Non-Catholics after death

[rel1]

When I’m dead, I no longer need a vicar of Christ (the pope), I will have Christ.
I will not need the Magisterium (teachers of the faith), I will have Christ.

The Church teaches that those in heaven are the Church Triumphant. Those in purgatory, the Church Suffering. In any case, the Church.

While I am alive, I am not part of this discussion. It’s an after death discussion.

Are you sure?

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Greetings Evan,

I am highly amused as to why you would have chosen to abbreviate my user name the say you did.

Ana S

When I have died, Truth (ie Christ … I am they way, the truth, and the life) will be with me. The Magisterium, in this life, on Earth, teaches us what has been revealed through Scripture, Tradition with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

The Magisterium speaks for Christ in this world and is limited to what Christ revealed in His earthly life and what the Holy Spirit continues to reveal. Somethings are unknown to us, they are true, but God has chosen to keep these truths to himself (eg what is the fate of unbaptized infants who die). If and when I have achieved heaven I will no longer need the Magisterium to speak for Christ, for Christ Himself will speak to me (and wipe away every tear).

When this world passes away and all are in Heaven or Hell, the Magisterium will pass away as will the visible Church, for all those in Heaven will be joined in the Body or Christ, the fulfillment of the Church here on Earth, the Church Triumphant.

It matters not whether they came to the Church via the visible Church Militant, a protestant reading of Scripture, a holy Buddhist or Moslem adherent, or a good athiest. If God has judged them worthy of the Body of Christ, they will become part of the Catholic Church and, if unbaptized, will received the baptism of desire.

For some reason I am having problems with the Visible Church being done away with. I do not think that is going to be the case.

Jesus nowhere indicated that would indeed be the case. Please substantiate your views with Church sources that would indicate that the Visible Church will be done away with. I am okay with people stating their views on things, but I wish to see what Church documents and sources they are using to back up their points of views. Or is all that you are submitting personal belief and not that according to the Magisterium of the Church. The Truth that the Magisterium of the Catholic Church teaches will not change nor be abrogated.

God bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[Evan]

When I’m dead, I no longer need a vicar of Christ (the pope), I will have Christ.
I will not need the Magisterium (teachers of the faith), I will have Christ.

The Church teaches that those in heaven are the Church Triumphant. Those in purgatory, the Church Suffering. In any case, the Church.

While I am alive, I am not part of this discussion. It’s an after death discussion.

Are you sure?

Quite sure. If I still needed the Pope, which one? and how would the popes, along with the Magisterium, be guiding me? and to where? I will have already been made holy.

They can only speak on things of Faith and Morals.

When in Heaven, there will be no Faith, for all will be revealed (Faith deals with things unseen).

And, being holy, Morals will be part of who I am and the guidance will come from the spirit dwelling within my soul.

 

[Evan]

Greetings Evan,

I am highly amused as to why you would have chosen to abbreviate my user name the say you did.

For some reason I am having problems with the Visible Church being done away with. I do not think that is going to be the case.

Jesus nowhere indicated that would indeed be the case. Please substantiate your views with Church sources that would indicate that the Visible Church will be done away with. I am okay with people stating their views on things, but I wish to see what Church documents and sources they are using to back up their points of views. Or is all that you are submitting personal belief and not that according to the Magisterium of the Church. The Truth that the Magisterium of the Catholic Church teaches will not change nor be abrogated.

God bless.
Anathama Sit

I wrote of the visible Church Militant.

The Parts of the Church

These things having been explained, it will be necessary to enumerate the several component parts of the Church, and to point out their difference, in order that the faithful may the better comprehend the nature, properties, gifts, and graces of God’s beloved Church, and by reason of them unceasingly praise the most holy name of God.

The Church consists principally of two parts, the one called the Church triumphant; the other, the Church militant. The Church triumphant is that most glorious and happy assemblage of blessed spirits, and of those who have triumphed over the world, the flesh, and the iniquity of Satan, and are now exempt and safe from the troubles of this life and enjoy everlasting bliss. The Church militant is the society of all the faithful still dwelling on earth. It is called militant, because it wages eternal war with those implacable enemies, the world, the flesh and the devil.

We are not, however, to infer that there are two Churches. The Church triumphant and the Church militant are two constituent parts of one Church; one part going before, and now in the possession of its heavenly country; the other, following every day, until at length, united with our Saviour, it shall repose in endless felicity.

So, in time, the Church Militant (I here assume that this what you are referring to when you write “the Visible Church”) will pass away and only the Church Triumphant will remain.

When I refer to the Visible Church (with capitals) I am usually referring to the Hierarchical Church [the Catholic Church as the world recognizes her]. The Church Militant and the Visible Church are separate but, we pray, has much overlap.

The Members Of The Church Militant

The Church militant is composed of two classes of persons, the good and the bad, both professing the same faith and partaking of the same Sacraments, yet differing in their manner of life and morality.

The good are those who are linked together not only by the profession of the same faith, and the participation of the same Sacraments, but also by the spirit of grace and the bond of charity. Of these St. Paul says: The Lord knoweth who are his. Who they are that compose this class we also may remotely conjecture, but we can by no means pronounce with certainty. Hence Christ the Saviour does not speak of this portion of His Church when He refers us to the Church and commands us to hear and to obey her. As this part of the Church is unknown, how could we ascertain with certainty whose decision to recur to, whose authority to obey?

 

[Evan]

Greetings Evan,

I am highly amused as to why you would have chosen to abbreviate my user name the say you did.

Ana S

To keep this friendly, I wanted to use a first name. But Anathama is sort of off-putting as a friendly ‘how dee doo’ so I chose a more ‘saintly’ patron (giving you to saint Ann’s protection).

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Ana S

To keep this friendly, I wanted to use a first name. But Anathama is sort of off-putting as a friendly ‘how dee doo’ so I chose a more ‘saintly’ patron (giving you to saint Ann’s protection).

Greetings Evan,

Truly I find it not friendly when one abbreviates one’s name either in real life or on the forum. But I understand where you are coming from. Please understand that when I chose this name, I knew it is what I would be called and do not shirk from it the least bit.

I know I have said this in other threads, perhaps one day I will share as to why I have chosen this as my username.

Please in the future, you can abbreviate my name to A.S. as it usually is abbreviated. [Just don’t thrown in an extra S or we will be in troulbe. ] This way you will not have to type in the word Anathama [grins] and I will not have to see an offensive abbreviation of my user name, though of course nothing against St. Ann.

God bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Greetings Evan,

I have read your other response. I am going to prayerfully consider it.

I will get back to you on a future date.

God bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[HelenRose]

When I’m dead, I no longer need a vicar of Christ (the pope), I will have Christ.
I will not need the Magisterium (teachers of the faith), I will have Christ.

The Church teaches that those in heaven are the Church Triumphant. Those in purgatory, the Church Suffering. In any case, the Church.

While I am alive, I am not part of this discussion. It’s an after death discussion.

Evan, You are certainly entitled to your beliefs about the “Church”. However, be careful to not present your opinions as if they there are Church doctrine.

The authority is the Pope and the Magisterium. When you separate yourself from that reality you are creating your own vision of what the Church is. This is no different than when Luther created his own vision of the Church.

 

[Evan]

Evan, You are certainly entitled to your beliefs about the “Church”. However, be careful to not present your opinions as if they there are Church doctrine.

The authority is the Pope and the Magisterium. When you separate yourself from that reality you are creating your own vision of what the Church is. This is no different than when Luther created his own vision of the Church.

HelenRose (is one word correct? ),

You do realize this is when I am dead?

I cannot join or separate myself at that point in my existence. I can only submit to the judgement of the Just Judge. If he finds me worthy of his Church Triumphant (His body, with Him as the head), then nothing can separate me from Him. If I am cast into the pit, I will forever be wailing and gnashing my teeth.\

Have to go now, 20 mi bike ride ahead. Have a blessed Labor Day.

 

[Will_S]

Evan, You are certainly entitled to your beliefs about the “Church”. However, be careful to not present your opinions as if they there are Church doctrine.

The authority is the Pope and the Magisterium. When you separate yourself from that reality you are creating your own vision of what the Church is. This is no different than when Luther created his own vision of the Church.

Helen, I’m not sure what your objection is. Every single soul in Purgatory is a member of the Church suffering and every single soul in Heaven is a member of the Church triumphant – that means they are Catholics, because “The Church”, whether militant, suffering, or triumphant is the Catholic Church and no other Church.

After death, a soul can be in Hell, in Heaven, or (temporarily) in Purgatory. Those are the only three options. Therefore, after death, a soul is either in Hell, or it is a member of the Catholic Church.

Certainly you do not imagine that the saints in Heaven will argue over whether there are 7 sacraments, or 2, or none at all? Any protestant (or other non-Catholic) who somehow makes it to Heaven will know at that time that, in life, they were gravely mistaken and believed error (although they were not culpable for whatever reason), and, in Purgatory or Heaven, will believe all of the truths that have always been taught by the Catholic Church.

 

[Heliotropium]

I’m not certain if pergatory is a Catholic-exclusive thing, but even if it’s not, I know there are some Christian denominations who do not believe in it. Saying that all Christians, not just Catholics, eventually go to heaven, where do those not believing in pergatory go first? Due to their personal beliefs, do they just go to heaven? Do they die, find out about pergatory, and think, “Huh, I suppose they were right.”?

Obviously, due to lack of experience, no one knows for sure, but what do we say happens to them?

Protestants will go to purgatory just like Catholics that have not paid the temporal debt owed by their sins. I always pray for the poor forgotten Protestants in purgatory since they have no one to pray for them.

 

[HelenRose]

Helen, I’m not sure what your objection is. Every single soul in Purgatory is a member of the Church suffering and every single soul in Heaven is a member of the Church triumphant – that means they are Catholics, because “The Church”, whether militant, suffering, or triumphant is the Catholic Church and no other Church.

After death, a soul can be in Hell, in Heaven, or (temporarily) in Purgatory. Those are the only three options. Therefore, after death, a soul is either in Hell, or it is a member of the Catholic Church.

Certainly you do not imagine that the saints in Heaven will argue over whether there are 7 sacraments, or 2, or none at all? Any protestant (or other non-Catholic) who somehow makes it to Heaven will know at that time that, in life, they were gravely mistaken and believed error (although they were not culpable for whatever reason), and, in Purgatory or Heaven, will believe all of the truths that have always been taught by the Catholic Church.

We may be talking past each other. I do know that there are those who believe that unless you are a Catholic you will go straight to hell. It seemed to me that this is what Evan was saying. If that is not the case then I apologize for misunderstanding his intent.

The Catechism does not teach that.

I do agree with your statement. “Therefore, after death, a soul is either in Hell, or it is a member of the Catholic Church.”

But here and now with the “visible Church” we can not make that judgement. We must leave this up to the Divine Mercy of God. Christ is the final judge who determines who will be part of Heaven (aka the Catholic Church Triumphant) when a person dies.

 

[HelenRose]

Protestants will go to purgatory just like Catholics that have not paid the temporal debt owed by their sins. I always pray for the poor forgotten Protestants in purgatory since they have no one to pray for them.

I think that the Protestants who are in purgatory have come to the conclusion that they are Catholics and they await the moment they are united with God in heaven (aka the Catholic Church Triumphant)

See above post.

 

[HelenRose]

I do wonder at times where the line can be drawn.

When does Trusting in God’s Divine Mercy crosses over to
Presumption of God’s Mercy.

This where only Christ has the knowledge of our inner most being.

 

[Heliotropium]

I think that the Protestants who are in purgatory have come to the conclusion that they are Catholics and they await the moment they are united with God in heaven (aka the Catholic Church Triumphant)

See above post.

Sorry the above post is not news to me my friend. I know after death they consider themselves Catholics (especially since this is what they are by virtue of Baptism): however this does not change the fact that those that identified themselves as protestants while on earth, are forgotten in purgatory since their protestant brethren do not pray for the repose of their souls.

I’m also not claiming that all Protestants go to hell or that all Protestants go to Purgatory in case you were wondering.

 

[HelenRose]

That is true enough. I know that I pray for my deceased family members who were not Catholic.

 

[rel1]

I imagine that they will be in the Catholic hell for eternity. But I haven’t been keeping up on Catholic dogma and doctrines. I heard however that the fire in hell has been extinguished. Now,it’s a place where God is not, like on earth. Please correct me if I’m wrong. You know something, I’m not worried because I’m catholic and I do have an immense ego.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

I imagine that they will be in the Catholic hell for eternity. But I haven’t been keeping up on Catholic dogma and doctrines. I heard however that the fire in hell has been extinguished. Now,it’s a place where God is not, like on earth. Please correct me if I’m wrong. You know something, I’m not worried because I’m catholic and I do have an immense ego.

Greetings Re1,

There is not such thing as “Catholic” Hell. Hell is Hell. Hell is not segregated into the different denominations and such, Hell is quite universal for ALL who die in a unrepentant in a state of mortal sin.

Whether the fires of Hell have not been extinguished nor not, Hell is not a good place. It lasts forever, eternal separation from God and not being able to look upon He who made us out of love and for love. What a terrifying reality.

Hell is mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Also check out one my favorite volumes to refer to Church dogmas, it is called Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott. It has a bit to say in there about Hell. This last resource is a difficult read at times, but is helpful in learning what the Church believes and teaches as Dogmas.

God bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[Evan]

We may be talking past each other. I do know that there are those who believe that unless you are a Catholic you will go straight to hell. It seemed to me that this is what Evan was saying. If that is not the case then I apologize for misunderstanding his intent…

Wow, I don’t know how you read that into what I was writing.

I did not use the term ‘Visible Church’. Anathama Sit used that term. I used the term Church Militant. And this part of the Church is visible (in that God created all things, visible and invisible) because we have our bodies. Whether a member of the Church Militant claims to be Catholic or not, does not determine membership. Membership is only known to God.

The invisible Church is the Church Suffering (those in purgatory) and the Church Triumphant (those in heaven) and all of those are Catholic.