Non-Catholics and the Mother of God

[prochrist1]

Mary is to be honored yes but not to the point of where Catholics have appointed her

**“Queen of Heaven”, “Mother of God”, “Mother of the Church”, the “Co-Redemptrix”, and the “Mediatrix of all graces.” **

Mind you those terms where not heard of even by the early church fathers, one wonders…

 

[JonNC]

Mary is to be honored yes but not to the point of where Catholics have appointed her

**“Queen of Heaven”, “Mother of God”, “Mother of the Church”, the “Co-Redemptrix”, and the “Mediatrix of all graces.” **

Mind you those terms where not heard of even by the early church fathers, one wonders…

Mother of God, God bearer (Holy Theotokos) most certainly was. The Blessed Virgin was recognized as such in the Third Ecumenical Council held at Ephesus in 431.

Jon

 

[prochrist1]

After 431 AD yes!

Not earlier…

 

[Good_Fella]

No she isn’t just like any other woman. God chose her for a reason. She was highly favored by God. She did everything God commanded her to do and told others to do the same. She is someone that everyone should aspire to be like. When I say she is like everyone else I mean that she also needed a savior as she herself said her spirit rejoiced in God her savior.

Unfortunately there are some Protestants who think that we Catholics believe Mary was in no need of the Saviour because we embrace the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. But the Church finally resolved this problem in the period of controversy among Catholic theologians, including Thomas Aquinas, by the Middle Ages thanks to the brilliant theological mind of Blessed John Duns Scotus, a Doctor of the Church. He taught that Mary was granted the greatest form of redemption by being preserved free from contracting the stain of original sin upon the sanctification of her soul at the first instant it was fashioned by God in view of the merits of her divine Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and not by any merit of her own. Moreover, in consequence of this singular privilege, Mary did not inherit a fallen and wounded human nature like ours, although she was subject to the debt of the sin of Adam, which is why our heavenly Father had to intervene with his infused grace. She was created so that she would not want to commit any personal sins of her own against God by the efficacy of his grace, since she was predestined to be the Mother of our Lord (Meter tou Kurio) (Lk 1:43). Thus Mary could exclaim, “My soul proclaims the glory of the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my saviour, for he has looked upon the lowliness of his handmaiden” (Lk 1:46-47).

Mary is not exactly like everyone else, for she holds a pre-eminent place among all baptized Christians in the divine order of grace by virtue of her divine maternity. The redeeming grace she received at the first instant of her conception preserved her from contracting original sin, whereas in our case, the reedeeming sanctifying grace we receive when baptized cleanses us from the sin that has been incurred. Mary’s initial sanctification in her mother’s womb has been described as preservative, while our initial sanctification and reconciliation with God through the sacrament of Baptism is regarded as curative. The manner of the Father’s intervention through the Holy Spirit differs between Mary and us Christians so immeasurably. Indeed, Mary was redeemed in the most perfect and excellent fashion in light of her Son’s divine perfection and radiance in his sacred humanity. She had to be made worthy enough to be the mother of God’s Only-begotten Son, the divne Word incarnate. It is not because of who Mary is, but because of who her Son is that the Father highly favoured her with this unique privilege. At the Annunciation, the angel Gabriel greeted Mary in deferential recognition of her pure state and maternal election. And so he refrained from addressing her by name: “Hail, O favoured one (Chaire kecharitomene). The Lord is with you” (Lk 1:28).

Rejoice heartily, O daughter Zion,
shout for joy, O daughter Jerusalem!
See, your King shall come to you;
a just saviour is he.
Zechariah 9, 9

But you, O Lord, will arise and have compassion on Zion,
for it is time to show favour to her;
the appointed time has come.
Psalm 102, 13

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that his tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from putridity and corruption.”
St. Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A,D. 235)

PAX :heaven:

 

[GaryTaylor]

Wow. I am a part of a non denominational I guess you can say fundamentalist church and we definitely do not reject the divinity of Christ!

You asked a question and I responded as to why many people believe that it is Israel and not Mary. There is no need to be rude. I am starting to agree with a poster on here who said many Catholics on here have that “I am right you are wrong” mentality and it comes off as very arrogant. There are other ways you could say it without coming off so rude.

Your reading me incorrectly and far to much into it. I’m simply commenting on the generalization you present above when you say “Protestant”. And then you link a “messianic jewish” sight to validate what “Protestant’s” believe? Then I correctly stated…They Believe many different concepts in truth of faith. You “assumed” I was talking about “your” faith. Where did I say “your” faith?

I also believe its an error to correlate what “messianic Jews” believe opposed to Traditional Judaism. They so obviously do not believe this theory.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you?

Peace

 

[EzraJacob]

From the Formula of Concord:

She is honored and held in high esteem by Lutherans. We know that she is inheaven with her son, and that she prays for us, the Church Militant, with the rest of the saints in Heaven. She is, as Luther said, “highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. **Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.”
**
Jon

Is that what protestants believe the Catholics do? Id like to point you to DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH; LUMEN GENTIUM

III. On the Blessed Virgin and the Church

1. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, “for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all”.(298) The** maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power.** For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Mary is to be honored yes but not to the point of where Catholics have appointed her

**“Queen of Heaven”, “Mother of God”, “Mother of the Church”, the “Co-Redemptrix”, and the “Mediatrix of all graces.” **

Mind you those terms where not heard of even by the early church fathers, one wonders…

And this is according to…you or who? And what brings you to the conclusion your right?

God Bless, Gary

 

[JonNC]

Is that what protestants believe the Catholics do? Id like to point you to DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH; LUMEN GENTIUM

I think many protestants do think that, yes. And in the time of the writing, it was true among many in the laity. I think today, the CC is quite clear that this isn’t the case, and I accept what she says is true.

Jon

 

[AmateurPianist]

Is she honored? Is she treated as your mother like Jesus told us to do? And if not, why? Is she just another women? Even though she was entrusted to give birth and care for our beloved Savior.

What exactly is the point of view and belief of the Blessed Mother of God in non-Catholic denominations?

To answer your questions…

Mary would be regarded as a “hero of the faith” as would Abraham, Moses, Peter, and Paul would be. She was after all the mother of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

If she is slighted it would only be because of the relative lack of references to her in Scripture.

As far as other issues in this thread.

• No she is not my mother
• We do not use the term “Mother of God”. However logically she would be the “Mother of God the Son Incarnate”. I personally do not object to the phrase “Mother of God” other than a nitpick about it being ambiguous.
• We do not necessarily believe she had no sexual relationships her entire life, never sinned, or was ascended into heaven. I personally however find these beliefs less offensive than some 50 year old nice, creative ideas that are floating around the church.
• I have no idea who the women in Revelations represents. I am not that smart.

 

[JonNC]

• We do not use the term “Mother of God”. However logically she would be the “Mother of God the Son Incarnate”. I personally do not object to the phrase “Mother of God” other than a nitpick about it being ambiguous.

Well, yes. To be clear, she is the Mother of God Incarnate. I don’t believe anyone teaches otherwise. Obviously, she is not the Mother of God Eternal.

Jon

 

[Kristin234]

Your reading me incorrectly and far to much into it. I’m simply commenting on the generalization you present above when you say “Protestant”. And then you link a “messianic jewish” sight to validate what “Protestant’s” believe? Then I correctly stated…They Believe many different concepts in truth of faith. You “assumed” I was talking about “your” faith. Where did I say “your” faith?

I also believe its an error to correlate what “messianic Jews” believe opposed to Traditional Judaism. They so obviously do not believe this theory.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you?

Peace

Ok I’m sorry I think we both just misunderstood each other.

When I say many Protestants I mean many Protestants as in people specifically not a whole denomination. I have heard Evangelicals, Baptists, and even a Lutheran who believe that that chapter in Revelations is about Israel. I was just answering why people believe it to be Israel and not Mary. I wasn’t talking about Messianic Judaism or any denomination in general.

 

[JonNC]

Ok I’m sorry I think we both just misunderstood each other.

When I say many Protestants I mean many Protestants as in people specifically not a whole denomination. I have heard Evangelicals, Baptists, and even a Lutheran who believe that that chapter in Revelations is about Israel. I was just answering why people believe it to be Israel and not Mary. I wasn’t talking about Messianic Judaism or any denomination in general.

Well, Lutherans view Christ as the new Israel.

Jon

 

[Good_Fella]

Mary is to be honored yes but not to the point of where Catholics have appointed her

**“Queen of Heaven”, “Mother of God”, “Mother of the Church”, the “Co-Redemptrix”, and the “Mediatrix of all graces.” **

Mind you those terms where not heard of even by the early church fathers, one wonders…

1. Mary, Queen of Heaven

"Hail, O highly favoured one!" Chaire kecharitomene]
Luke 1, 28

“Hail, king of the Jews!” Chaire basileus ton ioudaion]
John 19, 3

I will set upon the throne the fruit of your body.
Psalm 132, 11

“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Luke 1, 42

"It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our* Queen***. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord Good Master who was born of you. For this reason you are called ‘full of grace.’"
St. Athanasius, the Marian Prayer (d. A.D. 373)

“Hail, our desirable gladness; Hail, O rejoicing of the Churches; Hail, O name that breathes out sweetness; Hail, face that radiates divinity and grace; Hail, most venerable memory!”
St.Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily 4:3 (ante A.D. 446)

2. Mary, Mother of the Church

When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold your son." Then he said to the** disciple**, “Behold your mother.”
John 19, 26-27

Then the dragon became angry with the** woman** and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring**, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus**.
Revelation 12, 17

God said to the serpent, “I will put enmity between you and the** woman**, and between your offspring and her offspring.”
Genesis 3, 15

And Zion shall be called “Mother”,
for all shall be her children.
Psalm 87, 5

"I love to call her [Mary] the Church, this mother, when alone, had not milk, because alone she was not a woman. But she is once virgin and mother - - pure as a virgin and loving as a mother. And calling her children to her, she nurses them with holy milk, viz., with the Word for childhood."
St. Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 1:6 (A,D, 202)

“Eve was called the mother of the living…after the fall this title was given to her. True it is…the whole race of man upon earth was born from Eve, but in reality it is from Mary the Life was truly born to the world. So that by giving birth to the Living One, Mary became the mother of all the living.”
St. Epiphanius, Against Eighty Heresies, 78,9 (inter A.D. 374-77)

3. Mary, co-Redemptrix

Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted, and you yourself a sword shall pierce so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."
Luke 2, 35

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the Church.
Colossians 1, 24

If we are afflicted, it is for your encouragement and** salvation**.
2 Corinthians 1, 6

By charity and faith guilt is expiated.
Proverbs 16, 6

“By disobeying, Eve became the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race.In the same way Mary…by obeying became…the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race.”
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 (c.A.D. 180)

“She engendered redemption for humanity, she was carrying in her womb the remission of sin.”
St. Ambrose, De Mysteriis lll, 13 (c.A.D. 387)

4. Mary, Mediatrix of Grace

When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
John 2, 3

Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them saying, “Drink from it all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.”
Matthew 26, 27-28

Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory. For the wedding day of the lamb has come, his bride has made herself ready. Blessed are those who have been called to the wedding feast of the Lamb.
Revelation 19, 7,9

You have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for your benefit.
Ephesians 3, 2

Every man has received grace, ministering the same to one another: as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1 Peter 4, 10

“Let us not be astonished that the Lord, who came to save the world, began his work in Mary, so that she, by whom the salvation of all was being readied, would be the first to receive from her own child its fruits.”
St. Ambrose, Exposition of the Gospel of Luke ll, 17 (A.D.387)

“With the Mediator you are the Mediatrix of the entire world.”
St. Ephraem, Syri opera graeca et latine, v.3 (A.D. 373)

PAX :harp:

 

[Kristin234]

Good Fella,

Mary is highly favored! She was definitely blessed and of course she was full of grace! How do those verses prove she is queen of heaven? All it shows to me is that God favored her and she was blessed enough to be able to carry and give birth to Jesus Christ.

You quoted Jesus telling the disciple “This is your mother.” Well, what do you think about this verse? As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” (Luke 11:27,28)

Or:He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

By the way, I am honestly curious as to what Catholics think about the above verses. I’m not trying to start an argument or anything.

I’m confused. How does Colossians 1:24 prove that Marys is co-Redemptrix? Paul is the one who wrote that. In all the Bibles I have the chapter for that is called “Paul’s labor for the church.” And even if that was about Mary how would that prove she is indeed co-Redemptrix?

Philippians 1:29 says all who follow Christ will suffer for his sake. “For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him.”

By the way, quoting what other Catholics said about Mary being co-Redemptrix, Mother of the Church, or queen of heaven isn’t going to prove anything to non-Catholics. That’s like me going up to an atheist and saying Jesus is God because the Bible says so. If they don’t believe the Bible is true then they wont believe Jesus is God.

 

[prochrist1]

The bible is pretty clear on salvation, how to live a healthy life, umm lets see how to forgive, how to treat one another. But those verses that Good Fella posted ? I’ve read them over and over and it doesn’t add up, if you where to show those verses to anyone not Catholic it doesn’t say anywhere Mary is what is claimed, I mean no disrespect.

The notion that the early Church fathers I mean not the ones after 400 AD, since for me at least I stick to what the early Christians believed, you will find not ONE made such claim of Mary.

The only possible way we non Catholics can accept these dogmas is to believe in the Roman Catholic claim of apostolic succession and the primacy of the Pope, thus him being “God’s” appointed head here on earth can make such declarations.

 

[SteveGC]

The only possible way we non Catholics can accept these dogmas is to believe in the Roman Catholic claim of apostolic succession and the primacy of the Pope, thus him being “God’s” appointed head here on earth can make such declarations.

That may be true for some non-Catholics. It was for me 5 years ago, when I came to understand the history of the Church.

But for other converts, they will tell you that an understanding and acceptance of apostolic succession came after they became convinced of individual doctrines that they once felt were mythical. Many do this through an honest, open and comprehensive study of the Catholic Catechism, and it’s cohesive unity with Scripture. Many say it is one of the best Bible studies in existence.

Mary does tend to be one of the last doctrinal areas that converts embrace, and dare I say, a few converts still have a very hard time accepting them (but they do in faith). For me, Mary was the first Catholic dogma I became convinced of after I began to embrace apostolic succession. Her role in salvation history as the Catholic Church teaches it makes absolutely perfect and wonderful sense to me. Little did I expect she would be one of the best benefits of embracing Catholicism.

Peace.

 

[Good_Fella]

Good Fella, Mary is highly favored! She was definitely blessed and of course she was full of grace! How do those verses prove she is queen of heaven? All it shows to me is that God favored her and she was blessed enough to be able to carry and give birth to Jesus Christ.

But you, Bethlehem-Ephratha too small to be among the clans of Judah, From you shall come forth for me one who is to be the ruler in Israel; Whose origin is from of old, from ancient times.
Micah 5, 1

Kristin, in the historic period of ancient Israel there stood a second throne next to the one occupied by the king. This throne at his right was not occupied by any of the king’s wives, but by his mother. The position of the queen mother (gebirah) was a privileged one of the highest honour and authority for a woman in the kingdom of Judah. The queen mother was an extremely powerful and influential figure in ancient Jewish culture; she directed all domestic matters in connection with the royal household of David and had the final word among all the royal female members in the palace, including the king’s wives. Unlike the queen mother, the king’s spouses were not granted the prerogatives of a counselor and an advocate, but were merely assigned the primary task of bearing and raising the king’s children, notably his sons and potential heirs to the throne. The queen mother alone acted as advisor to her son and as advocate to the people. Any royal subject who had a petition to present or sought an audience with the king was formally expected to approach him through the patronage of his mother and by her mediation. This was the case when Adonijah sought a high-ranking bride from his step-brother King Solomon (1 Kgs 2:19-21). Now on this occasion, Bathsheba acted purely out of formality while knowing that her son would refuse her request; for they both suspected the man’s motive was hostile to the king’s reign. Anyway, the gebirah was the most important and highly respected woman in the kingdom of Judah, and she wielded the greatest influence over the king (Ps 45: 12,17). Some Catholics have traditionally believed that Solomon’s gesture of placing his mother’s throne at the right of his foreshadows the Assumption of Mary and her Coronation in heaven where she acts as our queen and advocate alongside the throne of her Son in the divine order of grace as decreed by our heavenly Father (Mk 10:40).

They were overjoyed at seeing the star, and on entering the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him homage.
Matthew 2, 10-11

It does appear that the Judeo-Christians of the church in Palestine invoked Mary as an ancient type of gebirah and saw the fulfillment of this royal institution in her divine maternity (Lk 1:30-33). Certainly Matthew did not necessarily have to record Mary’s presence in the house when the Magi arrived to see Jesus. The evangelist could just as well have written “and on entering the house, they saw the child, prostrated themselves, and did him homage”. I doubt Matthew was preoccupied with the literary task of providing more detail to the scene as any typical author of a story would be, considering he was inspired to write by the Holy Spirit, who is the principal Author of the sacred text for the purpose of revealing the truth of a divine mystery. On the contrary, he is affirming what the Jewish Christians had already traditionally perceived of Mary in the economy of salvation, and so he is emphasizing the fact that the Magi saw Mary together with Jesus in her rightful place. “The Lord is with you” (Lk 1:28). We can be sure that the faithful in Palestine would expect the three kings to first approach our Lord’s mother in their quest to gain access to the king and pay homage to him. The Judaic-Christians would have been offended just by the thought of the Magi dismissing Mary’s maternal right and circumventing her priviliged authority. Such indifference on their part would be an affront to Mary’s royal dignity. It must be through the King’s Mother that the three kings gain an audience with the king and present their gifts to him to win his favour most effectively.

At your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir.
Psalm 45,

To be continued. :harp:

 

[Good_Fella]

Good Fella,

Mary is highly favored! She was definitely blessed and of course she was full of grace! How do those verses prove she is queen of heaven? All it shows to me is that God favored her and she was blessed enough to be able to carry and give birth to Jesus Christ.

To continue.

Kristin, the Judeo-Christians in Palestine unquestionably acknowledged Mary’s royal personage and privileges by right of her divine motherhood in tune with their ancestral religious sensibilities and in keeping with their past heritage. Even today Jews who convert to Christianity regard their newly acquired faith as a fulfillment of their Judaic one. They do not feel that they have embraced an entirely new and different religion. So the first Christian converts held the mother of their Lord in the highest esteem, as someone whose patronage must not be ignored, if they ever hoped to have a better chance of receiving the King’s favour and having their petitions heard in supplication for the signal graces they sought to acquire. Their defferential attitude is expressed in the words of Mary’s cousin Elizabeth: "How does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me" (Lk 1:43)? Our Lady’s advocacy and mediation of divine grace were prerogatives of hers treasured by the first Christian community, whose members felt honoured that the mother of their Lord should condescend to them by being constantly attentive to their humble supplications and pleading on their behalf before her Son in heaven.

After all, Mary did gain much merit in the eyes of God for having freely consented to be the mother of his Only-begotten Son by her act of faith working through love (Gal 5:5-6), He who is the Source of all grace. By now the faithful would have been familiar with the letter written by the apostle James (5:16):* The prayers of the righteous avail much*. And who could be more righteous before God other than the woman who was by then typified as the pure and undefiled ark of the Covenant as illustrated in Luke’s Gospel in the Visitation narrative? The nascent Christian perception of Mary as Dispensatrix of grace materializes in the Gospel of Luke (1:44): “For when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the child in my womb leaped for joy.” It was believed that John the Baptist was sanctified by the grace of God in his mother’s womb indirectly through Mary’s mediation; all the graces we receive that originate from the Lord must pass through her by virtue of her divine maternity and acquired merits in the system of grace. The sound of her voice was what caused the infant John to leap in his mother’s womb, meaning that Mary had been perceived as a physical instrument for the channeling of diivne grace which comes from her Son. The dictum “To Jesus through Mary” is nowhere better illustrated in the New Testament than it is in this single verse. The entire spectrum of the principle of her mediation is capsulized here. God hears the sound of Mary’s prayers as they are joined with our own.

As I alluded to above, Mary’s royal maternal dignity was clearly affirmed by the angel Gabriel when he appeared to her and greeted the Lord’s handmaid in acclamation of her queenship: “Hail, O favoured one!” Chaire kecharitomene] (Lk 1:28). In ancient time this form of salutation (Hail / Chaire) was reserved for addressing persons of royal standing. Only on one other occasion is this formal expression used in the New Testament, and that is when the Roman soldiers sarcastically mock Jesus by placing a crown of thorns on his head and a reed in his hand because they had heard he was the king of the Jews (Jn 19:3). Hence, Scripture confirms this Marian tradition of the historic Christian faith as authentic and apostolic. Mary is the Queen Mother (Gebirah) of the New Dispensation because her divine Son is King (Melech).

Here we should note that in the Judaic tradition Sarah is regarded as having foreshadowed the gebirah of the kingdom of Judah. Originally her name was Sarai, but God commanded her husband Abraham to call her Sarah from now on (Gen 17:15-16). In ancient Hebrew Sarai means “princess” and Sarah means “exalted princess”. I am sure we agree that a princess is exalted by becoming a queen. Thus ultimately Sarah, Matriarch of the Old Covenant, prefigures Mary, Matriarch of the New Covenant, while Sarah’s only son Isaac prefigures Mary’s only son Jesus, whose immolation for the remission of sins is prophetically veiled in Abraham’s call from God to sacrifice his only beloved son of promise (Gen 22:2). In faith Mary fulfilled what Abraham was called to do when she presented the infant Jesus in the temple and consecrated her only beloved Son to God as an offering of atonement for the sins of the world (Lk 2:22-39). As the Queen Mother of the kingdom of heaven, Mary interceded on our behalf and helped us regain the grace our original parents had forfeited for us by accepting the Father’s will and giving back the Son, however sorrowful it was for her. She surely made satisfaction for Eve’s transgression by her faith and obedience, without which the Word would not have become flesh and dwell among us. Our* Advocata* made a tremendous contribution to our salvation through personal sacrifice and interior suffering. “Hail, O desirable gladness!”

“From early times Christians have believed that she of whom was born the Son of the Most High received privileges of grace above all other beings created by God. And when Christians reflected on the intimate connection between the mother and her son, they readily acknowledged the supreme royal dignity of the Mother of God.”
Pope Pius Xll, Ad Caeli Reginan

PAX :heaven:

 

[Rahn]

Why would you like to think its Israel?

Peace

I think your question is a bit off-base. I don’t think it’s a question of wanting to believe anything, it’s more a question of reading the Word of God and earnestly desiring, through the help of the Holy Spirit, to understand it.

I’ve read Revelation 12, and I don’t believe the reference is to Mary. Here is where I see problems with that interpretation:

Revelation 12.1:
“And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars”

The 12 stars most likely fit the 12 tribes of Israel.

and, mostly, Revelation 12.6:

“and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days”

I cannot find a context where this could possibly refer to Mary.

 

[exnihilo]

The notion that the early Church fathers I mean not the ones after 400 AD, since for me at least I stick to what the early Christians believed, you will find not ONE made such claim of Mary.

I dont want to express an opinion about how to view Mary. But I do want to point out that you have to be careful when looking at history and concluding that because you dont find something it does not exist.

A general principle is that absence of evidence is not evidence. This principle needs to be more fully understood to mean absence of evidence is not evidence, unless you expect the evidence to exist.

I mention this because the absence of evidence argument is used against Christianity as a whole. Deniers have frequently argued that because something historical has not been found in the non-Biblical record it means it did not exist.

A good example is King Belshazzar. At one time only the Book of Daniel claimed there was such a king. Deniers made the claim that because no evidence of such a king existed outside of Daniel there was no such king and the Bible was untrustworthy. In, I believe, the last century archeologists discovered an artifact that mentioned this king thus showing the Bible to be correct and the deniers wrong.

When looking at history we always have to keep in mind that we never have the complete picture. Concerning Mary it could be that folks had these beliefs but did not write them down. It could be that it was written down but the writing did not survive.