Non-Catholics, a question

[kalt]

Because your question simply doesn’t make sense. Why should people here be surprised that Catholics defend their faith with vigor? That is an absurd question. I should have thought that people of any faith, that take their religion seriously, would want to defend it with vigor, Catholics included. Your question implies that people of other faiths don’t; or that Catholics are an exception to the rule. Why should you think that?

Okay, if you don’t like that line of questioning, allow me to choose a different line. Are you surprised that Mormons here defend their faith with vigor?

The question implies no such thing. It’s something that you have made up in your own mind, since it cerainly isn’t found in the question I asked.

I asked because non-Catholics come here and ask a question or make a statement, and then seem stunned that Catholics take the challenge seriously. They seem to think that Catholics will roll over and play dead, or else think that Catholics don’t know the faith well enough to answer their challenges. They seem genuinely surprised to see such resistance to their attempts to convince us of such things as OSAS, Mary’s having several children, the rapture, etc.

Am I surprised that Mormons defend their faith with vigor? Not at all. Why do you ask?

 

[kalt]

Maybe the question comes from the Should the Non-Catholic Religion board be done away with thread.

It came directly from one recent thread, but also from the many many non-Catholic posters’ reactions to Catholics’ defending the faith in other threads.

 

[kalt]

Not exactly, no. The official teaching is “heirs and joint heirs with Christ.” We believe that we are children of God, quite literally.

The speculation that goes with these two things can run wild, and does. As I step through the logical progression personally, it seems obvious to me that whatever it is the above means, it does NOT mean demi-godhood over individual planets, especially since the church does not teach that. So if it doesn’t mean that, what does it mean?

God created the universe, not a single planet. Therefore, again to me, something like universes would be involved; this one or another one. The point I"m attempting to make, though, is this: as fond of speculation as we all are (and Mormons are REALLY good at speculating) what we know is those two statements: we are to be heirs and joint-heirs with Christ, and we are the literal spiritual children of God.

I’m not certain that we are even capable of understanding what that means, any more than a typical two year old is capable of understanding the equations of John Nash.

When you say “something like universes will be involved”, what do you mean by that? Involved in what way?

I ask, because this is what you had to say earlier about the “godhood” paragraph in the book you don’t like.

"I was pleasantly surprised at the language he used; it is very academic, far more accurate than some of his fellow “Mormon exposers” and not nearly as polemic as I expected it to be. His education shows. However…here is a quote from page 352 of the book: “Though a chief tenet of Mormon belief, members do not often discuss eternal progression. Perhaps this is because much of the teaching is new and, understandably, offensive to Christians. Perhaps, too, it’s because the theme is a central concern of the temple ceremony, which must be kept hidden from the unworthy. Or perhaps it’s because discussing one’s ambitions to godhood is not a fit topic for polite conversation…”

While his musings about why ‘members do not often discuss eternal progression’ beg all sorts of questions and are thus not exactly helpful, the whole thing is based on an inaccuracy; that is, that ‘members do not often discuss eternal progression.’ Eternal progression is a basic doctrine. It may be dogma (though I’m not quite certain of the difference between the two to Catholic understanding; forgive me if I have it wrong.) As such it is taught at the first and basic levels–if it isn’t the first missionary lesson, it’s certainly second. The whole idea weaves around our beliefs like the weft of a tapestry. "

You said that it’s inaccurate to say that Mormons don’t talk about it, but didn’t say anything about what would seemingly be a more glaring and serious inaccuracy, the godhood comment.

 

[rev_kevin]

In reading another thread, I see that some non-Catholics who post here are annoyed at the vigor with which Catholics defend the faith.

I’m wondering, were you surprised (when you first came here) that Catholics defend the faith? Were you surprised that Catholics aren’t really that open to the evangelical efforts of those outside the CC? Did you expect Catholics to be more willing to compromise on doctrine?

Not suprised, but rather annoyed by the way some of them will belittle you, laugh at you, call you names just because you don’t see things their way or believe in what they believe. I think they should have a open mind to all religions. Belittling, laughting, name calling at someone of a different religion does not help with the respect of the Catholic religion or the faith. Inorder to gain respect you must give respect. I have found ior 2 prople that have shown respect for the beliefs of other religions. It fine to have vigor but in the right way. If your being attacked by someone because of your belief you are going to attack back and that does nobody any good. Not so much compromise but accept and realize that they are not the only religion out there.

 

[zerinus]

Maybe the question comes from the Should the Non-Catholic Religion board be done away with thread.

If that is your real problem, then perhaps you should take it up with the board administration, rather than with the people who post here.

 

[kalt]

Not suprised, but rather annoyed by the way some of them will belittle you, laugh at you, call you names just because you don’t see things their way or believe in what they believe. I think they should have a open mind to all religions. Belittling, laughting, name calling at someone of a different religion does not help with the respect of the Catholic religion or the faith. Inorder to gain respect you must give respect. I have found ior 2 prople that have shown respect for the beliefs of other religions. It fine to have vigor but in the right way. If your being attacked by someone because of your belief you are going to attack back and that does nobody any good. Not so much compromise but accept and realize that they are not the only religion out there.

I agree. Though there are many non-Catholics who come here insisting that Catholics worship Mary, pray to statues, believe that everyone but Catholics goes to Hell, and other such nonsense. When they’re faced with facts that refute their claims, they seem honestly shocked. Maybe the shock comes from their ignorance of what Catholicism really is rather than surprise that Catholics defend the faith. If you’ve never considered that Catholics don’t worship Mary, seeing the proof that they don’t in black and white (the CCC and other documents) might be a little surprising.

But I agree that we (a universal we) can come across too strongly to someone new to the forum. Part of that, I think, is that we’ve seen the same misconceptions about Catholicism so many times. Sooner or later the truth about Catholicism, you would think, would circulate in non-Catholic circles. But it seems that non-Catholics read the truth here and then keep it to themselves. When someone says that Catholics pray to statues, do they not say, “But they don’t!”? I think if I were in a non-Jewish circle and someone said that Jews drink the blood of gentile babies, I would correct him.

Maybe not. Maybe I wouldn’t feel the need to educate someone who is so obviously ignorant/prejudiced. So maybe that’s why the truth doesn’t circulate in non-Catholic circles. Who wants to deal with people who are ignorant/prejudiced and happy to stay that way?

 

[rev_kevin]

I agree. Though there are many non-Catholics who come here insisting that Catholics worship Mary, pray to statues, believe that everyone but Catholics goes to Hell, and other such nonsense. When they’re faced with facts that refute their claims, they seem honestly shocked. Maybe the shock comes from their ignorance of what Catholicism really is rather than surprise that Catholics defend the faith. If you’ve never considered that Catholics don’t worship Mary, seeing the proof that they don’t in black and white (the CCC and other documents) might be a little surprising.

But I agree that we (a universal we) can come across too strongly to someone new to the forum. Part of that, I think, is that we’ve seen the same misconceptions about Catholicism so many times. Sooner or later the truth about Catholicism, you would think, would circulate in non-Catholic circles. But it seems that non-Catholics read the truth here and then keep it to themselves. When someone says that Catholics pray to statues, do they not say, “But they don’t!”? I think if I were in a non-Jewish circle and someone said that Jews drink the blood of gentile babies, I would correct him.

Maybe not. Maybe I wouldn’t feel the need to educate someone who is so obviously ignorant/prejudiced. So maybe that’s why the truth doesn’t circulate in non-Catholic circles. Who wants to deal with people who are ignorant/prejudiced and happy to stay that way?

I am a former Catholic, was a alter boy, went to Catholic school, went 1 year in a siminary to become a priest. So its not like I don’t know what I’m talking about. I understand that they are strong in their beliefs just like the non-Catholics are strong in there faith but you can push people too much and drive them away from even attempting to understand the faith. I have no problem with who you pray to, if you have statues, pray the rosery, say the Hail Mary, confess your sins to a priest,etc… but to say that this is the only true religion is beyond me. There are other religions that may not believe in the same things ya’ll believe in but they all have one thing in common and that is we believe in God the same God and isn’t that what really counts. We may worship God in different ways but we worship him just the same. What difference does it matter how just as long as you do.

 

[Mickey]

When someone says that Catholics pray to statues, do they not say, “But they don’t!”?

It goes further than that. There are those from non-Apostolic sects who come here and deny the sacraments. They do not believe in the Real Presence. They belittle infant baptism. And they outright deny the other sacraments. These are heretical ideas and I for one, will not condone such comments. The truth must be told. If someone is offended by the truth–so be it. I will not compromise the truth.

 

[PJM]

=rev kevin;5490997]>Not suprised, but rather annoyed by the way some of them will belittle you, laugh at you, call you names just because you don’t see things their way or believe in what they believe. I think they should have a open mind to all religions. Belittling, laughting, name calling at someone of a different religion does not help with the respect of the Catholic religion or the faith. Inorder to gain respect you must give respect. I have found ior 2 prople that have shown respect for the beliefs of other religions. It fine to have vigor but in the right way. If your being attacked by someone because of your belief you are going to attack back and that does nobody any good. Not so much compromise but accept and realize that they are not the only religion out there.

The apparant obstinance of Catholics is not their own fault, if they are teaching WITH and WHAT thee Chruch teaches. Indeed that is our Mandate from Chrsit Himself. While this is difficult for many non-catholic christians to comprehend, because of the latitues they have come to expect from their church; self interpation of the bible, optional beliefs on nearly every matter regarding both Faith and Morals, it is difficult for such a person to admit[all though not to do so comes very close to intellectual dishonesty] that on EVERY issue their can and in ONLY ONE TRUTH.

***Pope Benedict in his very first homily at his first Mass as Pope said " their cannot be your truth and my truth or their would be no truth." John Paul II expressed a similar message./***I]

What the Church teaches on all matters of Faith and or Morals is by God’s own promise; THEE singular truth on that issue, PERIOD!

Jn.14: 15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

John 16: “12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. “

I certainly agree with the absolute need for Charity in sharing thee Faith of Christ! But we cannot not pick and choose EXCEPT to be Obedient or disobedient So please understand that this is why we speak with authority; we minic, we echo the very words of Christ. We can do nothing else.

Love and prayers,

 

[kalt]

I am a former Catholic, was a alter boy, went to Catholic school, went 1 year in a siminary to become a priest. So its not like I don’t know what I’m talking about. I understand that they are strong in their beliefs just like the non-Catholics are strong in there faith but you can push people too much and drive them away from even attempting to understand the faith. I have no problem with who you pray to, if you have statues, pray the rosery, say the Hail Mary, confess your sins to a priest,etc… but to say that this is the only true religion is beyond me. There are other religions that may not believe in the same things ya’ll believe in but they all have one thing in common and that is we believe in God the same God and isn’t that what really counts. We may worship God in different ways but we worship him just the same. What difference does it matter how just as long as you do.

How someone else worships doesn’t matter to me, but it should matter to them. Truth matters.

But that wasn’t the point. No one was claiming that Non-Catholic Christians worship a different god.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

I’m wondering, were you surprised (when you first came here) that Catholics defend the faith?

I would expecct nothing less.

Were you surprised that Catholics aren’t really that open to the evangelical efforts of those outside the CC?

No, but trying to evangalise to catholics is against the forum rules I think. Debate, discussion and dialogue are not.

Did you expect Catholics to be more willing to compromise on doctrine?

Absolutely not. The noncatholic forum is not a place for non catholics to convince catholics the doctrines they adhere to are wrong.

What is off putting are people who claim to be catholics vigorously defending something they say which is shown time and again to be wrong. Some catholics seem to think that being a catholic makes you infallible.

There is definately a lack of charity by some, both catholic and non catholic, and I include myself.

But I find this place very interesting, and will be around for a bit until I’m banned

 

[rev_kevin]

How someone else worships doesn’t matter to me, but it should matter to them. Truth matters.

But your truth may not be there truth. See each religion believe they speak the truth so who’s to say. You say yours is the truth, I say mine is the truth, others say there’s is the truth. See what I’m saying here.

Neither was I saying that Non-Catholic worship another god. But I have been to different sights here and that is how it seems. If you say something they won’t accept your view. The true religion is Catholic religion and the only religion. Thats how they make you feel like you are worshiping another god. That is why I say the same God because some make it seem like it is a different god.

 

[rev_kevin]

The apparant obstinance of Catholics is not their own fault, if they are teaching WITH and WHAT thee Chruch teaches. Indeed that is our Mandate from Chrsit Himself. While this is difficult for many non-catholic christians to comprehend, because of the latitues they have come to expect from their church; self interpation of the bible, optional beliefs on nearly every matter regarding both Faith and Morals, it is difficult for such a person to admit[all though not to do so comes very close to intellectual dishonesty] that on EVERY issue their can and in ONLY ONE TRUTH.

***Pope Benedict in his very first homily at his first Mass as Pope said " their cannot be your truth and my truth or their would be no truth." John Paul II expressed a similar message./***I]

What the Church teaches on all matters of Faith and or Morals is by God’s own promise; THEE singular truth on that issue, PERIOD!

Jn.14: 15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

John 16: “12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. “

I certainly agree with the absolute need for Charity in sharing thee Faith of Christ! But we cannot not pick and choose EXCEPT to be Obedient or disobedient So please understand that this is why we speak with authority; we minic, we echo the very words of Christ. We can do nothing else.

Love and prayers,

ok I believe the 2 bible verses you quoted me that is not a question but who is to say who’s religion is the true religion. Ok I hear you say alot about the truth but who’s truth.
I hear what the church teaches but different churches teach different things, so who’s to say which is the truth. The only truth is God’s truth and most religions believe in God’s truth. Is that the truth your talking about or another truth. Is it the Catholic truth. If so were does it say in the bible the catholic truth is the only truth. See the bible it the true word of God so is that the truth your talking about. It can not be your turth or my truth or there would be no truth. If not your truth or my truth then who’s truth. Seems to me the Pope don’t even know. With and what thee church teaches, who’s church you never say. So who inspired the bible. I believe God inspired the bible. On that very issue there can and in only one truth, who’s truth. We echo ,mimic the very word of Christ also, so who’s truth. Faith and moral value by God is taught in my church as well so who’s church. So who interpreted the bible for the Catholic faith. Who said that this is the way it should be.

 

[freedomwriter]

It goes further than that. There are those from non-Apostolic sects who come here and deny the sacraments. They do not believe in the Real Presence. They belittle infant baptism. And they outright deny the other sacraments. These are heretical ideas and I for one, will not condone such comments. The truth must be told. If someone is offended by the truth–so be it. I will not compromise the truth.

As a protestant I do not belittle infant baptism because its not biblical. I am like you i want to help others know the truth, not by tradition our councils but by the Word of God.

 

[kalt]

I would expecct nothing less.

No, but trying to evangalise to catholics is against the forum rules I think. Debate, discussion and dialogue are not.

Absolutely not. The noncatholic forum is not a place for non catholics to convince catholics the doctrines they adhere to are wrong.

What is off putting are people who claim to be catholics vigorously defending something they say which is shown time and again to be wrong. Some catholics seem to think that being a catholic makes you infallible.

There is definately a lack of charity by some, both catholic and non catholic, and I include myself.

But I find this place very interesting, and will be around for a bit until I’m banned

Can you give a few examples of the things Catholics have defended that are wrong?

 

[kalt]

Neither was I saying that Non-Catholic worship another god. But I have been to different sights here and that is how it seems. If you say something they won’t accept your view. The true religion is Catholic religion and the only religion. Thats how they make you feel like you are worshiping another god. That is why I say the same God because some make it seem like it is a different god.

This is exactly what I was asking about. It seems that you’re entirely surprised that Catholics won’t accept your view–that Catholics believe in their faith so strongly that nothing you say will change it one iota.

It might be common for non-Catholic Christians to accept opposing views as equally valid and true, but Catholics understand that there can only be one truth. Opposing views can’t both be true. This is why Catholics “won’t accept your view”, either to change their own belief or to say that your view is also true.

Christian churches share so much, but where they differ Catholics won’t say that an opposing view is true. It’s like we both have the same math system, but when it comes to adding 5 and 3, you insist that the sum is 9. A Catholic, knowing that the equation can have only one true answer, won’t “accept your view”.

Does this surprise you about Catholics and Catholicism.

 

[kalt]

As a protestant I do not belittle infant baptism because its not biblical. I am like you i want to help others know the truth, not by tradition our councils but by the Word of God.

How do you define “the Word of God”?

This is going off-topic, but this is from the CCC.

95 "It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls."62
IN BRIEF
96 What Christ entrusted to the apostles, they in turn handed on by their preaching and writing, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to all generations, until Christ returns in glory.
97 “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God” (DV 10) in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches.
98 “The Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes” (DV 8 § 1).
99 Thanks to its supernatural sense of faith, the People of God as a whole never ceases to welcome, to penetrate more deeply and to live more fully from the gift of divine Revelation. 100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.

 

[Mickey]

As a protestant I do not belittle infant baptism because its not biblical.

You should not belittle it because it IS Biblical.

I am like you i want to help others know the truth, not by tradition our councils but by the Word of God.

The truth is transmitted to us by the Word of God, Sacred Tradition and Holy Councils.

 

[kalt]

The truth is transmitted to us by the Word of God, Sacred Tradition and Holy Councils.

From the CCC - “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God”

Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture together are the Word of God.

Protestants believe that the Word of God refers to the Bible only. Catholics know that it (scripture) and sacred Tradtion make up the Word of God.

They often don’t understand the difference between sacred Tradition and tradition or disciplines.

 

[DLClark]

In reading another thread, I see that some non-Catholics who post here are annoyed at the vigor with which Catholics defend the faith.

I’m wondering, were you surprised (when you first came here) that Catholics defend the faith? Were you surprised that Catholics aren’t really that open to the evangelical efforts of those outside the CC? Did you expect Catholics to be more willing to compromise on doctrine?

No in the least. We are tell other about the truth of God’s Word. If Catholics do not accept the truth it is not because the truth is wrong but because they are believing a lie. Acts 16:31 is either true or the Bible is in error and we are all damned. If we do what this verse, and the many others that support it says to do, we will be saved by faith alone in Christ… Will you by faith accept Christ as your personal Savior?