Non Catholics--any purpose for penance?

[whatevergirl]

This is directed more to Protestants, but if you are of another faith, please feel free to chime in with your comments.

I ask this, because if I were a Protestant, and I believe in ‘once saved, always saved,’ (no matter my moral state in life, as I have heard many Baptists and Evangelical Christians say that no matter what we do, we ‘have eternal security’) would I see a need for penance for my earthly sins? Once you ‘confess’ your sins to God, do you see a need for penance? Is there anything further that you do after confession, as Catholics, we have various forms of penance?

To Catholics–is penance necessary for our reconciliation to God, after we have sinned, or is this designed to help us personally? (or both)

Look forward to your replies.

 

[DirkF15]

To answer the question directed at Catholics: I would say that penance serves both reconciliation and our personal benefit.
St. Irenaeus said that “the glory of God is man fully alive.” This is confirmed in Jesus’ words when He said that He had come to give life and give it to the full (John 10:10).
As Catholics, we believe that the personal growth of man and his reconciliation with God are one and the same. Unfortunately, this growth often means “spilling the milk” (i.e. sinning). Once the milk has been spilled, we may seek and obtain forgiveness, but the mess must still be cleaned up. Though we are forgiven, the very act of cleaning up our mess is healing, strengthening, and most importantly humbling. Through the process of penance we benefit personally and grow as individuals while at the same time we sharply re-assert our relationship to God. In other words we remind ourselves that we are NOT God!
The intellectual difficulty with the “once saved, always saved” paradigm is that it fails to account for the one, God-given quality that sets us apart from the rest of Creation. Namely, that is the self-conscious capability to improve, to become better than we are. It is the constant refinement (in spite of our inability to achieve perfection) of this ability to improve that defines us and makes us grow in our relationship to God. “Once saved, always saved,” taken to its conceptual extreme, removes the responsibility to honor this gift. On the other hand, penance is a key way to exercise this gift and grow.
Finally, God is the perfect form of mercy, but He is also the perfect form of justice. Mercy demands forgiveness; justice demands penance.
What was Peter’s penance for the three denials? Peter had to tell Jesus to His face that he loved Him…three times (John 21:15-17).

In Him,

Dirk

 

[whatevergirl]

I appreciate your reply, Dirk–when I have more time, I’ll reply in further detail–I really like your ‘spilled milk’ analogy…so true!

 

[SyCarl]

One problem with the “once saved, always saved position” is that you can never be positive that you are one of the elect who has been saved. If somehow you don’t persevere in faith, then you never were really saved before.

With respect to penance, if we have hurt someone and can do anything to remedy the situation, I think that our love for that person would lead us to want to remedy it. If we don’t do we truly repent and love the person? If our sin was against God only I don’t see how we can do anything to remedy that. God forgives us because of His grace because of our faith. If we had to do anything to appease Him it would mean that our forgiveness wasn’t really from grace and that Jesus’ sacrifice was not enough to appease God. God may choose to impose consequences to our action to discipline us to pursue the right course in the future but that is through His love, not a requirement to appease Him. How would we due penance in such a case? By showing charity? But we already owe God all the charity we do and more on top of it. How can doing what we already should be doing amount to penance?

 

[Cleopas]

I am lumped in that collective title of Protestant Christian. However I am not a believer in OSAS or of ES.

If I may, what do you mean or have in mind when you say penance?

 

[bengal_fan]

i am also protestant. i am also not osas. i also believe that the entire world is part of the elect for Jesus died for all mankind and reconciles all mankind to Himself. it’s just that some choose to live in this truth, and others choose to live outside this truth and they can choose to live outside of it all the way to hell.

that being said, i think there are enormous benefits to penance, but i wholeheartedly disagree with them being any sort of punishment. here are the purposes (as i see them) of penance:

1. helps to remove the guilt we place on ourselves. by doing something, we feel that we are expressing our sorry in a tangible way and that helps us to know that we have truly expressed our sorrow to God and to others.

2. it can help to shift our way of thinking. we focus way too much on sin. wherever we focus our hearts and minds, is where we will usually end up. if i am constantly focused on “not sinning” i will only be thinking about sin. an example: a study was done (something like 20 years ago… i cannot remember the reference, we discussed it in my freshman year of college in my psych class… that was 15 years ago). it involved 200 experienced waiters and waitresses. they gave each of them a tray of drinks and food that was way overloaded and the assignment of delivering the items to a table on the other side of a crowded restaurant. they split the group half. one half was to concentrate on not dropping the tray. “i am not going to drop the tray” was the mantra they were to repeat to themselves. the other half was to concentrate on carrying the tray and delivering the food and drinks. “i will carry this tray all the way across the room and give the people their food” was the phrase they were to repeat to themselves. results: the first group had over 80 people drop the overloaded tray, the second group had NONE. if we are focuses on not sinning, we are much more likely to sin that if our focus is on loving God and others (the two greatest commands). penance can help us to shift our focus from not sinning to the things we should be focusing on: prayer and service to others.

3. it can help to rebuild trust with those we have offended. God knows our hearts. He knows when we have truly repented. we do not need to earn His trust back. the rest of us do not have the gift of being able to know some one better than they know themselves. if some one sins against me, i lose respect and trust for that person. if they confess to me and tell me they are sorry, i forgive them. but i still will probably not trust them. if i see that their actions have changed and i see it over an extended period of time, my trust in them will come back. they don’t do it as a punishment, but they do it because an inward change has taken place.

when we view penance (i don’t like the word, but we will use it as it is most familiar to people) as a punishment or repayment, we do two things:

1. diminish the work of Christ on the cross. our debt to God has been paid in full. there is nothing we could ever do to pay for even one sin against God on our own. He paid for all of our sins for us. the spilled milk analogy is a bad one because, yes God forgives us, but He also has cleaned up the milk for us as well (in an eternal sense… there is always fallout from sin in this world, but that is dealt with in the trust comment above). when we think that by any punishment we take on, that we earn any of God’s love back or forgiveness or can clean up our relationship with God on our own, we take away from what He accomplished on the cross.

2. we make positive things into, at best, chores and at worst, punishment. as a child, when i would go to confession my penance was to say 10 our Fathers and 10 hail mary’s or some other combination of prayers. or my penance would be to go and serve the poor or help the person i sinned against. if this is punishment for my sins, i will only do enough to complete the punishment. but if this is to serve in changing my heart and focus in life, then i will strive to do more than the bare minimum.

thus, penance has enormous spiritual value, but it cheapens it when we put it in the category of punishment or repayment.

 

[Pokedaughter]

I have been Protestant all my life so here is how it works for me personally.

I define sin as being disobient to God which results in a separated relationship with Him. I was made to be “with God” (as are all people), therefore it is physically and emotionally painful for me to be “away” from Him or out of His will. What is sin for one person may not be sin for another. I believe God only shows us a small portion of our sin at a time because otherwise we could not stand to live with ourselves.

When I have sinned or are about to do so, the Holy Spirit absolutely invades every part of me like a spotlight lighting up a darkened warehouse. I am immediately flooded with sadness and remorse for the sin that I have committed and will stop at nothing to get back into relationship with my Heavenly Father.

(This happened to me just last weekend so it is still very fresh in my heart and mind.)

So, what did God have me do to get it corrected? I first spent a while in prayer, by myself, telling God I was sooo sorry and ready for Him to graciously take me out of the situation and renew my heart and mind. (And yes a few tears were shed.) I knew at that moment God had already forgiven me he just needed me to know it too. I then spent my prayer time in church the next day offering up my heart and desires to Him. We had what we call silent Lord’s Supper that evening where we spend time reading scripture and taking inventory of ourselves. I was able to “come clean” with God during that time and realized that there was nothing I could do to take myself out of the situation of disobedience that I had gotten myself into, but that I needed God to take it away instead. That is Grace! I then shared my sin or disobedience with a Christian friend and she was able to pray for me as well.

I am now walking in freshness with God. I always ask Him to help me see situations through his eyes and not my human understanding and that tends to keep me out of trouble. lol

Sometimes as a result of sin we must go to the person we have offended and try and make it right under God’s direction. Sometimes we pay pennance through the Justice system. As kids we were punished by our parents and as adults sometimes the pennance we pay is through the loss of a relationship. The key is that we are able to accept our punishment and receive forgiveness from our Heavenly Father. I think Satan loves for us to walk in guilt because then we are ineffective Christians. God wants us to “know” His forgiveness so we can “know” His love and live in abundant joy with His kingdom!

 

[Syele]

I also am a protestant who does not believe in OSAS (a recent poll on the forums I saw showed very few who did.)

I think everyone here has stated it beautifully.

I have a problem with assigned penance because then is it a punishment rather than an outpouring of your heart. We owe God all the worship, all the prayer, all the money, all the time we have. There is no on top of that requirement because we already are not giving everything to God. When we sin, it is good to do more giving of worship and charity than we usually do, so we can redirect our focus back to God, but 10 our fathers would be woefully inadequate if it is some kind of way to repair what we have done, repairing it is only possible because God does all the repairing.

Thank God that He is so Merciful!

 

[fbl9]

I also am a protestant who does not believe in OSAS (a recent poll on the forums I saw showed very few who did.)

I think everyone here has stated it beautifully.

I have a problem with assigned penance because then is it a punishment rather than an outpouring of your heart. We owe God all the worship, all the prayer, all the money, all the time we have. There is no on top of that requirement because we already are not giving everything to God. When we sin, it is good to do more giving of worship and charity than we usually do, so we can redirect our focus back to God, but 10 our fathers would be woefully inadequate if it is some kind of way to repair what we have done, repairing it is only possible because God does all the repairing.

Thank God that He is so Merciful!

my friend every bridge has two ends,by saying God does all the repairing you seem to imply you have no part of the relationship with Him?how do you make ammends to the God you offended then?

 

[Cleopas]

how do you make ammends to the God you offended then?

By claiming and trusting the merit of Christ and His once for all sacrifice as the propitiation for our sins. If we sin we have an advocate with the Father. If we confess, trusting in Christ’s intercession and merit, then God does forgive and cleanse. The only thing we bring is contrition and faith. All the work is done by God, thanks to Christ of course.

 

[whatevergirl]

These replies are so moving and uplifting, I cannot even begin to tell you how happy I am to read them. I didn’t realize that there was a small number who believe in the OSAS philosophy–that is eye opening. I also am equally as fascinated by the similiarities with how Catholics and Protestants view confession and sin.

The ‘imposed’ penance by a priest, to the poster who brought that up–is really a beginning stage. The true penance I have always believed, is when we struggle against the tempation that leads us to sin–not indulging that ‘second’ or ‘third’ (or however many) time, when we are trying to renew our souls, and be ‘right’ with God. I am glad I asked this, because I’m pleasantly surprised with the replies.

 

[whatevergirl]

By claiming and trusting the merit of Christ and His once for all sacrifice as the propitiation for our sins. If we sin we have an advocate with the Father. If we confess, trusting in Christ’s intercession and merit, then God does forgive and cleanse. The only thing we bring is contrition and faith. All the work is done by God, thanks to Christ of course.

Yes, that is very true. There are no ‘works’ that we could merit, to bring about our own eternal salvation. That being said–when we are walking with Christ, or wishing to anyways, we realize that it takes ‘work’ or ‘effort’ to accomplish that. Our free will can be used for good or bad–those choices we do make, on our own. But, in the obedience to God, I rely on God’s grace.

I guess my next question is…can someone ever lose eternal salvation, and if so–how? (asking this to non Catholics)

 

[Cleopas]

I guess my next question is…can someone ever lose eternal salvation, and if so–how? (asking this to non Catholics)

I believe so, yes. How? By failing to abide in Christ.

For instance, as I understand it, if one were to knowingly sin and failed to confess and repent of it they would cease to be in right standing before God.

John the beloved tell us that as we walk in the light the blood of the Lord cleanses us from all sin. So then to cease to walk in the light is to cease to receive the effectual cleansing of Christ’s atoning work. As John further says if we do not walk in the light we are in darkness.

If one should die in that condition, apart from and without Christ, they die lost.

 

[Syele]

my friend every bridge has two ends,by saying God does all the repairing you seem to imply you have no part of the relationship with Him?how do you make ammends to the God you offended then?

I have a part in my relationship with God, but only because of His grace.

I cannot really make amends with God when I offend him. I will still face God about it at Judgment, but not all offences send you straight to hell there is an option to repent and continue in faith.

I rewrote this a few times already cause I wasn’t making proper sense. If it’s still unclear, let me know. I can only think to tell this in an analogy, but analogies are never perfect so keep that in mind.

In this earthly life, everyone is on a path… a road we take from birth to death. After death comes Judgement by God that determines our spirtual life or death for eternity.

God Set out the path and the rules for following the path. He also set out a punishment for not following those rules. The punishment was death. But all broke the rules. So God included mercy in His plan for those who have faith in him and repent when they fail. This mercy does not Make it like it never happened but instead simply allows us to keep going down the path toward Him.

Sin is like if you take a step backwards in your relationship with God. You are now farther away from your destination(a perfect relationship with God). You can take two steps forward and be closer than you were at the time of the backwards step, but you cant undo the step backwards… you will always be behind where you would have been had you not gone backwards at some point. If God was unforgiving, then He would not allow you to begin to go forward again. So no matter how hard you tried you’d keep going backwards. Instead He says “Do not go backwards! Repent and move closer again!”

If you keep practicing going backwards, it will get easier, you will learn to not listen to God at all. When you keep going backwards you Eventually will fall off the cliff of faith. you wont care anymore, you don’t have faith that God cares about you, you dont want to hear the admonishments to go forward so you hold your hears. Your heart is hardened to God and you end up in hell.

Once you die you are judged. God will hold you accountable for all the times you went backwards… He gave you the grace to make it to z but you only got to p! If you had faith in Him and did not let your heart be hardned towards Him, you will be Saved from eternal spiritual Death, though your reward in heaven will be determined by the steps you took on the path. If at judgment you find that you were hardened to God, had no Faith in Him to lead you down the path, you will go to hell.

Protestants often say “Well, we do not know his heart…” We mean that Maybe the person is going backwards from addiction and despretely wants to be free of it. They may have faith and are not purposely backing from God. Some may be saved but will have few rewards in heaven beyond that. This means salvation doesn’t matter where you are on the path, it only matters what your true goal is.

Every sin you commit will be judged by God. Every backwards step will be rewarded accordingly. You cannot erase it, but you can be forgiven so you are not given a go directly to hell do not pass go card for every mistake.

 

[SyCarl]

my friend every bridge has two ends,by saying God does all the repairing you seem to imply you have no part of the relationship with Him?how do you make ammends to the God you offended then?

We can only really make amends to God by repenting and trying not to sin again. Does almsgiving amend things; does saying extra prayers do it? I don’t think so because we should be doing those already if we can. When you already owe God everything, how can you add something extra to that?

 

[DirkF15]

I will first respond to Cleopas’ comments early on in this thread. To be labeled “Protestant” can mean a variety of things from a theological perspective. I think that the label “Protestant” can be unfairly monolithic and potentially lumps a rather wide array of beliefs into one group. So, in the end, it is critical to define the terms we use and work to speak from the same position.

That being said, I’ve seen an interesting trend on this thread. Many have suggested we must continually strive to do better in our walk with Christ. Analogies such as the “path toward God” and the inherent idea of our taking steps to be in closer communion with God seem to resonate with all that have posted on this thread.

At the same time, I’ve also seen a few comments that argue any penance on our part cannot appease God and, since everything we do should be for Him, it doesn’t make sense how we could add to that “with a couple Hail Mary’s.” I would say, viewing the discussion from a human perspective…this makes sense.

At the same time, penance can be viewed from God’s point of view. They are a gift from our Father that help us focus our efforts toward abandoning the sin from which we just received forgiveness. Left on our own, we may ask for forgiveness in our hearts, but the potential of being untrue to ourselves is always there. We can convince ourselves that we are repentant and contrite when we are really not. If anyone on this thread is like me, they know this potential is all too real!

The sacrament of penance as well as the pentitential prayers given after confession are both concrete ways to help us with our own humanity. They are the aids given to us by Christ to help provide focus to our efforts to give ourselves to Him.

As such, the idea of penance is more about us becoming more conscious of our own failings and resolving to “take the next step forward.” With God’s grace, and only with that, we can. From this perspective then, penance in no way challenges the sufficiency of Christ’s suffering. In fact, in my mind, is serves to enrich it! He not only paid for our sins on the cross but he also gave us many beautiful tools designed to help us grow in our relationship with Him! The Catholic Church holds up the Eucharist as the absolute center of these gifts with the Sacrament of Penance closely behind.

 

[Cleopas]

When you already owe God everything, how can you add something extra to that?

Well said, friend. Well said.

We who owe God everything obviously could not amend anything to begin with, much less now. Albeit, seeing we are so grateful for His infinite love and mercy so graciously poured out on us in the free gift of salvation, we now live to love and serve Him as a token of repayment – a gesture of gratitude from a willing servant.

 

[DirkF15]

…we now live to love and serve Him as a token of repayment – a gesture of gratitude from a willing servant.

It is precisely this gesture of which I have been speaking. My penitent prayers or my attendance to the Sacrament of Penance does not pay the price for my sin. These prayers are merely “a gesture of gratitude from a willing servant.”

The Sacrament of Penance and penitential prayers do, however, provide a critical self re-orientation God. They are designed to take what little I give to God and, for a moment, focus attention on my sins–with the hope that, by God’s grace, I can successfully combat them when temptation returns. (For a really good explanation of the Sacrament of Penance, I recommend Catholic Encyclopedia online…it answers many of the issues raised here and contends with many erroneous notions of the practice.)

Finally, perhaps it would be useful to consider the parable of the prodigal son. His return was met with unconditional forgiveness from a father whom he’d sinned against–every sin was wiped away. But what about every single broken, starving, nerve-wracking, humbling, and fearful step the son had to take on his way to that meeting? Does this parable not speak to the necessity for us to take such steps in our own lives? The Catholic understanding of these steps is that some are taken via the Sacrament of Penance.

Fueled by the grace of God, we continuously take such steps to remind ourselves of our right relationship with God who is not just The Judge (to whom the idea of “owing something” speaks to) but also our Father? As a dad, I take great pride in any of the seemingly insignificant steps my children take. My relationship with them is strengthened when I seem them take these little steps to grow, and their relationship to me also grows as I give them the love that a daddy has for his children. How much more is this true for our relationship with God, the Father through his Son, Jesus?

In Him,

Dirk

---

“There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church, which is, of course, quite a different thing.” Bishop Fulton Sheen

 

[MarcoPolo]

i1. diminish the work of Christ on the cross. 2. we make positive things into, at best, chores and at worst, punishment.

Hey bengal…when I read this it sounded like you were scolding Paul. How do you understand when Paul says “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.”

Would you say that is penance as “punishment” or Paul applying the power of the Cross to himself and the Church? What exactly is lacking in Christ’s sufferings?

 

[bengal_fan]

Hey bengal…when I read this it sounded like you were scolding Paul. How do you understand when Paul says “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.”

Would you say that is penance as “punishment” or Paul applying the power of the Cross to himself and the Church? What exactly is lacking in Christ’s sufferings?

i understand paul’s statement in light of the entire chapter in which that one statement appears. if you read the whole chapter, you will see that paul repeatedly talks about the sufficiency of Christ and His sacrifice. so then what does he mean by “lacking”? i see it as paul saying the only thing Christ’s death didn’t accomplish was that the whole world knows about it. that is the job He left to His followers (the whole great commission thing ). so, paul suffers (but rejoices in it) so the sake of this one task that we have been given to do by God. and paul did suffer for it. he was beheaded for it eventually. that is how i understand what paul is saying and i think that is interpretation consistent with the context of the letter.

i would maintain that penance has no use as punishment.