Non-Catholics and Mortal Sin...

[rinnie]

Well, then can you explain this scripture to me?

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

When Jesus Breathed on them, did they recieve the Holy Ghost?

I believe the Apostles first received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

Then later Jesus breathed on them and told them to receive the Holy Spirit for the forgiveness of sins. That is when Jesus gave them the Power through his Spirit to forgive sins in his name.

 

[rinnie]

Sorry to derail your thread, tmyers! So to answer your question, now that it has been explained to me, Protestant are indeed in a perpetual state of mortal sin according to your definition.

I believe anyone is in a state of Mortal sin if they sin against God and refuse to repent the sin. Anyone who separates themself from God and puts the sin above God are in mortal sin.

I don’t believe it matters what religion you are.

 

[rinnie]

This is the answer.

It isn’t that we can’t ask for forgiveness directly from God. After all, the Lord’s Prayer/Our Father says, “…and forgive us our sins…”. The issue is about absolution, which comes from the pastor/priest, the reassurance that, in fact, our sins are forgiven.

Jon

This is exactly true. And as Jon stated only by absolution from a Priest can we know for sure that we are again in a state of Grace.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

You didn’t fail me!

I don’t know that I’m unwilling to accept it, but I am struggling with the implications of it all. It means no non-christians, extraordinarily few Prostestants, and a minority of Catholics go to heaven.

More than anything, it leaves me with a crisis of faith.

Ah, but remember, we have purgatory! I aspire to purgatory! I know I will not be ready for heaven by the time I die, but purgatory…please dear Jesus, let me achieve purgatory!

Jesus never said that everyone would get into Heaven, remember? He said the way is narrow. He also said he didn’t come to unite, but to divide. Actually if you just read the NT, the things Jesus said are absolutely disquieting.

 

[Georgia]

I well remember my last pastor in my Fundamentalist church giving a sermon in which he argued that all sin was the same in the eyes of God. He was convinced that every sin carried the same weight. Sin was sin with no gradients.

All one had to do, no matter the sin, was to repent and to pray for forgiveness and that sin went away forever. It was as if it never happened.

 

[Kristin234]

How would you be certain your sins are absolved. If God intended direct forgivenss why give the apostles authority to forgive sins. again sacarments are evidence of salvation at work in our lives. They are how God dispenses grace as he promised to forever to be present to us.

This is how I am certain

“If My people, who are called by My name, shall humble themselves, pray, seek, crave, and require of necessity My face and turn from their wicked ways,** then will I hear from heaven, forgive their sin**, and heal their land.”

“I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,” and you forgave the iniquity of my sin.”

As for your statement about people who say they don’t confess their sins to a priest most likely don’t do it to God either…how do you know? What kind of experience is that? When I pray to God on my own it is a deeply personal and emotional moment. I am constantly asking Him to forgive me of my sins. I don’t go up to people and say “hey guess what I just did…I just prayed and asked God for forgiveness!” So I don’t see how anyone can say based on their experience people don’t confess to God. Someone can be sitting next to you confessing to God and you wouldn’t even know it.

 

[Kristin234]

All one had to do, no matter the sin, was to repent and to pray for forgiveness and that sin went away forever. It was as if it never happened.

“For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.”

 

[batman1973]

Ah, but remember, we have purgatory! I aspire to purgatory! I know I will not be ready for heaven by the time I die, but purgatory…please dear Jesus, let me achieve purgatory!

Jesus never said that everyone would get into Heaven, remember? He said the way is narrow. He also said he didn’t come to unite, but to divide. Actually if you just read the NT, the things Jesus said are absolutely disquieting.

No offense, but, I’m gonna aspire for higher. Dear Jesus, have mercy on me, a poor sinner! I want to be with You in Heaven! (I am grateful that Jesus is my advocate with the Father, and there is confession and absolution! Thank you Jesus!)

 

[TheRealJuliane]

No offense, but, I’m gonna aspire for higher. Dear Jesus, have mercy on me, a poor sinner! I want to be with You in Heaven! (I am grateful that Jesus is my advocate with the Father, and there is confession and absolution! Thank you Jesus!)

Well, sure, I’d love to go straight to Heaven, and I pray for that too, but I’m pretty sure my temporal effects will need several lifetimes to purge (not to reverse presume or anything, but…).

So I’m good with going to purgatory where fine folks like those here on this forum will pray for my soul.

 

[poorsinner7]

Well, sure, I’d love to go straight to Heaven, and I pray for that too, but I’m pretty sure my temporal effects will need several lifetimes to purge (not to reverse presume or anything, but…).

So I’m good with going to purgatory where fine folks like those here on this forum will pray for my soul.

I understand that no one knows how long purging of sins takes. For all we know the process could take a split second. Anyhow, because time and space are not part of eternity it will seem like a split second by comparison.

Something I don’t recall hearing here was explained to me several times by priests. Someone can participate in the sacrament of reconciliation and not be truly sorry for their sins. The idea that one can make perfect contrition isn’t really that difficult for me to fathom because I always feel humiliated after sins, even venial ones. I don’t want to offend God. Thinking in terms of eternity is far less on my mind. I don’t want to offend God even when I do things that are wrong. Sometimes there are other mitigating circumstances that impact when acts are committed against God. Culpability does play an enormous part in mortal sin. I’m coming to an understanding of that more than ever. A confessor recently explained to me this concept in a way that helped me understand or at least believe. For example, extreme anxieties can cause someone to do things they otherwise might not or would not normally do.

 

[rinnie]

No offense, but, I’m gonna aspire for higher. Dear Jesus, have mercy on me, a poor sinner! I want to be with You in Heaven! (I am grateful that Jesus is my advocate with the Father, and there is confession and absolution! Thank you Jesus!)

You absolutely can, and we should all aspire for the higher. It is the main goal. But the difference is when you die and have absolution from you sin which means you die in a state of grace, and being completely cleansed of that sin.

That is why Purgatory is another great gift from God.

 

[rinnie]

I well remember my last pastor in my Fundamentalist church giving a sermon in which he argued that all sin was the same in the eyes of God. He was convinced that every sin carried the same weight. Sin was sin with no gradients.

All one had to do, no matter the sin, was to repent and to pray for forgiveness and that sin went away forever. It was as if it never happened.

Georgia I am sorry to disagree with you, but none of this is taught in the CC.

To begin with the word of God tells you some sin is greater then others. That is why we have venial sin and mortal sin.

And secondly if we repented, confessed the sin, and it went away forever as you claim, how can we continue to do some of our sins?

I respectfully have to disagree with what your pastor was teaching.

 

[rinnie]

You didn’t fail me!

I don’t know that I’m unwilling to accept it, but I am struggling with the implications of it all. It means no non-christians, extraordinarily few Prostestants, and a minority of Catholics go to heaven.

More than anything, it leaves me with a crisis of faith.

No Conor, not at all. I agree with you that it is not that you are unwilling to accept it, you do not truly understand it completely. There is a big difference. And God knows your heart.

But no one is saying will or willnot go to heaven. We can’t. Not even the Pope has ever said that. Only God knows the true heart of someone and can judge them.

Now if you said that you understand completely the teaching of confession, know it is the true word of God, but refuse to obey it, now you have passed judgement upon yourself. Do you see what I am saying?

There is a big difference from understanding and obeying the word of God, and not understanding it completely and therefore being able to obey it.

And a true teaching takes alot of Grace and Prayer to be understood. Like when we explain to you the true teaching according to the CC. Once it is revealed to you, its not like we ZAP the truth into you, and you automatically accept it.

God will work his grace and show you in time to accept it, But in God’s time not ours. ANd for some reason if that Grace is not given, only God will know why, and we trust his mercy,

But one thing to remember confession is wonderful gift from God, that helps your through your life. People seem to believe its like jail time or something. But the real jail time is the sin you carry around and have a hard time getting rid of.

 

[peace2u2]

Here is how I was taught. I believe we both agree that when we are in a state of mortal sin we have pretty much broke our bond with God for the moment. We have separated ourself from him.

Now this is something that always helped me. Remember Job, when his friends were in a state of mortal sin, Remember God told Jobs friends to have Job pray for them.

God says while Job my servant offers prayers for you I shall show him favour. In a way I thi nk it still works like that. When we confess mortal sin to a Priest, we are like Jobs friends we have angered God, and the Priest is the servant of God and prays for us also.

But here is another thing, that I really believe to be true. When you go to a Priest and admit that sin out loud isn’t it much harder then to just pray to God? See there is something different between holding sin in, and confessing in outward. When you let it out, its like you can truly let go of it. It no longer has a hold on you.

ITs like when you say it outward you got rid of it. How many people pay millions of dollars to Doctors and are not truly healed until they admit out loud what is truly bothering them. Once its out, its like you can truly let Go.

I think that is why God made it that way.

Good explanation. I was told basically the same thing. . . We must confess with our lips.
James 4:10
Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.

 

[rinnie]

Good explanation. I was told basically the same thing. . . We must confess with our lips.
James 4:10
Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.

Thats why they say confession is good for the Soul!

 

[Kristin234]

Georgia I am sorry to disagree with you, but none of this is taught in the CC.

To begin with the word of God tells you some sin is greater then others. That is why we have venial sin and mortal sin.

And secondly if we repented, confessed the sin, and it went away forever as you claim, how can we continue to do some of our sins?

I respectfully have to disagree with what your pastor was teaching.

That sin that you committed does go away forever. God’s Word tells us that when we ask for forgiveness for that sins He will forgive us and He will remember it no more. That does not mean that sin itself is gone and you will never be tempted with that sin ever again. Repeating that sin is another story.

I mean, technically isn’t sin really all the same? If you sin and don’t repent you will go to hell. The Bible tells us that anyone who is angry, lies, or even calls someone a fool can be sent to hell. What are the sins that aren’t so bad and do those sins not send someone to hell? I know there is a verse in the Bible that does say there are some sins that do not lead to death but what sins are those? If calling someone a fool can send you to hell then what won’t?

By the way, I think Georgia is Catholic and she meant in her last church she attended before she became Catholic.

 

[ignatius777]

I’m apprehensive to even ask for fear that your patience with me is growing thin, so why is the sacrament of confession a necessity?

Is it your goal to get to heaven? Is sin an element in your life that will assist you in attaining the goal of heaven? Scripture tells us that nothing impure will enter heaven. Is sin an indicator of purity? Consider these questions and then ask yourself the question you asked me concerning the necessity of confession.

 

[peace2u2]

You didn’t fail me!

I don’t know that I’m unwilling to accept it, but I am struggling with the implications of it all. It means no non-christians, extraordinarily few Prostestants, and a minority of Catholics go to heaven.

More than anything, it leaves me with a crisis of faith.

What is interesting is that there was a time in my life that I was unwilling to accept it also.

Parochial school would be teaching that Yes, we must confess our sins to God in the confessional yet at home, I would be hearing, no you don’t have to go to confession, we go straight to God. The parent doing this was a catholic convert who held on to a lot of “Protestant” teachings.

So I was truly confused until I started reading about The Sacrament of Confession, the why’s and what’s, etc. And there was nothing anyone could say that would change my heart, God’s Spirit did the changing and Praise God for that! I prayed for God to open my mind and my heart to His Truth about The Sacrament of Reconcilliation.

I also remember reading that the most hated place of the devil is in the Holy Eucharist and the second most hated place of the devil is in the Confessional. The reason is because the devil knows the True Presence of Jesus in both of these Sacraments and the devil does not want your soul to be healed. . . But, JESUS does!

Also, the Catholic Church does not make it hard for us to enter the confessional, we do by doing what the devil wants us to do, fear it.

These links helped me, I hope they help you:

ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/GUIDEPEN.HTM

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm

catholicyouthministry.com/wp-content/files/free/ExaminationofConscience.pdf

catholicscomehome.org/

Peace 2U

 

[rinnie]

That sin that you committed does go away forever. God’s Word tells us that when we ask for forgiveness for that sins He will forgive us and He will remember it no more. That does not mean that sin itself is gone and you will never be tempted with that sin ever again. Repeating that sin is another story.

I mean, technically isn’t sin really all the same? If you sin and don’t repent you will go to hell. The Bible tells us that anyone who is angry, lies, or even calls someone a fool can be sent to hell. What are the sins that aren’t so bad and do those sins not send someone to hell? I know there is a verse in the Bible that does say there are some sins that do not lead to death but what sins are those? If calling someone a fool can send you to hell then what won’t?

By the way, I think Georgia is Catholic and she meant in her last church she attended before she became Catholic.

No mortal sin requires full knowlede and complete consent.

Venial sin weakens chairity. But does not result in the loss of sanctifying grace.

Anotherwards to be more clear, Mortal sin you are no longer in the state of Grace from God. Venial means you are still in a state of grace but are in danger of losing it.

 

[rinnie]

That sin that you committed does go away forever. God’s Word tells us that when we ask for forgiveness for that sins He will forgive us and He will remember it no more. That does not mean that sin itself is gone and you will never be tempted with that sin ever again. Repeating that sin is another story.

I mean, technically isn’t sin really all the same? If you sin and don’t repent you will go to hell. The Bible tells us that anyone who is angry, lies, or even calls someone a fool can be sent to hell. What are the sins that aren’t so bad and do those sins not send someone to hell? I know there is a verse in the Bible that does say there are some sins that do not lead to death but what sins are those? If calling someone a fool can send you to hell then what won’t?

By the way, I think Georgia is Catholic and she meant in her last church she attended before she became Catholic.

Here is the difference, If I go to confession and repent and confess my sin, Is it forgiven? Yes.

But repentance is not over yet. For some people repentance is the rest of their lives.

Like lets say a person is addicted to drinking. That is their sin, They put it above God and all others.

They go and confess that sin, Is the sin over are they cured of the sin?

No, they must fight the need and the want of that sin for the rest of their lives. The sin is not fully gone until the want and the need is over.

For many they can die with the want and need of the sin still in them. Many can be lucky to rid themself completely, God told us its possible.

He said there is no sin greater then his grace to overcome it.

But many will still have to go to purgatory to rid themself of every feeling the need or want of that sin. Or any sin.

That is why we as Catholic believe many will have to undergo Purgatory.

See even drinking for some that has become a sin, feels a certain need, Maybe the buzz or feeling of not caring. Whatever it is. All sin fills a need we want to either fill or escape.

You have to be completely rid of the good you get out of that sin, Do you see what I am saying. Like when you get drunk you are getting something out of it.

There is always somekind of instant reward in sin, Even though it can destroy you.

Like anger, say you get even. Its still the need to get even. or the want to. We have to be free of all human response to sin, Very few can do that in this world.

Even if you don’t get even when you have the chance to, do you still remember how good it would make you feel if you did. You still remember the instant reward.

Does this make sense to you?