Non-Catholics and Salvation

[stasiu1982]

Can somebody who isn’t Catholic have salvation? For example, somebody who shares Catholic values and stands up for them but is a Protestant or an atheist/agnostic. I ask because there are many good people in this world, but not all are Catholic.

Take somebody like Ronald Reagan, who is regarded as having shared many Catholic values and standing up for them, but was not himself a Catholic - What does Catholic teaching say with regards to this?

 

[Joe_5859]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. [336]

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. [337]

CCC 848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” [338]

[335] Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21L 3,1169; De unit.L 4,509-536.
[336] LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.
[337] LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.
[338] AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16.

 

[kristanl]

Even though they dont have the “full” communion of the Church, we believe that some will go to heaven.
We cant play God because we dont know what he wants, but I’m sure you know of many Protestans that you would like to see in Heaven I guess when the Cathechism says for those who do not know about the Church, I think this can apply to people who have been lied about what the Church really teaches, as some may have no reason to do research.

I dont know about athiests and agnostics though, as they may not believe in God and that is breaking the first commandment.

 

[stasiu1982]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. [336]

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. [337]

CCC 848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” [338]

[335] Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21L 3,1169; De unit.L 4,509-536.
[336] LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.
[337] LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.
[338] AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16.

So, if somebody isn’t a Catholic it doesn’t matter whether they do good or bad deeds as they still can’t have salvation?

 

[Joe_5859]

So, if somebody isn’t a Catholic it doesn’t matter whether they do good or bad deeds as they still can’t have salvation?

No, it means that if someone is not a card-carrying member of the Catholic Church, they might still be saved, but if they are, it is through the Church that they are saved.

This issue comes up quite frequently (and for good reason). Basically, we are trying to avoid the two extremes:

1. 
   *]On the one hand, we don’t want people to be uncharitable or judgmental in assuming they know that all non-Catholics are condemned to hell.
   *]But on the other hand, we don’t want to be lax and shirk our responsibility to evangelize because “it doesn’t really matter what religion you belong to as long as you’re a ‘good person’.”
   
   In other words, if you’re looking for a sure, tried-and-true path to salvation, look no further than the Catholic Church. However, we acknowledge that others might also be saved through ways known to God alone.
   
   It’s similar to the Catholic teaching on Baptism: “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments” (CCC 1257).

 

[stasiu1982]

No, it means that if someone is not a card-carrying member of the Catholic Church, they might still be saved, but if they are, it is through the Church that they are saved.

Hmm, then how come the section from the Catechism is titled “Outside the Church there is no salvation” - Shouldn’t it be titled “Outside the Church salvation is still possible” or something along those lines?

According to my reading of the section of the Catechism that you posted, unless you are not Catholic because you haven’t heard the message of the Church then you can’t have salvation. I’m quite confused…

 

[Tartini]

I have had many a discussion over this with my protestant acquaintances. Many seem confused at the statement “No Salvation outside the Catholic Church” when I make the statement to them. Often the Turth is impossible to accept when error has already been introduced and maintained for a given length of time. Many become very angry, and that often leads to more animosity towards Catholicism within their view. I have to usually clarify my statement that one, after knowing of the Church (which is Christ) and rejects the Truth (which is Christ, who founded the Church) is in danger of damnation. There is no other option here (which is what protestant believe they are practicing). That is what is being said here:

CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church, which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body, which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. **Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. [336]**Obviously, this statement, when seriously considered, backs up the statement of “No Salvation outside the Catholic Church”.

Of course, one cannot know the workings or mind of God. Christ founded ONE Church and gave us all the answers, so we can be very certain that what we say is the truth, without any wavering whatsoever.We are responsible to teach them Truth and if they are able to legitimately deny (though invincible ignorance) than they are not at fault. The idea of invincible ignorance would usually apply to an individual who may be mentally retarded or someone who has never heard of Christ. It cannot be a situation where one can say* “to each his own”* as that undermines the very existence of the Church Herself. It would entail that protestantism is actually correct in its heresy.

 

[Joe_5859]

Hmm, then how come the section from the Catechism is titled “Outside the Church there is no salvation” - Shouldn’t it be titled “Outside the Church salvation is still possible” or something along those lines?

According to my reading of the section of the Catechism that you posted, unless you are not Catholic because you haven’t heard the message of the Church then you can’t have salvation. I’m quite confused…

I know, it can be confusing. Allow me to try again.

The statement “Outside the Church there is no salvation” (Latin: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus) is definitive Church teaching. It goes back to St. Cyprian in the third century and was used definitively at the Fourth Lateran Council in the thirteenth century. It will not change. That’s why the Catechism retains that language. Historically speaking, many have used that teaching to incorrectly assert that only practicing Catholics can get to heaven. The Catechism attempts to clarify what the statement really means.

Look at what the CCC says: “Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body”.

So it’s not that visible membership in the Catholic Church is necessarily required. But if a non-Catholic is saved, it is still through the Church.

In other words, the statement does not mean that “Outside of visible membership to the Church, there is no salvation.” Rather, it means that “One is not saved apart from the action of the Church.”

If you think about it, it makes sense. Jesus said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one gets to the Father but through Him (see John 14:6). So no one is saved apart from the action of Christ (whether they are aware of it on earth or not). And the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ here on earth (see 1 Corinthians 12:12-27). So, if no one is saved apart from Christ, and the Church is the Body of Christ here on earth, then no one is saved apart from the Church.

What all this means practically is that the only way I would recommend someone be saved is by becoming Catholic. I would never tell someone that they’re fine just where they’re at because it doesn’t really matter what religion they practice as long as they’re a “good person.” However, I also would never judge the state of anyone’s soul. I would not presume to say that anyone is in hell.

I think sometimes God wants to keep us confused so that we don’t get lax nor judgmental.

 

[stasiu1982]

I know, it can be confusing. Allow me to try again.

The statement “Outside the Church there is no salvation” (Latin: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus) is definitive Church teaching. It goes back to St. Cyprian in the third century and was used definitively at the Fourth Lateran Council in the thirteenth century. It will not change. That’s why the Catechism retains that language. Historically speaking, many have used that teaching to incorrectly assert that only practicing Catholics can get to heaven. The Catechism attempts to clarify what the statement really means.

Look at what the CCC says: “Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body”.

So it’s not that visible membership in the Catholic Church is necessarily required. But if a non-Catholic is saved, it is still through the Church.

In other words, the statement does not mean that “Outside of visible membership to the Church, there is no salvation.” Rather, it means that “One is not saved apart from the action of the Church.”

If you think about it, it makes sense. Jesus said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one gets to the Father but through Him (see John 14:6). So no one is saved apart from the action of Christ (whether they are aware of it on earth or not). And the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ here on earth (see 1 Corinthians 12:12-27). So, if no one is saved apart from Christ, and the Church is the Body of Christ here on earth, then no one is saved apart from the Church.

What all this means practically is that the only way I would recommend someone be saved is by becoming Catholic. I would never tell someone that they’re fine just where they’re at because it doesn’t really matter what religion they practice as long as they’re a “good person.” However, I also would never judge the state of anyone’s soul. I would not presume to say that anyone is in hell.

I think sometimes God wants to keep us confused so that we don’t get lax nor judgmental.

Ah ok, now I understand - Thanks for the explanation!

 

[stasiu1982]

I know, it can be confusing. Allow me to try again.

The statement “Outside the Church there is no salvation” (Latin: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus) is definitive Church teaching. It goes back to St. Cyprian in the third century and was used definitively at the Fourth Lateran Council in the thirteenth century. It will not change. That’s why the Catechism retains that language. Historically speaking, many have used that teaching to incorrectly assert that only practicing Catholics can get to heaven. The Catechism attempts to clarify what the statement really means.

Look at what the CCC says: “Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body”.

So it’s not that visible membership in the Catholic Church is necessarily required. But if a non-Catholic is saved, it is still through the Church.

In other words, the statement does not mean that “Outside of visible membership to the Church, there is no salvation.” Rather, it means that “One is not saved apart from the action of the Church.”

If you think about it, it makes sense. Jesus said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one gets to the Father but through Him (see John 14:6). So no one is saved apart from the action of Christ (whether they are aware of it on earth or not). And the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ here on earth (see 1 Corinthians 12:12-27). So, if no one is saved apart from Christ, and the Church is the Body of Christ here on earth, then no one is saved apart from the Church.

What all this means practically is that the only way I would recommend someone be saved is by becoming Catholic. I would never tell someone that they’re fine just where they’re at because it doesn’t really matter what religion they practice as long as they’re a “good person.” However, I also would never judge the state of anyone’s soul. I would not presume to say that anyone is in hell.

I think sometimes God wants to keep us confused so that we don’t get lax nor judgmental.

Thanks, I understand that aspect now. But still, doesn’t the Catechism say “He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door.” - Wouldn’t that mean that without Catholic Baptism somebody can’t have salvation (unless they don’t know about the Church)?

 

[Drawmack]

Can somebody who isn’t Catholic have salvation? For example, somebody who shares Catholic values and stands up for them but is a Protestant or an atheist/agnostic. I ask because there are many good people in this world, but not all are Catholic.

Take somebody like Ronald Reagan, who is regarded as having shared many Catholic values and standing up for them, but was not himself a Catholic - What does Catholic teaching say with regards to this?

Read your Catechism man

 

[Joe_5859]

Thanks, I understand that aspect now. But still, doesn’t the Catechism say “He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door.” - Wouldn’t that mean that without Catholic Baptism somebody can’t have salvation (unless they don’t know about the Church)?

The Catechism also says “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments” (CCC 1257). In other words, Baptism and faith in Christ is the only way we know we can be saved. It is possible that God can work outside of the Sacrament of Baptism (because He’s God, after all), but we don’t know for sure that He will because He has not revealed that to us.

Knowing what we know about how merciful God is, it seems reasonable that God would also save those who did not know Him through no fault of their own but would have followed Him had they been adequately evangelized. But God simply hasn’t told us. And for good reason, I think. If He told us definitively that it was possible to be saved without Baptism or without joining the Catholic Church, we would get lazy and approach religion with a “they’re-all-basically-the-same” mentality. If He told us definitively that it was not possible to be saved without Baptism or without joining the Catholic Church, we would become prideful and judgmental.

Also, the “unless-they-don’t-know-about-the-Church” exception probably includes more people than simply those indigenous tribes that have not heard of Christianity. Is someone who is raised by anti-Catholic parents and ingrained with deep anti-Catholic prejudices fully responsible for the fact that they stay far, far away from the Catholic Church? Could we really say that such a person “knows” about the Church?

We’re in a different place than the early Christians because we’re really in a post-Christian world. We have many, many people who know of the Church, but they don’t really know the Church. Will they be responsible for the fact that cultural stereotypes kept them away from the Church? Only God knows.