Non-Catholics, a question

[Mickey]

Let me do it for you too…
Read this. (including the end)… That helps a lot… I did write about this passage in James too…

You can continue to paste this infinitely, but it does justify the term “faith alone”. Faith and works cannot be separated–but I think you already know this.

 

[Tomster]

Let me do it for you too…
Read this. (including the end)… That helps a lot… I did write about this passage in James too…

What you fail to understand, Janet, is that once a person is justified that person is not to become supernaturally inactive. For either he will produce supernaturally good works or he will in time cease to be just. But because concupiscence remains in the just, some have imagined that the just man cannot but help to sin especially when he acts from a motive of the reward of heaven; hence they cling to a blind trust in God and deny the need for good works. But no doctrine is more opposed to common sense and the word of God. In His preview of the last judgment Christ says the just are saved for having done the works of charity and the damned are lost for having neglected them. Good works, then, are necessary that we may increase in justice and persevere to the end.

When faith works along with their works, the justified increase in the very justice which they have received through the grace of Christ and are justified the more, as it is written: ‘He who is just, let him be just still.’ The daily aim of the Christian is to do the truth in charity and thus grow up in Him who is the Head, Christ. If then, as children of God, we act toward Him with love, we win an increase of His love and become more like Him. In order to do these works of love the just man needs actual graces. For the performance of all salutary acts the just require, besides sanctifying grace, also particular actual graces. Christ Jesus Himself pours His strength into the justified incessantly, a strength which precedes, accompanies and follows their good works and without it the good works cannot be pleasing to God or meritorious.

 

[Tomster]

Let me do it for you too…
Read this. (including the end)… That helps a lot… I did write about this passage in James too…

What you might want to reflect on is the fact that it was your spiritual forefather, Martin Luther, who laid the foundation for the separation of religion and morality. For by stating that fiduciary faith alone suffices for obtaining both justification and eternal happiness, he minimized our moral faculties to such an extent that charity and good works no longer affect our relations with God. By this doctrine Luther opened a fundamental breach between religion and morality, between faith and law, and assigned to each its own distinct sphere of action, in which each can attain its end independent of the other.

 

[kalt]

first of all i never said you had to accept my view as the truth i dont lnow were you are getting that. the cc teaching to you is the truth and that is fine with me never said anything different. i have accepted the confession but show me were it says in th e bibleto tell a priest your sins it dont say that does it or that you have to tell anyone your sins does it Acts 10:43 he is the one all the prophets testified about saying that everyone who believes in him will their sins forgiven through his name
Mark 2:7 Who but god can forgive sin
Matthew 9: I will prove that I the son of Man have the authority on earth to forgive sin

ok whos truth all i here is the truth no one can say or tell or show me about the truth all i get is the truth
Truth-genuine, honest, sincere, actual, reliable, able to be trusted. Actual fact rather than pretense, appearance, or claim. God is th one source of truth, and Jesus is called the truth John 14:6

You keep saying that we don’t “accept” your view. Of course we don’t. We know that you have a different view, but we don’t accept that view.

We’ll leave the Confession debate for another thread, since this thread is really about non-Catholics’ distress over catholics’ vigorous defense of the faith on a Catholics site. . If you want to ask the Confession question in a new thread, I’m sure there will be plenty of lively discussion.

 

[kalt]

Hi Kalt,
I’m a former Catholic. I went to Catholic School and Catechism. My whole family is very, very devoutly Catholic…except me. I began to question the Catholic faith when I started reading the scriptures myself, instead of just hearing them at mass. Forgive me for saying so, but I have come to view being born Catholic kind of like being born Jewish. It is almost more of an ethnicity than a religion. I read that Christ clearly tells us to pray only to the Father. I read that Jesus Christ is "the Way, the Truth and the Light. Nowhere does it say that Mary is our intercessor or that saints can hear or respond to our prayers. If we are to take the word of men over the word of God, then we can easily become confused. I have had as many different answers to my questions as there were priests answering them. The scriptures do not waver…men do. I applaud your faithfulness and your firm defense of your faith. However, having been a Catholic for many years (married in the CC and children baptized in the CC) I also know that many Catholics do not question. They are indoctrinated, if you will. I now consider myself a nondenominational christian and have never had stronger faith in my life than I do now. I ask only that you read the scriptures with an open mind and compare what you read to what you have been taught. It took me years, but my understanding of God has never been more clear than it is now.

I know that many people who disagree with intercessory prayer say that we’re supposed to pray only to the father, but then they say things like, “Thank-you, Jesus.” and “Jesus, help me…”

Why is that? Do they really mean to say, “Pray only to God”?

Thank-you for the recommendation, but you won’t be pleased to learn that I became a more faithful Catholic when I started to study the Bible and the Catechism as an adult. The answers to your concern about intercessory prayer is in the Bible.

The Word of God is Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. There is no reason to reject Sacred Tradition. As a former Catholic, you already know that.

 

[kalt]

Because there can only be one TRUTH on any specific issue, and Jesus mandated that on all matters of FAITH and Morals, that thee single truth would reside in the ONLY Church that He founded.

Mt. 16: 18 “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Please note the extensive use of “singular terms” I, rock, you, Peter, My, Church are all singular and very specific and clear.

Actually BOTH, because God’s truth is the TRUTH of HIS Catholic Church.

Sure we can, and have in Mt. 16 above. Why? Because from the time of Christ death and resurrection until about the- mid 1,600’s THEE ONLY Christian Church in existence was thee one we know today as the CC.

The term “Catholic” which means “Universal” did not apply for nearly 200 years while thee Church was in fact becoming universal. We were first called Catholic around the year 150 AD. By the year 325AD, thanks to the Emperor Constantine, who had conquered the entire known world, and through the influence of his mother who was a devout Christian / Catholic and converted her son; he forced the “entire world” to practice Catholicism.

Rev. Kevin; again look at Mt. 16 above. That is you’re God speaking! “I [God] you [Peter] My Church, bind and loose [power of Governance] keys to the kingdom” all specifically from Christ to St. Peter and extremely clear and concise mandates!

Sorry Kevin, unless you’re talking to FORMER catholic fallen away priest, I find this extremely hard to believe. I too know priest who claim to be catholic, but are NOT! Catholicism has requirements that many are unwilling to pay the price of admission and the continuing Do’s!

Mt. 16: “24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life?”

And isn’t it interesting that that this message follows only a few verses after Christ Himself founds His ONLY Christian Church?

Love and prayers Kev

It’s not true that truth “resides” only in the CC.

 

[kalt]

In all honesty, I was doing a Yahoo Search on something and this site -CAF- was one of the first few hits on the first page.

I saw it and decided to join.

But I’ll be quite frank - I’ve never bickered or debated with the Catholics on here, not once.

I generally engage in the islam/muslim threads and try not to venture out.

Coming from a mixed family of Orthodox Christians and Catholics, I read all of the posts/threads between Orthodox and Catholic and Catholic to Orthodox.

When I do read them… this is the face I have on my screen…

I’m filled with sadness and I do not understand why we cannot all be one!

Can you image if all Christians became just “one”!!!

This stuff going back and forth from one Christian to another reminds me on a daily basis of how the islamic muslims - shia, sunni, ahmadi (et al) - go at it calling themselves out.

I wonder if God is proud of us with this chaos or if He is laughing at us.

Perhaps I’m ignorant, but I will say based on my “ignorance” that I don’t see Jews doing this between themselves - AGAIN - I just might be ignorant or I haven’t hit all of the Jewish forums on the net.

Peace to all ~

You have a rosey view of Judaism.

I know Orthodox Jews who barely speak to their Reform relatives. In this case the Orthodox are also strong Zionists who think that Jews should either more to Israel to promote its growth or they should send money to support the expansion.

On Catholicism and the one, big, happy Christian family-

Protestants continual divisions is proof that this lack of family values isn’t coming from the Catholic side. Protestants who don’t get along, move on. There is no working it out. There’s no compromise. There’s no deferring to superior knowledge. If they don’t like the church they’re in, they move or build a new one. While it’s popular habit to blame Catholics and the CC for the lack of fellowship among all Christians, to blame the CC for being too stubborn is to ignore what actually happens in the non-Catholic Christian world–division over difference.

 

[Contarini]

In reading another thread, I see that some non-Catholics who post here are annoyed at the vigor with which Catholics defend the faith.

I’m wondering, were you surprised (when you first came here) that Catholics defend the faith? Were you surprised that Catholics aren’t really that open to the evangelical efforts of those outside the CC? Did you expect Catholics to be more willing to compromise on doctrine?

I’ve been here too long to be surprised. And I don’t think I was ever “surprised.” Nor is it “vigor” that I object to (your use of that word was misleading–if you want to understand what non-Catholics on this forum object to, then take the trouble to understand how we see things instead of using your own words that cast your fellow-Catholics in a positive light). Rather, I am disappointed (though not exactly surprised, given human nature and the nature of American popular religion in particular) that people with a rich intellectual and mystical tradition stoop to shallow, unfair arguments and repeatedly try to beat fundamentalist Protestants at their own game (and even more annoyingly, then use these tactics against non-fundamentalist Protestants who do not employ them themselves).

You guys can do a lot better. You’re selling your own glorious tradition short. Have all the vigor you want. But have vigor with rigor. Intellectual rigor that is. Care a little bit about truth (historical fact, linguistic nuance, etc.) and not just about Truth (your confidence that your Church has the Grand Story about the way things are).

Edwin

 

[Mickey]

You can continue to paste this infinitely, but it does justify the term “faith alone”. Faith and works cannot be separated–but I think you already know this.

Oops. I meant, “does not justify”.

 

[freedomwriter]

Yes… as I said, I can agree to that… The works are the fruits, but we are first saved and then we bring good fruit… without salvation there are no good fruits and good fruits do not bring forth salvation, because they are not good (a bad tree can only bring forth bad fruit)

Amen to that Janet. I usually go to Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that WHOEVER BELIEVES in him should not perish but have everlasting life”. How much more plain to you have to get to know that it is faith alone that saves. Works is just a by product of our faith. It doesn’t matter what anyone else says. The Word of God doesn’t lie.

 

[Tomster]

Amen to that Janet. I usually go to Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that WHOEVER BELIEVES in him should not perish but have everlasting life”. How much more plain to you have to get to know that it is faith alone that saves. Works is just a by product of our faith. It doesn’t matter what anyone else says. The Word of God doesn’t lie.

I’m glad you said that. It is true, the Word of God doesn’t lie. Faith without works is dead (Read the Book of James). Even Satan and his minions believe. They have a certain type of faith. Look what their evil works got them.

fyi - Salvation is a process, not a one time event. Salvation can be lost.

 

[Mickey]

I’m glad you said that. It is true, the Word of God doesn’t lie. Faith without works is dead (Read the Book of James). Even Satan and his minions believe. They have a certain type of faith. Look what their evil works got them.

fyi - Salvation is a process, not a one time event. Salvation can be lost.

Amen Tomster. And if St James is not clear enough, we can take a look at this:

Luke 6:46-49
And why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say? Every one that cometh to me, and heareth my words, and doth them, I will show you to whom he is like. He is like to a man building a house, who digged deep, and laid the foundation upon a rock. And when a flood came, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and it could not shake it; for it was founded on a rock. But he that heareth, and doth not, is like to a man building his house upon the earth without a foundation: against which the stream beat vehemently, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.

 

[Janet1983]

You can continue to paste this infinitely, but it does justify the term “faith alone”. Faith and works cannot be separated–but I think you already know this.

Them being inseparable results only out of the fact that faith brings forth good works… Works however cannot bring forth faith or salvation.
We are saved through faith, but the works are a result of it.
Someone who got to know Christ and dies the next day is saved as much as someone who got to know Christ and lived accordingly bringing forth good fruit.
I can prove my claims with Scripture… You can’t.

 

[Janet1983]

I’m glad you said that. It is true, the Word of God doesn’t lie. Faith without works is dead (Read the Book of James). Even Satan and his minions believe. They have a certain type of faith. Look what their evil works got them.

fyi - Salvation is a process, not a one time event. Salvation can be lost.

James…
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
James 2:24 however is not contradicting the justification by faith alone this if we actually bother to look at the context…
James chapter 2 has 26 verses:
Verses 1-7 instruct us to not show favoritism.
Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law.
Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.
James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?” (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn’t any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.
In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, “faith without works is dead” (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.
Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith. James 2:23 says, “and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness” If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.

 

[Janet1983]

Amen to that Janet. I usually go to Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that WHOEVER BELIEVES in him should not perish but have everlasting life”. How much more plain to you have to get to know that it is faith alone that saves. Works is just a by product of our faith. It doesn’t matter what anyone else says. The Word of God doesn’t lie.

Exactly… Here is something for you:

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

 

[SSTeacher]

Someone who got to know Christ and dies the next day is saved as much as someone who got to know Christ and lived accordingly bringing forth good fruit.

If you’ve known somebody for only 24 hours you can’t truthfully declare that you know that person well. Your assertion seems to lead to the question as to what “knowing Christ” actually means from the Evangelical perspective and might even lead an objective analyst to wonder whether or not Almighty God endorses the Evangelical understanding of salvation since it isn’t one that the Holy Spirit led the early Church to adopt. It strikes me that your assertion involves taking a great deal for granted.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[PJM]

=Janet1983;5507972]Them being inseparable results only out of the fact that faith brings forth good works… Works however cannot bring forth faith or salvation.
We are saved through faith, but the works are a result of it.
Someone who got to know Christ and dies the next day is saved as much as someone who got to know Christ and lived accordingly bringing forth good fruit.
I can prove my claims with Scripture… You can’t.

***Not so!

Jn. 3:5 *"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Jn. 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

Jn. 3: 36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.”

Mt. 19:16 "And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep [all of the, all of the time] the commandments.”

Heb. 6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

2 Tim. 3:16 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” **

Friend, if we are going to use the bible to build our beliefs; we must use the entire Bible or NO BIBLE AT ALL:thumbsup:

---

Mt. 7:21"Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22* On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

Mt. 16:19 [speaking to St. Peter] 19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,”***
Love and prayers.

 

[jakasaki]

QUOTE=kalt;5506605]You have a rosey view of Judaism.

I don’t have a “rosey” view of Judaism - the Jewish forums I visit can’t stand the Christians - I was just saying is that the I don’t see the Jews going at among themselves.

And like I said - it could be “ignorance” on my end.

I know Orthodox Jews who barely speak to their Reform relatives. In this case the Orthodox are also strong Zionists who think that Jews should either more to Israel to promote its growth or they should send money to support the expansion.

I know nothing about Orthodox Jews. I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian, so I have no idea of that you are saying.

O

n Catholicism and the one, big, happy Christian family-

Protestants continual divisions is proof that this lack of family values

:shrug:I know nothing about Protestans.

isn’t coming from the Catholic side. Protestants who don’t get along, move on. There is no working it out. There’s no compromise. There’s no deferring to superior knowledge.

You are on a roll here - perhaps I didn’t quite state my post/reply properly.

If they don’t like the church they’re in, they move or build a new one.

While it’s popular habit to blame Catholics and the CC for the lack of fellowship among all Christians, to blame the CC for being too stubborn is to ignore what actually happens in the non-Catholic Christian world–division over difference

Man, oh man - I have no idea what you are replying to. I’ve **BLAMED **nothing on the Catholic Church and neither did my post.

I am a Eastern Orthodox Christian, who said that my family is mixed with Catholics and EO’s and we all get along with each other. That’s it!!!

Next time, I’ll be very cautious in answering a thread stated as:

Re: Non-Catholics, a question

It seems your mind was already made up with answerers you wish to receive before you even submitted your inquiry.

I once responded to a JW thread and man oh man, did I get my “you know what” chewed up and spit out.

I’m done here… thanks!

~ Peace ~

 

[Janet1983]

Jn. 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

That’s called faith… Works not mentioned here… Works are not for salvation, but a result of our faith.

Jn. 3: 36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.”

That is called faith too… Works not mentioned here either… Works are not for salvation, but a result of our faith. They are the good fruits of the good tree…

Mt. 19:16 "And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep [all of the, all of the time] the commandments.”

In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus was speaking to a Lawyer who was self-righteous since he wanted to put Jesus to the test (Luke 10:25). He asked what he must do in order to obtain eternal life and Jesus responded with the requirements of keeping the commandments. If a person keeps all of the commandments, it would seem that they could obtain eternal life. However, nobody can keep all of the commandments. Therefore, Jesus’ comments to this man show this man that justification can only be by faith since no one can keep all of the commandments. This is why it says in Eph. 2:8 that we are saved by grace through faith. Also, Romans 3:20,28 and Galatians 2:16 tells us that no one is justified in the sight of God by the law; that is, by the works that he can do.
There is no contradiction at all when we examine the contexts. We are justified by faith but that faith must be alive (James 2). The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it (Matthew 19:16-17). Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith.

Heb. 6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

What about reading the verse right before the one you quoted?
“9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.”
It explains itself…

2 Tim. 3:16 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

Of course we are to do good… I never doubted that. I just said that we cannot save ourselves with good works. We cannot bribe God into anything. Salvation is a gift and as a gift it is absolutely free. Works are the fruit of our faith.

Mt. 7:21"Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22* On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

“15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
If we are saved we bring forth good fruit and if we are not we won’t. Lip-service does not change that.

 

[freedomwriter]

Exactly… Here is something for you:

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

Right on Janet. I told you there were some here who don’t have a clue to what they are saying. Jn 3:16 says it all and it is plain to read. They try to add something that is not there.