Non-Catholics and Mortal Sin...

[Conor7]

LOL So if someone says well a mute could write out their sins you’d say well that would account for those with no hands. And what of those that cant hear how do they ever hear the dictates God has put forward? But when someone says they could use sign language you’d say what of those who are also blind. You dont need to go that far to tell us you dont believe in the practice of reconciliation.

With all due respect it doesnt appear as though you are genuinely seeking an answer. Just my observation. Please forgive me if I am wrong

My apologies if it appears that I am not genuinely seeking an answer, but I was sincere.

It’s not that I don’t believe in the practice of reconciliation, I don’t understand it’s necessity and your above argument, in a way, further cements my feelings on the topic.

In short, it seems terribly complex and leaves those who have access to a priest in a better position.

What has occurred to me over the course of this conversation is that we are really in no better position than those who were under the old Jewish law in the Old Testament. What’s the difference, really, between going to confession and sacrificing a dove at the temple? We are left without access to God.

Truthfully, I’m bewildered.

 

[jlhargus]

When do Catholics Believe that the Apostles recieved the Holy spirit?

First time when they were born again by water AND of the Spirit at baptism.

 

[ignatius777]

My apologies if it appears that I am not genuinely seeking an answer, but I was sincere.

It’s not that I don’t believe in the practice of reconciliation, I don’t understand it’s necessity and your above argument, in a way, further cements my feelings on the topic.

In short, it seems terribly complex and leaves those who have access to a priest in a better position.

What has occurred to me over the course of this conversation is that we are really in no better position than those who were under the old Jewish law in the Old Testament. What’s the difference, really, between going to confession and sacrificing a dove at the temple? We are left without access to God.

Truthfully, I’m bewildered.

You have made my point for me better then I ever could. This is precisely why Jesus left us the sacraments to counteract the human need for proof of God’s presence in the world and in our lives. The jews wondered the desert demanding signs that God was with them and every sign that God gave them they ignored. That was not God’s fault and its not God’s fault that people fail to see the grace that he contunially provides throug hthe sacraments.

I have no doubt you are bewildered and I pray that your eyes be opened.

 

[jlhargus]

The Catholic Church in Her Catechism teaches the following about mortal sin:

"Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him…Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us—that is, charity—necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation…For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent…Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments…”

Now, since protestants have full knowledge of the Ten Commandments (which constitute grave matter), and since they presumably [with free will and deliberate consent] break the ten commandments (or have at least done so once), are protestants in a perpetual state of mortal sin?

Essentially, the reason that I ask this questions is that unlike the situation of Catholics who commit mortal sins, conversion of heart and God’s newly initiated mercy is not able to occur through the normal form of sacramental confession for protestants (because they don’t believe in or practice sacramental confession like Catholics do).

This said, there is one extra ordinary method of converting one’s heart and attaining God’s newly initiated mercy (after baptism).

Essentially, it is to ask God for forgiveness through prayer in one’s heart, but the Catholic Church teaches that the stipulation in this situation is that the sinner is doing so in a state of perfect contrition. Perfect contrition is sorrow for one’s sins (and a resolve to repent and turn from them) purely out of love for God. This is a hard state to be in, though, and it is very rare. Most people (even Catholics) don’t ever attain perfect contrition. Instead, they attain imperfect contrition (or attrition), which is sorrow for sins (and a resolve to repent and turn from them) out of love of God AND any combination of the following – fear of God and His eternal wrath (aka: hell) AND/OR the realization of the ugliness of the sin that one has committed. On a side note, some people never have sorrow for their sins due to the motivation of love of God, but instead only have sorrow for their sins via either or both of the other two motivations – of fear of God or repulse at their evil and sinfulness. This said, even these people have achieved imperfect contrition (or attrition), because in God’s infinite mercy, he accepts any form of sorrow for sins, but for mortal sins to be forgiven/absolved (and the sinner to be taken out of the state of mortal sin and put back into the state of grace), He does require perfect contrition or sacramental confession from the sinner.

So since most people don’t attain perfect contrition (and instead only attain imperfect contrition/attrition), most people actually need sacramental confession to be forgiven of their mortal sins, but as mentioned before, protestants don’t practice or believe in sacramental confession.

So if they have knowingly and free-willingly broken one of the Ten Commandments and have thereby committed mortal sin, do protestants (absent from such perfect contrition) remain in that spiritually dead state perpetually?

I would guess it’s much like baptism of desire.

 

[Conor7]

You have made my point for me better then I ever could. This is precisely why Jesus left us the sacraments to counteract the human need for proof of God’s presence in the world and in our lives. The jews wondered the desert demanding signs that God was with them and every sign that God gave them they ignored. That was not God’s fault and its not God’s fault that people fail to see the grace that he contunially provides throug hthe sacraments.

I have no doubt you are bewildered and I pray that your eyes be opened.

I’m apprehensive to even ask for fear that your patience with me is growing thin, so why is the sacrament of confession a necessity?

 

[Makko52]

First time when they were born again by water AND of the Spirit at baptism.

When where they Baptized?

 

[tmyers]

OK, I follow. So then why would one be in error to confess directly to God?

And, I’m not trying to trick you into anything; I’m really just trying to understand.

One would not be in error to confess directly to God.
This said, as has been mentioned, when left up solely to God to forgive/absolve a sinner from his/her sins, he requires that the person has perfect contrition. Again, most people never reach the level of having perfect contrition for their sins. In God’s mercy and wisdom, though, He has made it such that this stipulative condition of having perfect contrition is not a requirement in the Sacrament of Confession, though. The reason for this is that God has given those persons who He has conferred His true priesthood upon the power and authority to forgive/retain sins…period. Priests, being only human and not knowing whether a person has perfect contrition or only attrition (imperfect contrition) either forgives/retains sins (and yes, priests do retain sins when they discern that the penitent is not sincere in regards to their resolve to turn from their sin). So in the confessional, by nature of the priest’s lack of knowledge about the nature of the penitent’s inner sorrow for sins, God has made it such that one can be forgiven with only imperfect contrition/attrition. Again, though, this is only permissible in the Sacrament of Confession. Outside of this Sacrament, one needs perfect contrition to receive God’s forgiveness/absolution and mercy.

So, if you choose to forgo Sacramental Confession, you better be sure that your contrition is perfect (and not imperfect). Again, this is very hard, and most people never attain this. If you are the rarity and exception to the general rule, though, then by all means, feel free to forgo the Sacrament. Know, though, that generally, if you have perfect contrition, you will still want to go to confession, receive absolution, perform the penances/reparations that the priest prescribes for you to rebuild your communion with God and His Church. Christ did institute this Sacrament for a reason, and furthermore, those who do not partake in it are not necessarily erring, but they are definitely endangering their spiritual life of the soul.

God has given us the most sure way of knowing that our sins are forgiven; why would you want to be in the state of unknowing about this very crucial matter regarding your very soul and its eternal destiny (especially when God, Himself, wanted to gift us with the grace of certainty through this Sacrament, and thereby nurture in an even greater way, our faith and trust in Him)?

 

[tmyers]

When where they Baptized?

I believe that the answer is that they followed after Jesus when He was baptized by John the Baptist.

 

[tmyers]

So, back to the main question of this thread…

Are those Christians who do not believe in or practice the sacrament of confession (barring the rare occasion that they have true and perfect contrition), in a continuous and perpetual state of mortal sin?

 

[Conor7]

One would not be in error to confess directly to God.
This said, as has been mentioned, when left up solely to God to forgive/absolve a sinner from his/her sins, he requires that the person has perfect contrition. Again, most people never reach the level of having perfect contrition for their sins. In God’s mercy and wisdom, though, He has made it such that this stipulative condition of having perfect contrition is not a requirement in the Sacrament of Confession, though. The reason for this is that God has given those persons who He has conferred His true priesthood upon the power and authority to forgive/retain sins…period. Priests, being only human and not knowing whether a person has perfect contrition or only attrition (imperfect contrition) either forgives/retains sins (and yes, priests do retain sins when they discern that the penitent is not sincere in regards to their resolve to turn from their sin). So in the confessional, by nature of the priest’s lack of knowledge about the nature of the penitent’s inner sorrow for sins, God has made it such that one can be forgiven with only imperfect contrition/attrition. Again, though, this is only permissible in the Sacrament of Confession. Outside of this Sacrament, one needs perfect contrition to receive God’s forgiveness/absolution and mercy.

So, if you choose to forgo Sacramental Confession, you better be sure that your contrition is perfect (and not imperfect). Again, this is very hard, and most people never attain this. If you are the rarity and exception to the general rule, though, then by all means, feel free to forgo the Sacrament. Know, though, that generally, if you have perfect contrition, you will still want to go to confession, receive absolution, perform the penances/reparations that the priest prescribes for you to rebuild your communion with God and His Church. Christ did institute this Sacrament for a reason, and furthermore, those who do not partake in it are not necessarily erring, but they are definitely endangering their spiritual life of the soul.

God has given us the most sure way of knowing that our sins are forgiven; why would you want to be in the state of unknowing about this very crucial matter regarding your very soul and its eternal destiny (especially when God, Himself, wanted to gift us with the grace of certainty through this Sacrament, and thereby nurture in an even greater way, our faith and trust in Him)?

Now this is beginning to make some sense to me. Thank you. I think anytime I’ve had this conversation with someone, they think I am trying to debate them on the issue. Whereas, I’m just trying to wrap my mind around it. This issue for me is not whether you’re in error or if Protestants are in error, the issue for me is simply trying to understand the “why.”

So if you’ll forgive the analogy, it’s as if God were saying he’ll take on only the truly serious and sincere cases, all others can go through his assistants—imperfect contrition receives imperfect forgiveness, and perfect contrition receives perfect forgiveness.

 

[tmyers]

P.S.;

When it comes to answering some of these questions, please know that I am only a 22 year old who only just converted via RCIA three years ago. So I am still very young in and new to the Catholic faith, and have much learning to do.

As such, any help in answering these questions has been and will continue to be truly appreciated.

Thanks to everyone, and to everyone, God Bless!!!

 

[Conor7]

So, back to the main question of this thread…

Are those Christians who do not believe in or practice the sacrament of confession (barring the rare occasion that they have true and perfect contrition), in a continuous and perpetual state of mortal sin?

Sorry to derail your thread, tmyers! So to answer your question, now that it has been explained to me, Protestant are indeed in a perpetual state of mortal sin according to your definition.

 

[jlhargus]

When where they Baptized?

I really don’t want to derail this thread if you would like to discuss baptism please start another line and let me know. I would be happy to join you. Scripture does not specifcally name who was baptized in [Jn3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.]

Yet it’s not likely the disciples did not baptize each other with Jesus’ BAPTISM. Especially right after Christ telling Nicodemus in [Jn3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, **Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, HOW can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN OF water AND OF the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.]

 

[tmyers]

Now this is beginning to make some sense to me. Thank you. I think anytime I’ve had this conversation with someone, they think I am trying to debate them on the issue. Whereas, I’m just trying to wrap my mind around it. This issue for me is not whether you’re in error or if Protestants are in error, the issue for me is simply trying to understand the “why.”

So if you’ll forgive the analogy, it’s as if God were saying he’ll take on only the truly serious and sincere cases, all others can go through his assistants—imperfect contrition receives imperfect forgiveness, and perfect contrition receives perfect forgiveness.

Confession is only truly necessary to be forgiven when mortal sin has taken place and been committed by the sinner. All mortal sin is truly serious. So God is deferring the work of His mercy, even in these truly serious cases, to His “assistants.”

Incidentally, venial sins are forgiven at each Mass that a person/sinner attends (primarily through the reception of the Eucharist). Venial sins, therefore, do not require Sacramental Confession. Truly contrite sinners, though, still bring their venial sins to the confessional and confess them to the priest, as well. With this in mind, protestants don’t attend Mass or partake in the Eucharist, therefore, their venial sins don’t get forgiven. So I would assume that for those who do not attend Mass/partake in the Eucharist, the Sacrament of Confession is necessary for even venial sins to be forgiven. Of course protestants are doubly screwing themselves, because on top of not attending Mass and partaking in the Eucharist, they also don’t practice the Sacrament of Confession. The good news is that venial sins do not completely sever the relationship with God and make the soul spiritually dead. So there is still opportunity for reparation for venial sins after death (via purgatory), but this is a completely different and tangential topic, and I don’t want to get too much off topic.

Imperfect contrition does not receive the absolution of God (or even imperfect forgiveness) outside of the confessional. With imperfect contrition, the sinner remains in the state of mortal sin (which is spiritual death and complete separation from God and His friendship).

The ordinary means of receiving God’s forgiveness and absolution is the Sacrament of Confession.

God offers the extra ordinary (or abnormal) method of receiving His mercy and absolution (via perfect and sincere contrition offered directly to Him) for those rare instances where a priest is not available to offer the Sacrament of Confession to a sinner. This happens a lot with missionaries, and for protestants, it happens every day, because they don’t have priests who have the authority to offer them the Sacrament of Confession. The extra ordinary (or abnormal) method comes with a very high expectation and condition, though, which is difficult to attain. Again, this is perfect contrition (or sorrow for sins purely out of love of God and not wanting to offend Him anymore). If fear of God or the realization of one’s own ugliness due to his/her sinfulness is even somewhat involved in the penitent’s sorrow for sins, perfect contrition has not been attained. Therefore, in this case of perfect contrition not being attained, going directly to God was unfortunately not enough for the poor soul of the penitent. This poor soul truly needed the sacrament of confession.

I don’t think your analogy applies. Sorry!

 

[Conor7]

I thought I had tmeyers, but now I’m back at sqaure one. Thank you for trying to explain it to me, but I’ll just ask a priest as not to derail the conversation any further.

 

[tmyers]

I think you get it; I just don’t think you are willing to accept it.
Please discern this distinction in your heart.

I apologize for failing you.

Many prayers…God Bless!!!

 

[Conor7]

I think you get it; I just don’t think you are willing to accept it.
Please discern this distinction in your heart.

I apologize for failing you.

Many prayers…God Bless!!!

You didn’t fail me!

I don’t know that I’m unwilling to accept it, but I am struggling with the implications of it all. It means no non-christians, extraordinarily few Prostestants, and a minority of Catholics go to heaven.

More than anything, it leaves me with a crisis of faith.

 

[jlhargus]

so why is the sacrament of confession a necessity?

JL: The simple and fast answer the sacraments are necessary, as they give GRACE, yet they are not an ABSOLUTE necessity. God is not limited by the sacraments. He can act when and how He wills. They are given for the good of His people. Baptism is necessary for salvation being BORN AGAIN. Yet we see the thief on the cross being saved without water baptism. He had no opportunity to be water baptized, thru no fault of his own, he desired to do God’s will.

There is a necessary and natural way a child is to be born, yet it is not an ABSOLUTE necessity. In emergencies the physician can birth the child apart from the necessary and natural way by cesarean.

Baptism gives the grace of forgiveness of sins and the indwelling Holy Spirit, regenerating a dead soul, with original and personal sin. Mortal sin AFTER BAPTISM destroys the life of God indwelling the soul. The presents of God will not dwell in an unclean temple. the Sacrament of Confession is the necessary and ordinary way God restores the grace of life (indwelling Holy Spirit) to a spiritually dead soul.

the Scriptures are God breathed, God breathed on Adam and God breathed on the apostles. What does God’s breath give? LIFE. His breath gave life to Adam, the breathed Scripture give life to faith. So also God’s breath gives life in confession to a spiritually dead soul, who has spiritually died AFTER baptism.

[Jn20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: AS MY FATHER hath SENT ME, even so SEND I YOU. 22 And when he had said this, **HE BREATHED ON THEM, and saith unto them, RECEIVE YE THE HOLY GHOST: 23 WHOSE SOEVER SINS YE REMIT, they ARE REMITTED unto them; and WHOSE SOEVER SINS YE RETAIN, they ARE RETAINED.]

Among other things, the Father also SENT Christ to forgive sins? LIKEWISE Christ SENDS the apostles with the SAME authority AS the Father SENT Him. How could the apostles know and judge whether to REMIT SINS or RETAIN SINS if they don’t know what those sins are?

I don’t know if this helps. I’m not sure I grasp what you really want to know. Also I don’t think your off topic at all.

 

[JonNC]

How would you be certain your sins are absolved. If God intended direct forgivenss why give the apostles authority to forgive sins. again sacarments are evidence of salvation at work in our lives. They are how God dispenses grace as he promised to forever to be present to us.

This is the answer.

It isn’t that we can’t ask for forgiveness directly from God. After all, the Lord’s Prayer/Our Father says, “…and forgive us our sins…”. The issue is about absolution, which comes from the pastor/priest, the reassurance that, in fact, our sins are forgiven.

Jon

 

[pablope]

I truly appreciate you trying to explain, ignatius, but this is sort of argument that I always find confusing, and is perhaps why I always fail to quite grasp the concept of the necessity of confession.

It’s like arguing one could never be certain that God has answered his prayers for his cancer to go into remission unless he sought out extreme unction. Does that make sense? Perhaps it will at least give you a better understanding of my thought process.

I will recommend a book…for a deeper understanding…Lord Have Mercy by Scott Hahn.

God understands our human nature…one of the hardest for us humans to admit to is our fault…our sins.

Recall the Fall in Genesis 3…God asks Adam and the Woman what have they done…yet He is God and knows they have sinned…yet he asks them…what have they done?

So, what was God wanting them to do?

Look at their responses…Adam even blames God, and the Woman blames the serpent…they were rationalizing.

In oral confession, there are no ifs or buts…when we go to the confessional…we had humbled ourselves that we have sinned…realized we have sinned…and convict ourselves we have sinned…and so our desire to reconcile with God…and then we find the courage to go to the confessional.

In the confessional…there are no ifs and buts…but a direct recounting of our sins…venial sins are also encouraged…a direct admission of our guilt…and an expressed desire to do right by God.

Hope this helps.