K
kalt
Guest
The Bible isn’t wrong, but one of us is.
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M
Mickey
Guest
Yes. I was always taught that Sacred Tradition interprets Sacred Scripture.
M
Mickey
Guest
Can you show me the verse which states that we are saved by “faith alone”?
J
Janet1983
Guest
Sure… If we see that the scriptures exclude works in any form as a means of our salvation, then logically, we are saved by faith alone…
- Rom. 3:28-30,“28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.”
- Rom. 4:5,“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
- Rom. 5:1,*“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:”
- Rom. 9:30,*“What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.”
- Rom. 10:4,*“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”
- Rom. 11:6,*“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
- Gal. 2:16,*“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
- Gal. 2:21,*“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”
- Gal.3:5-6,*“5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
- Gal. 3:24,*“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.”
- Eph. 2:8-9,*“8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
- Phil. 3:9,*“And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”
Here is what is always put as the one verse that requires us to have works…
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
James 2:24 however is not contradicting the justification by faith alone this if we actually bother to look at the context…
James chapter 2 has 26 verses:
Verses 1-7 instruct us to not show favoritism.
Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law.
Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.
James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?” (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn’t any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.
In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, “faith without works is dead” (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.
Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith. James 2:23 says, “and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness” If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example. Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone.
M
Mickey
Guest
Not one of the verses you provided states that we are saved by faith alone. The only verse I can see that has the words faith alone (or faith only) is this:
James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
M
Mickey
Guest
Scripture does not contradict itself. St Paul is talking about works of the Mosaic law.
St James tells us that we are saved by faith–and our works are the fruit of that faith.
"When Scripture says, ‘He will reward every man according to his works’ (Matt. 16:27), do not imagine that works in themselves merit either hell or the Kingdom. On the contrary, Christ rewards each man according to whether his works are done with faith or without faith in Himself; and He is not a dealer bound by contract, but God our Creator and Redeemer.** St. Mark the Ascetic.**
We are saved by grace.
As then it is His[God’s] part to plant and to water, so it is yours to bear fruit: it is God’s to grant grace, but yours to receive and guard it. Despise not the grace because it is freely given, but receive and treasure it devoutly.
St Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 1)
J
Janet1983
Guest
If you try and comment on my post, read it… I wrote about that towards the end…
Thank you.
J
Janet1983
Guest
I agree. That is why we are saved by faith alone, but towards men this faith is visible in works. They are the physical evidence and the fruit of our faith. They are however not the grounds of our salvation.
P
PJM
Guest
***Dear Rev. Ken.
If you actually believe that it does not matter what church one belongs to so long as they worship Christ, you simply do not understand what Jesus did, said and desired.
Mt. 15:18-19; and Mt. 18:18 are not at all ambigious. Quite the opposie, they are painfully clear and concise.
God entended for ONLY One Church which is precisely why He founded only one Church. Why He inspired ONLY One Bible, and why he set up the system of Governance that He did.
One can see the Wisdom of the Divine Plan as after 2,000 years there is still One Church, One God [Triune] One Faih, One Baptism [ordinary form] One set of Dogma’s and Doctrines and 22 branches.
Protestants by rejecting thee TRUTH and encouraging independet and free bible translation now have in excess of 30,000 denominations believing and practicing as tehy will.
Mt. 7: 21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22* On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.”***
***And no, I am not saying that one has to be a Catholic to be saved. We both know that is not true. But only Catholics have Jesus Christ in Holy Communion, only Catholics have the Sacrament of Known Forgiveness [please review Jn.20:21-23 and 1 Jn. 5:16-20]
as well as the other sacraments and the multitude of graces they offer and provide.
And you left all this for subjective preference over Objective reality. How very sad
***Love and prayers Brother
R
rev_kevin
Guest
No not suprised that they won’t accept my view, I could care less. But If ya’ll are so strong that nothing will change it one iota, why won’t ya’ll accept the same of other religions.
I agree that opposing views can’t both be true, but what makes yours the truth and not others. Ya know that is all I get is the truth. Whos truth God’s truth or the catholic church truth? Remember ya’ll asked the question so if ya’ll don’t like the answers ya’ll get from another religion why ask the question in the first place. Ya’ll asked we answered. I have not had one iota of proof that ya’lls religion is the true religion. ya point to the dogma or the truth but ya’ll can’t point it out in the bible where it say that the “Catholic religion” is the true religion. I have never seen the word Catholic in the bible I have seen Christian or Christianity which is what I am Christian, but not Catholic why? If it is the true religion it should be there but its not why? I have others point to Israel but still not proof. Who says Catholic is the true religion. I never read in the bible were Jesus, God or anyone eles says that the Catholic religion is the true religion. I know priests that accept other points of views and they are your leaders and yet a layman won’t, go figure, they will but ya’ll won’t well who is right there ya’ll or the priest? I have talked to not just one priest but around 30 to 50 from all over the U.S. and they all accept other points of views.
R
rev_kevin
Guest
We have Jesus Christ in our communtion but we call it the Lords supper, we know forgiveness and that comes from God not a priest only God can forgive sin. Who’s one church your, who says. Who’s reality are you talking about yours or God’s reality. Nobody can prove to me that yours is the one and only. All I get is the word “truth” with no explination just the “truth.” When I say I believe what the bible says ya’ll say that is not enough but always point to scritpure in the bible seens good enough for ya’ll but not us why>***Dear Rev. Ken.
If you actually believe that it does not matter what church one belongs to so long as they worship Christ, you simply do not understand what Jesus did, said and desired.
Mt. 15:18-19; and Mt. 18:18 are not at all ambigious. Quite the opposie, they are painfully clear and concise.
God entended for ONLY One Church which is precisely why He founded only one Church. Why He inspired ONLY One Bible, and why he set up the system of Governance that He did.
One can see the Wisdom of the Divine Plan as after 2,000 years there is still One Church, One God [Triune] One Faih, One Baptism [ordinary form] One set of Dogma’s and Doctrines and 22 branches.
Protestants by rejecting thee TRUTH and encouraging independet and free bible translation now have in excess of 30,000 denominations believing and practicing as tehy will.
Mt. 7: 21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22* On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.”***
***And no, I am not saying that one has to be a Catholic to be saved. We both know that is not true. But only Catholics have Jesus Christ in Holy Communion, only Catholics have the Sacrament of Known Forgiveness [please review Jn.20:21-23 and 1 Jn. 5:16-20]
as well as the other sacraments and the multitude of graces they offer and provide.
And you left all this for subjective preference over Objective reality. How very sad
Love and prayers Brother
K
kalt
Guest
And are the Calvinist, Lutheran, Anglican, Baptist, or Methodist churches listed as true churches in the Bible?
If your argument is that the CC can’t be the true church because it isn’t named in the Bible, then no Christian church today is a true church–and certainly not the one, true church of Christ.
There are churches named in the Bible, though, and they were in communion with Peter, the first pope, head of the church on earth, appointed by Christ. The CC is a continuation of this church, especially with apostolic succession. You are looking for the word “Catholic” in the bible instead of looking for the Church.
Accepting that you have a different point of view and accepting that view as truth are two different things. I accept that someone might believe that we are saved by faith alone, but I don’t accept that that view represents the truth.
Catholics don’t believe that there is no truth in other Christian faiths and religions. We believe and acknowledge the truth wherever it is found. But we believe that the “fullness of truth” is found in the CC.
Unlike some Protestant churches, which seem to teach that other religions like Islam and the Eastern faiths are completely false, Catholics believe that other religions can have much truth in them.
Your argument is false, because you are claiming that Catholics believe something that they don’t - that only the CC teaches truth and that we don’t accept that you hold a different view.
But you already know that we accept that you have a different view. That’s not the problem. Once you’ve stated your view, it’s obvious that we know what your view is, and what else is there to do but accept that you have an opposing view? What logica; person would deny that you have an opposing view. What you really want is for us to accept that that opposing view is as valid as the truth.
K
kalt
Guest
When someone comes here and opposes a CC teaching by quoting scripture, It’s not that supporting a view with scripture is good for us but not for you, it’s that the scripture that’s quoted doesn’t say what you (non-Catholic Christians) believe it does.
And while you are here claiming that we have to accept your view as truth, do you accept that what the CC teaches is the truth? We’re supposed to accept, as a truth, that you have assurance of forgiveness for serious sins by confessing directly to God. Do you accept, as equally true, that you must confess mortal sins in the sacramental Confession?
On truth. There can only be one truth. If it’s red, saying that it’s blue is incorrect. We have opposing views on forgiveness of sins. Can both views be true?
This is all that is meant, here, by “truth”. There is no secret meaning.
H
Holly3278
Guest
Good questions. I know when I started RCIA, I was amazed at how easily the Faith can be defended.
I am now an amateur apologist. But then again, we all should be apologists whether amateur, experienced, or professional.
M
Mickey
Guest
M
Mickey
Guest
It says that nowhere in Scripture. We are saved by grace through faith and our good works are the fruit of that faith.
M
Mickey
Guest
2000 years—beginning with Jesus Christ—to the apostles—to the bishops and priests.
J
Janet1983
Guest
Read. (including the end)
If is scriptural and obvious… Try reading it… My mom told me that reading educates…
M
Mickey
Guest
You said: “Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone…”
Since we know that we are not saved by “faith alone”----and it does not say that anywhere in Scripture—you have a dilemma.
Tell your mom that reading is very good. But sometimes, without the proper interpretation, one cannot discern the meaning of what is being read.
J
Janet1983
Guest
We are justified and thereby treated as if we were righteous… Cool, huh? We are saved by faith alone…
Merriam Webster
Main Entry: jus·ti·fy
Pronunciation: \ˈjəs-tə-ˌfī\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): jus·ti·fied; jus·ti·fy·ing
Etymology: Middle English justifien, from Anglo-French or Late Latin; Anglo-French justifier, from Late Latin justificare, from Latin justus
Date: 14th century
transitive verb
1 a: to prove or show to be just, right, or reasonable
b (1): to show to have had a sufficient legal reason (2): to qualify (oneself) as a surety by taking oath to the ownership of sufficient property
2 a archaic: to administer justice to
b archaic: absolve c: to judge, regard, or treat as righteous and worthy of salvation
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