targets of this sort of…thing…as much or more than anybody else; and frankly, it’s why I am surprised that Catholics indulge in it themselves.

Come to a Catholic bookstore if you want to know the truth about Catholicism.

Actually, I make a point of going to the Catholics to learn about Catholicism, so when I want to read a book about it, a Catholic book store is precisely where I WILL go. I will not go there, however, to learn about Judaism, the Jehovah’s Witnesses or the Mormons.

If you haven’t read a book yet, you can’t know what’s in it. Your complaint about that ad on the forum is invalid. If you’ve read the book and know it to be full of lies, your complaint would be valid.

I said what I did as a wager, of sorts. I’ve read this type of book for years…over forty years, as a matter of fact. I’ve read a bunch of 'em, and there is one thing they all have in common.

They get it wrong. Oh, I’ve actually read some that are (deceptively, mind you, but at least on the surface they try to be nice) positive, in a backhanded sort of way. You know the sort of thing I mean…“The Mormons are sweet people who help others, but they are trying to buy their way to heaven…” You know, the same sort of thing these same people say about Catholics.

But I have never once seen a book or pamphlet about Mormons written by a non-Mormon that got our beliefs, even our most basic beliefs, RIGHT. Not ‘presented positively,’ just…correct.

So I was going on really extensive past experience, and predicting probable future experience.

So this “What Mormons really believe” book? The title alone should send shudders down you. Then we have the author; a Catholic priest who left the priesthood and converted to Mormonism, then converted back. I don’t care how much he wants to be fair and objective, I submit that he simply cannot be so…and given the title, I’ll bet you anything he doesn’t even attempt it.

Here’s the thing, sir: had this priest offered to write a ‘What Catholics really believe’ book for Mormons upon his conversion to Mormonism, he would have been told 'don’t even think about it…" because he would not have been able to write that without bias, either. It would not have been appropriate or helpful. We do not encourage such things.

 

[kalt]

Uhm, don’t look now, but you are advertising just that sort of book right here on the sidebar of “non-Catholic religions”. I quoted the titles of three of 'em.

But you are quite correct, “Christian” bookstores are FULL of anti-Catholic nonsense, and you would probably find them in their rather extensive ‘cult’ section. Catholics are targets of this sort of…thing…as much or more than anybody else; and frankly, it’s why I am surprised that Catholics indulge in it themselves.

Actually, I make a point of going to the Catholics to learn about Catholicism, so when I want to read a book about it, a Catholic book store is precisely where I WILL go. I will not go there, however, to learn about Judaism, the Jehovah’s Witnesses or the Mormons.

I said what I did as a wager, of sorts. I’ve read this type of book for years…over forty years, as a matter of fact. I’ve read a bunch of 'em, and there is one thing they all have in common.

They get it wrong. Oh, I’ve actually read some that are (deceptively, mind you, but at least on the surface they try to be nice) positive, in a backhanded sort of way. You know the sort of thing I mean…“The Mormons are sweet people who help others, but they are trying to buy their way to heaven…” You know, the same sort of thing these same people say about Catholics.

But I have never once seen a book or pamphlet about Mormons written by a non-Mormon that got our beliefs, even our most basic beliefs, RIGHT. Not ‘presented positively,’ just…correct.

So I was going on really extensive past experience, and predicting probable future experience.

So this “What Mormons really believe” book? The title alone should send shudders down you. Then we have the author; a Catholic priest who left the priesthood and converted to Mormonism, then converted back. I don’t care how much he wants to be fair and objective, I submit that he simply cannot be so…and given the title, I’ll bet you anything he doesn’t even attempt it.

Here’s the thing, sir: had this priest offered to write a ‘What Catholics really believe’ book for Mormons upon his conversion to Mormonism, he would have been told 'don’t even think about it…" because he would not have been able to write that without bias, either. It would not have been appropriate or helpful. We do not encourage such things.

So you’re condemning all because you’ve read others.

I’m not commenting on the books that are advertised because I haven’t read them. I am commenting on your complaint which is invalid.

I clicked on the Muslim book link.

"Catholics have a duty to meet the challenge of Islam. We need to know our own faith well so we can show our Muslim brothers that the Catholic Church, not Islam, is the true fulfillment of Abraham’s prophetic line.

Beginning Apologetics 9: How To Answer Muslims examines Islam’s major beliefs, and shows how to charitably refute them using Christian teaching - the Scriptures, history, and, of course, common sense"

It seems to be a very fundamental glimpse at Islam and a whole lotta Catholic Catechism. This isn’t about bashing Islam. It’s about defending the faith when challenged by Muslims. It gives, I think, answers to common challenges to the faith that are posed by Muslims.

Hardly a sinister book.

 

[Arkguy]

I am amazed and impressed at the Catholics that are educated in and love their faith in Catholic Answers Forums. I do not find many Catholics I come across in daily life that seem to be excited about their faith and able to intelligently defend it. I also don’t know of any religions that have forums like this that allow anyone to come in and question their faith. I have found the vast majority of Catholic answers to be very polite, and to answer questions with charity and alot of research.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5352659:

I first came across this website last November, at which time I was a SOLO Scriptura

Evangelical without a church home and was seriously considering converting either to Holy Orthodoxy or Catholicism. I wasn’t surprised to discover that most Catholics defended their faith but what did surprise me was that some Catholics seemed to understand apologetics not as the branch of theology that deals with the defensive facts and proofs of Christianity but as a tool they could use to attack and insult people who did not believe as they did. Indeed, I can recall one apparently irritated Catholic who seemed angry with me as a result of a question I’d asked in an Original Post in the Non–Catholic Religions forum and who made a point of asking me why I didn’t go to a Protestant forum to ask my question asserting that my question was “stupid.”

My feelings were hurt, of course, but that might have had something to do with my stupidity. Perhaps if I’d been less stupid I’d have been able to perceive that there was in fact no insult. This was but Catholic “vigor,” and this is, after all, a Catholic forum.

Sadly,
Mick
:sad_bye:There is no excuse for rudeness to anyone, on any thread on these forums.

Well, if people come on this site with the sole purpose of attacking Catholicism, which I think some do, one can understand a Catholic getting a bit hot under the collar. But if the rudeness is gratuitous, then that’s a serious sin, isn’t it?

It seems, from the posts I have read, that those who are not Catholic and have come here looking for information about the Catholic Church have been insulted.

Yes, I daresay you’re right. And when Catholics gratuitously insult non–Catholics, it reflects poorly upon the Catholic Church.

Sometimes it is so hard to read the intention of the poster and misunderstandings occur. Most people have difficulty being clear in writing their feelings and also interpreting what was said. Many times we are insulted when that wasn’t the intention of the poster.

That’s true.

So please come back and give us another chance. If you feel insulted tell the poster that is what you feel and ask if that was his intention.

Are you serious? And if the poster – whom you are apparently supposing must be male – declares that no insult was intended (as would presumably happen) and that the word “stupid” was simply a euphemism for “engaging,” I guess my next step would be to apologize myself for demonstrating that I’m not as smart as a fifth grader by daring to conclude that the word “stupid” conveyed an insult? Once upon a time, words conveyed ideas.

Nostalgically,
Mick

 

[elts1956]

Well, if people come on this site with the sole purpose of attacking Catholicism, which I think some do, one can understand a Catholic getting a bit hot under the collar. But if the rudeness is gratuitous, then that’s a serious sin, isn’t it?

Yes, I daresay you’re right. And when Catholics gratuitously insult non–Catholics, it reflects poorly upon the Catholic Church.

That’s true.

Are you serious? And if the poster – whom you are apparently supposing must be male – How about if I used s/his or s/him. declares that no insult was intended (as would presumably happen) and that the word “stupid” was simply a euphemism for “engaging,” I guess my next step would be to apologize myself for demonstrating that I’m not as smart as a fifth grader by daring to conclude that the word “stupid” conveyed an insult? Once upon a time, words conveyed ideas. Now see, I consider that is rude as I am trying to smooth ruffled feelings. :crying: You may consider that you are just speakig frankly while I am feeling dissed.:hypno:

Nostalgically,
Mick

Okay, I forgot about the explicit words stupid, dunce, ignorant etc. Those of course display the heights of rudeness.

What I am saying is sometimes when people post, they can be very abrupt, ask questions, or make statements that appear rude, but were not intended that way. Then say that came across as rude, perhaps my interpretation, but that is how I took it. Give a person the chance to clarify, or apologize. Some people post impatiently;. I know I have.

But then at times people are just downright rude.

 

[SSTeacher]

Okay, I forgot about the explicit words stupid, dunce, ignorant etc. Those of course display the heights of rudeness.

What I am saying is sometimes when people post, they can be very abrupt, ask questions, or make statements that appear rude, but were not intended that way. Then say that came across as rude, perhaps my interpretation, but that is how I took it. Give a person the chance to clarify, or apologize. Some people post impatiently;. I know I have.

But then at times people are just downright rude.

Thanks for your kindness and encouragement.

Appreciatively,
Mick

 

[ZAKI]

In reading another thread, I see that some non-Catholics who post here are annoyed at the vigor with which Catholics defend the faith.

I’m wondering, were you surprised (when you first came here) that Catholics defend the faith? Were you surprised that Catholics aren’t really that open to the evangelical efforts of those outside the CC? Did you expect Catholics to be more willing to compromise on doctrine?

I’m not annoyed. I understand it fully. When I go to a muslim website they are not willing to compromise their beliefs so it is unfair and idiotic for me to believe that catholics will compromise theirs.

wasalam

 

[gcnuss]

I’m wondering, were you surprised (when you first came here) that Catholics defend the faith?

I would have been surprised if they didn’t do their best to explain the Catholic faith.

Were you surprised that Catholics aren’t really that open to the evangelical efforts of those outside the CC?

I am not here to evangelize Catholics. I respect them as fellow Christians and pray that they, like my fellow Lutherans and all other Christians, remain faithful to our Lord and Savior. I do not have any intention of leading Catholics into Lutheranism – although if the Holy Spirit were to move you in this direction I’ll be here to welcome you just as I anticipate you would welcome me if the Holy Spirit surprises me.

Did you expect Catholics to be more willing to compromise on doctrine?

Not at all. My hope is that through dialogue we might understand one another better and be able to focus on the things that we have in common. I do believe that our respective communions are working hard to find the path toward unity. How that will be achieved I do not know, but I continue to pray that it will happen.