Non-Catholics and James 2:18-26

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I guess one of my difficulties with this is that how is it that so many protestant churches teach different things on the same subject.
Well, that should make you very cautious about claiming “Protestants believe” this or that. As for how it is? Well, you guys have a pretty good answer–we don’t have a unified authority to decide points of disagreement. Perhaps even more tellingly, we have in our memory the fact that once we thought it necessary to reject what we had previously believed to the point of schism (we would generally claim that your side was also responsible for much of the schism by its intransigent attitude, but still, clearly we made plenty of choices that led to schism as well). While some over-zealous Catholic apologists will try to accuse the Orthodox of doctrinal confusion due to their lack of a “Magisterium,” that doesn’t seem to be the case for them. This is because they do have a conception of a unified Church that has always held to the Faith, even though their unified Church is defined (in a more Protestant style) as the Church that teaches true doctrine rather than the other way round.

For me at least, the question is not whether Protestant disunion is an evil, but how great an evil it is. Is it so great an evil that it must automatically muzzle any doubts we may have about Catholicism? In the end I tend to think not. But it’s a tough issue. For me at least the unity of the Church is the single biggest reason to be Catholic. It is the reason why I will never be entirely comfortable as a Protestant.

One other point–bear in mind that “Protestants” don’t necessarily define themselves first and foremost as “Protestants.” Anglicans and Lutherans, and sometimes Methodists, may see themselves as having more common ground with Catholics (on at least some points) than with many other Protestants. And then you have Baptists and Pentecostals who reject historic Protestantism outright (not all Baptists do–perhaps not all Pentecostals either–but many do). I’m not denying that all these groups are historically Protestant. My point is that Protestants don’t necessarily claim to have unity *as Protestants. *

I think that there is a central Protestant position, though, and it can be clearly discerned historically. It’s the tradition known as “Reformed” or “Calvinist.” There is far more to this tradition than the infamous “five points”–Methodists, for instance, are historically “Calvinist” in their sacramental theology but not in their soteriology (though obviously the one influences the other–Methodists are more open to baptismal regeneration because they don’t believe in the Calvinist doctrine of perseverance). In other words, Protestants who disagree with the Reformed tradition on one point will find themselves agreeing with it on another. On the whole (with the ironic exception of predestination, which is the one doctrine most commonly associated with the Reformed in most people’s minds), the Reformed do a good job of presenting those doctrines most likely to be held in common by Protestants. And even on predestination, their position only became a minority one with the rise of 19th-century revivalism and humanitarianism.

Edwin
 
I will probably go to my grave repeatedly considering the various positions on this portion of Scripture. I am Catholic and no doubt that carries some theological baggage with it that leaves me leaning toward a Catholic understanding. That much being said, I have to comment on a couple points regarding “the Protestant” interpretation that Sandusky has posited: James is primarily referring to justification as demonstrating/proving one’s faith as opposed to Paul who allegedlymeans something different.

My first comment is that such a distinction seems to go against one of the very basic tenets of Sola Scriptura that Scripture is clear and easily understood - the clarity of Scripture it is often called. Among others, a Protestant source to verify this position would be Wayne Grudems Systematic Theology. I don’t mean to pick on my friend Sandusky, but I will choose his posts as an example. Please look at some of the posts and the level of linguistic, historical and contextual information that is required to form, validate and comprehend such an interpration. It is no small task. Can we really expect everyone who wants to understand the Bible to have this level of education and intellectual acumen? I find that unlikely. For example, it is clearly beyond the intellectual level of some pretty intelligent people - like Martin Luther. Does anyone doubt his distrust of James was based on his INABILITY to reconcile James with Paul? At the very least, the concept of the Clarity of Scripture must go, or this highly intellectual understanding of James must go, or both.
My second comment is one of pure reasonableness. Very simply stated, if the contention that “salvation is by faith alone” was truly Gods intent then why would he inspire James to say, “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?” It doesn’t make any sense that God would inspire such a statement if the sola fide contention were true. In addition, to later cap it off with “See how a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone” is downright misleading on God’s part if, in fact, sola fide is Truth.
These two “commentaries”, Pauls profession that “if you have faith to move mountains but do not have love…then you are nothing” as well as the multitude of Scriptural references to the need for works as an integral part of faith - both in the Gospels and other NT writings - lead my already prejudiced intellect to remain on the Catholic side of this debate.
 
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Philthy:
I will probably go to my grave repeatedly considering the various positions on this portion of Scripture. I am Catholic and no doubt that carries some theological baggage with it that leaves me leaning toward a Catholic understanding. That much being said, I have to comment on a couple points regarding “the Protestant” interpretation that Sandusky has posited: James is primarily referring to justification as demonstrating/proving one’s faith as opposed to Paul who allegedlymeans something different.

My first comment is that such a distinction seems to go against one of the very basic tenets of Sola Scriptura that Scripture is clear and easily understood - the clarity of Scripture it is often called. Among others, a Protestant source to verify this position would be Wayne Grudems Systematic Theology. I don’t mean to pick on my friend Sandusky, but I will choose his posts as an example. Please look at some of the posts and the level of linguistic, historical and contextual information that is required to form, validate and comprehend such an interpration. It is no small task. Can we really expect everyone who wants to understand the Bible to have this level of education and intellectual acumen? I find that unlikely. For example, it is clearly beyond the intellectual level of some pretty intelligent people - like Martin Luther. Does anyone doubt his distrust of James was based on his INABILITY to reconcile James with Paul? At the very least, the concept of the Clarity of Scripture must go, or this highly intellectual understanding of James must go, or both.
My second comment is one of pure reasonableness. Very simply stated, if the contention that “salvation is by faith alone” was truly Gods intent then why would he inspire James to say, “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?” It doesn’t make any sense that God would inspire such a statement if the sola fide contention were true. In addition, to later cap it off with “See how a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone” is downright misleading on God’s part if, in fact, sola fide is Truth.
These two “commentaries”, Pauls profession that “if you have faith to move mountains but do not have love…then you are nothing” as well as the multitude of Scriptural references to the need for works as an integral part of faith - both in the Gospels and other NT writings - lead my already prejudiced intellect to remain on the Catholic side of this debate.
I think what really kills any Protestant interpretation is the references to Abraham. I don’t have any interest in writing it all out again, because I have done it so many times, but this link sums it up nicely: catholic-convert.com/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/Documents/AbrahamFaithAlone.doc
 
we are “justified” by FAITH in heaven and we are justified on this world by good works. We are declared righteous by the world, the witnesses, of our good works
 
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BennyD:
we are “justified” by FAITH in heaven and we are justified on this world by good works. We are declared righteous by the world, the witnesses, of our good works
Dont you think youve left a few loose ends? I mean, for starters, both Protestants and Catholics agree that we are justified by Faith. The distinction is what it means to be be justified by Faith alone, sola Fide, and what exactly Faith alone is, and when that justification occurs, and whether it’s permanent, and whether it is complete.
With all due respect, who cares about being “justified on this world”? And from whom does this “justification” come - from God or from those on the earth? If the latter, who cares about them?
Declared righteous by the world? Again, so what - who cares?
I don’t think this is what James was talking about, and it doesn’t line up with very much Scripture, and its not a reason for Luther to want to toss this book out…
 
1Cr 13:1-2 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Cr 13:13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

These are the verses I was looking for…anyone care to reconcile this teaching with the theological construct of sola fide?
 
Philthy said:
1Cr 13:1-2 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Cr 13:13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

These are the verses I was looking for…anyone care to reconcile this teaching with the theological construct of sola fide?

Quite easily, really. The “faith” of which Paul is speaking here is not the same thing as the “faith” by which we are saved.

Or are you willing to maintain that when an inspired author uses the same Greek word in different contexts, that word must necessarily mean the same thing? I think this is a dubious claim–but if you aren’t willing to maintain that then I’m not sure you have a case.

Edwin
 
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Contarini:
Quite easily, really. The “faith” of which Paul is speaking here is not the same thing as the “faith” by which we are saved.

Or are you willing to maintain that when an inspired author uses the same Greek word in different contexts, that word must necessarily mean the same thing? I think this is a dubious claim–but if you aren’t willing to maintain that then I’m not sure you have a case.

Edwin
No, as usual, I actually agree with you Edwin! Paul is talking about a “faith alone” faith, - ie, psuedo/intellectual faith without works of love - which everybody except the fringe recognizes as not being salvific. So was James. This is what Catholics and most Protestants understand faith to be: a faith which OF NECESSITY produces good works and is inseparably linked with them. Many Protestants are simply locked into “faith alone” as being some entity that we can never quite put our finger on - but they certainly know its not whatever is included in the concept of faith for Catholics: baptism, forgiving others, confession, Eucharist, etc etc. Yet all, but the fringe, will tell you that if faith doesn’t produce works, then it wasn’t saving faith. All I can say is, “no kidding - that’s what it means for works to be part of faith”
Its pretty silly really - I think most C and P’s are basically on the same page with respect to faith and works - yet it remains a cause of division. I smell a rat, and his name is Satan and he loves to take advantage of our pride.
 
i don’t understand…to the advocates of faith alone, does it mean that if you believe yet live a sinful life, you are saved? didn’t Jesus stress that whatever you do to people you do to him? i don’t get that position :confused:
 
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Contarini:
Quite easily, really. The “faith” of which Paul is speaking here is not the same thing as the “faith” by which we are saved.
Edwin
Out of curiousity, what kind of faith do you think Paul means when he says a “faith to move all mountains” - which I assume was a direct recollection of Christ’s “if you had the faith of a mustard seed you would say to this mountain, 'move…”? Interesting that he would implicate such a phrase and then call it “nothing”. Was he clarifying a misunderstood teaching of Christ?
It seems to me they both(James and Paul) do backward handstands trying to tell people that if you claim to have faith, believe you have faith, but it does manifest as actual works of love, then you are deceiving yourself.
 
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Philthy:
Out of curiousity, what kind of faith do you think Paul means when he says a “faith to move all mountains” - which I assume was a direct recollection of Christ’s “if you had the faith of a mustard seed you would say to this mountain, 'move…”? Interesting that he would implicate such a phrase and then call it “nothing”. Was he clarifying a misunderstood teaching of Christ?
It seems to me they both(James and Paul) do backward handstands trying to tell people that if you claim to have faith, believe you have faith, but it does manifest as actual works of love, then you are deceiving yourself.
Then you clearly have no case against sola fide. Because the position you have just described is the Protestant position. The Catholic position, as I understand it, is that you can have faith–the supernatural gift of God, identical with the faith that exists in a person in a state of grace–and yet not be justified before God.

This is the real question–does the person who claims to have faith but lacks charity really have faith or not? If such a person does not have faith at all, then the Protestant position stands and you have no Scriptural case against it.

To me, it seems that the major issue between Protestants and Catholics is one of terminology. I don’t think it should be church-dividing, and I don’t think you can prove one or the other terminology from Scripture. I do think that the Protestant terminology is superior, as is shown by the fact that you fall into it even when you think you are arguing against it. And far more importantly, the Protestant terminology allows for a clearer proclamation of the Gospel to persons who have “unformed” faith (i.e., who accept the truth of Christianity intellectually or culturally but do not show the fruit of charity). The Catholic position assumes that such people have faith and need to be urged to add charity to their faith. The Protestant position assumes that these people need to be urged to place their whole trust in Christ, and that love with its works will follow this proclamation of the Gospel. On the whole, I think the Protestant method is more fruitful in bringing people to faith formed by love, although many forms of Protestantism (particularly the Baptist tradition) vitiate this proclamation by false doctrines such as “eternal security” which can easily lead to people believing that saving faith exists apart from charity (downright heresy beside which the differences between Catholicism and mainstream Protestantism fade into insignificance).

Edwin
 
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inJESUS:
i don’t understand…to the advocates of faith alone, does it mean that if you believe yet live a sinful life, you are saved? didn’t Jesus stress that whatever you do to people you do to him? i don’t get that position :confused:
The “classical” Protestant position is that theoretically yes, it is faith alone that saves, so that a believer’s sins don’t separate the believer from God; but at the same time a person who has saving faith will strive to lead a holy life and will not remain in serious sin. So no one who lives a life of continuous, unrepentant sin will be saved, because such a person clearly does not have true faith. This was the position of Luther and Calvin and all the Reformers, although admittedly the “Reformed” (such as Calvin) expressed it more clearly and consistently than Luther (some Catholics are fond of taking isolated rhetorical statements by Luther out of context to make it seem that he thought you could be saved and live a life of sin).

However, many other Protestants, such as Methodists, Anabaptists, etc., would go further (I am one of them). We would say, just as you do, that sin directly affects our relationship with God. (Luther came close to this, but he put it in a more roundabout way–if you do not resist sin then you will eventually lose faith in Christ and be damned unless you repent.) We have no problem saying that our final judgment before God is on the basis of both faith and works. Our main difference with Catholicism is over the question of whether a person not living a holy life can be said to have faith at all. We think not. The “faith” that does not produce works is a mere intellectual opinion, of no more value than any other true opinion.

Edwin
 
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Philthy:
No, as usual, I actually agree with you Edwin! Paul is talking about a “faith alone” faith, - ie, psuedo/intellectual faith without works of love - which everybody except the fringe recognizes as not being salvific. So was James. This is what Catholics and most Protestants understand faith to be: a faith which OF NECESSITY produces good works and is inseparably linked with them. Many Protestants are simply locked into “faith alone” as being some entity that we can never quite put our finger on - but they certainly know its not whatever is included in the concept of faith for Catholics: baptism, forgiving others, confession, Eucharist, etc etc. Yet all, but the fringe, will tell you that if faith doesn’t produce works, then it wasn’t saving faith. All I can say is, “no kidding - that’s what it means for works to be part of faith”
Its pretty silly really - I think most C and P’s are basically on the same page with respect to faith and works - yet it remains a cause of division. I smell a rat, and his name is Satan and he loves to take advantage of our pride.
Philthy,

Sorry for responding rather adversarially to your post #51 before reading this one.

As I said in my previous post, I basically agree that it’s a question of terminology, but I do think that there is some merit in the Protestant approach because it allows for a clearer proclamation of the Gospel. (Many Catholics, such as Fr. Cantalamessa, admit that Catholics have a problem in this regard–but naturally you are unwilling to admit that the problem might be in your doctrinal formulation itself. I hope that Catholics do find a way to reformulate your position to allow for clearer Gospel proclamation without directly contradicting your previously defined doctrines. I think statements like the Joint Declaration with the Lutherans are making progress toward this goal.)

It’s interesting that scholars who have looked at early Catholic responses to Luther have found that they generally didn’t have a problem with Luther’s teaching on faith directly. Their problem was with the implications Luther drew from his doctrine, especially with regard to the sacraments. I was just reading Henry VIII’s response to Luther this afternoon, and that’s the impression I’m getting from that text. Later on, due to Luther’s continual insistence that this was the main point of difference, Catholics did come to agree that justification by faith alone was a major heresy. I think this was the unfortunate beginning of that Catholic aversion to evangelical language to which Fr. Cantalamessa referred in his sermon. Catholics such as Cardinals Contarini and Pole (the latter of whom missed becoming Pope by only one vote!) who were orthodox on all other points were regarded with suspicion because of their sympathy with evangelical doctrine concerning faith. I don’t think that would have been the case in 1520, and I don’t think this was a correct way to look at it. The evangelical doctrine of faith does not have to be a solvent that destroys traditional Christian belief in the sacraments, the communion of faith, etc There are plenty of historical reasons why it came to be seen that way in the 16th century (far more so in the theology of Zwingli and Calvin than in Luther’s). But Christians today need to reexamine the issue and separate the evangelical core (the call to sinners to repent and believe in Christ) from the unnecessarily polemical accretions of the Reformation era.

Edwin
 
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Contarini:
Philthy,

Sorry for responding rather adversarially to your post #51 before reading this one.
Not a problem - you are generally very gracious in your posts and Ive made the same mistake myself. I hope the adversarial nature of this forum is not getting the best of us…
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Contarini:
As I said in my previous post, I basically agree that it’s a question of terminology, but I do think that there is some merit in the Protestant approach because it allows for a clearer proclamation of the Gospel.
I probably don’t know the nuances as well as you, agree that a clear message is desireable, but also have witnessed “the Protestant approach” has led some to minimize or eliminate the active role that faith must take in our lives. I am certainly not in a position to judge others, thank God.
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Contarini:
It’s interesting that scholars who have looked at early Catholic responses to Luther have found that they generally didn’t have a problem with Luther’s teaching on faith directly. Their problem was with the implications Luther drew from his doctrine, especially with regard to the sacraments.

I agree - it is often in the application of the “teachings” that we come to fully understand the author’s intent. Language is a slippery system at best; the applications of Luthers concepts seem to elucidate a theology slightly more rigid than the articulation of those teachings…
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Contarini:
Catholics did come to agree that justification by faith alone was a major heresy.
I think some rotten fruit came from that simple phrase - its just too vague…
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Contarini:
I think this was the unfortunate beginning of that Catholic aversion to evangelical language to which Fr. Cantalamessa referred in his sermon.
I agree that this was unfortunate
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Contarini:
Catholics such as Cardinals Contarini
Ahaa! Your namesake no doubt! I know nothing of him…
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Contarini:
and Pole (the latter of whom missed becoming Pope by only one vote!) who were orthodox on all other points were regarded with suspicion because of their sympathy with evangelical doctrine concerning faith. I don’t think that would have been the case in 1520, and I don’t think this was a correct way to look at it.
Agreed, but it’s not so much a question of how to “look at it” for the theologians, it became a question for the Church of how to respond to the detrimental effects it had on some, dont you think?
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Contarini:
The evangelical doctrine of faith does not have to be a solvent that destroys traditional Christian belief in the sacraments, the communion of faith, etc There are plenty of historical reasons why it came to be seen that way in the 16th century (far more so in the theology of Zwingli and Calvin than in Luther’s).
You are correct again, but the fact that it “doesnt have to be a solvent” is second in line to the reality that it actually did bring about the destruction of traditional Christian belief in the Sacraments, etc and that remains an unresolved problem.
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Contarini:
But Christians today need to reexamine the issue and separate the evangelical core (the call to sinners to repent and believe in Christ) from the unnecessarily polemical accretions of the Reformation era.
Edwin
I totally agree. This will require being led in that direction - that’s easy enough for Catholics and the mainstream Protestants, but how exactly will that be accomplished for the millions who have no true leadership and who’s faith has been formed by an aversion to any such leadership? Very difficult…
 
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BennyD:
we are “justified” by FAITH in heaven and we are justified on this world by good works. We are declared righteous by the world, the witnesses, of our good works
Where does it say this in the Bible?
 
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