Non-Catholics attending Mass; Catholics attending non-Catholic services

[Pokedaughter]

“I’m thinking the only solution to such cases would be to sit in the back of the area, so that my non-participation in the service would go unnoticed…”

I’m going to opt for this solution from now on as so not to offend anyone because I am only a spectator of a religious service.

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

Ok. So back on topic then… Are non-Catholics not allowed to touch a Catholic after they have taken the Holy Eucharist during “Our Father” because the Catholic would be made unclean if they made human contact with a non-Catholic?

No, not at all. We Catholics aren’t in the business of judging what’s clean and unclean. Like what Jesus said, things of that sort just don’t matter – what happens to your body doesn’t matter; the only thing that matters is what your body does. The Old Testament talks about clean and unclean objects and gentiles, but we understand that it was just a part of the Covenant until the Messiah comes. The Messiah came; the Apostles weren’t sure if those cleanliness laws still applied. Our first Pope, Saint Peter, decided that we no longer need to worry about the clean and the unclean. This is why people like Mother Teresa, John Paul II and Father Damien of Molokai got to work with lepers. They, if anyone, would be considered “unclean,” but Jesus sent us to be with everyone who needs us. As Christians, we understand now that no human being is unclean. “What God has made clean, no man has the right to call unclean.”

With the Our Father, there isn’t supposed to be holding hands at all, Catholic or not. The rules just specify that the hands are supposed to be raised – no holding is supposed to be involved at all.

Like I said earlier, it really is only in America and America-influenced countries where the custom was picked up. It’s actually improper.

Take a look at, for example, Masses with Cardinals. There are videos of them on the Vatican website. If any living people are “clean” these days, it’s those men. But they don’t hold hands at the Our Father either.

And *after *the Our Father, we are invited to offer signs of peace to the people around us. The sign of peace can involve a kiss, a hug, a handshake, whatever; we’re called to share the peace with those around us, Catholic or not. The person could be a satanist for all it matters, but we still are invited to share peace.

After Communion, there isn’t any rule about touching anything.

Why ever that boy didn’t hold hands with you and your daughter at the Our Father is his own thing and it doesn’t really involve any Church customs. Perhaps it was because he was shy. I’m a 23 year old guy and I can tell you, it can awkward to have to be with your date’s parents. Maybe he was so nervous that his hands were cold and sweaty.

Or like I said previously, it may just have been that he knew the rules that you really aren’t supposed to be holding hands at the Our Father at all; he might have just been following what he knows were the rules.

Whatever the case, if I can give some advice, maybe it isn’t a good idea to be so alarmed by his not holding hands with you. It doesn’t seem like it was a sign of rejection – if he were rejecting you and your daughter, he wouldn’t have had brought you to Mass with him. If you really wanna see bad, you should see what I do when I want people to go away.

 

[Michael_Welter]

I’ve been to many Masses, particularly weddings and funerals, where non-Catholics were in attendance, and they sit among the congregation. I haven’t noticed any problems caused by this. The Catholics participate fully, and the non-Catholics watch, and sometimes jon in the responses, if they wish. In my parish, we project the responses on the screens, so any non-Catholics in attendance can participate. We try to welcome all, even if they are not Catholic. We’re all Christians.

 

[jmcrae]

I am new to this forum and have been learning and examining the Catholic Religion for the past few months because our family has made friends with a young man who has grown up in the Catholic faith. That said, I thought I might let you in on the “other side” of what it is like to attend Catholic Mass as a non-Catholic who has grown up on the protestant church and devotes my daily life to prayer and participation in a relationship with Jesus Christ.

My 15 year old daughter and I attended mass with this young man last fall on All Saint’s Day. His mother stated he “had to go” so he obediently did as his mother said. She however was not available to take him to Mass so I volunteered to take him. He was dating my daughter at the time and had invited her to go as well. We went to Mass together and all was well until it came time for the Holy Eucharist. He of course went forward to take the Eucharist and appropriately instructed my daughter to stay in the pew. (I already knew not to take the Eucharist because I attended Mass on Wed. nights with a friend during college.) Then came a time when the people in attendance held hands and raised them up during song. He would not hold our hands and he did not raise them up either.

This activity isn’t part of the Mass. I’m assuming this took place after the final blessing, and that it is a local custom of that particular parish. Since he was at the Mass under duress to begin with, the young man probably felt that he did not want to go “above and beyond” with this extra activity, without realizing how his rebelling against this non-Mass activity would affect your daughter (and probably also without realizing that you and your daughter had no way of knowing that this wasn’t actually part of the Mass). He was probably just thinking to himself, “Well, Mass is done, and I’ve done as I was told to do. I’m not going to do anything extra.”

By now my daughter is feeling extremely rejected and confused.

Understandably so.

The Priest then led the people in a Rosary prayer and my daughter said she would have run out crying had I not been there. I say these things so you who have grown up Catholic can understand how odd Mass can seem to first timers. My daughter said it seemed like everyone was in a trance and that they were reciting things like robots. She said the service was cult-like and she was very scared. I just feel the Catholic faithful need to have more grace when it comes to people who have never been to Catholic Mass. There are so many rules it is overwhelming. I somehow think sometimes these rules hide the love of Christ. Just a thought.

It can certainly seem like that, at first. When I attended my first Rosary, I thought the lady who was leading it sounded like the Dalek from Dr. Who.

Later, when I got to know her, I realized that she was a very kind and very devoutly Christian lady, and that her prayers were very sincere and heartfelt.

I also came to know the Rosary a lot better, and to enjoy the chanting of the prayers. I agree with you that it is certainly an acquired taste, however.

 

[jmcrae]

What are our rules regarding having non-Catholics attend Mass? This is an inevitable problem with Weddings and Funerals. For example, do we expect protestants and non-Christians to kneel, stand, etc.?

I invite my non-Catholic guests to remain seated throughout the Mass, and not to worry about anyone who seems to be staring at them. (They are praying, I tell them, and just happen to be facing in your direction.)

I take time beforehand to explain that we have some very unique beliefs about Holy Communion, quite different than what Protestants believe, and that the fact that they are not permitted to receive Holy Communion in no way means that they are being “excluded” from anything important to them. (Not receiving Holy Communion simply means that you are not a Catholic.) They are most welcome to participate in fellowship suppers and to come to the coffee hour after Mass with us to make friends and chat with people.

 

[jmcrae]

Ok. So back on topic then… Are non-Catholics not allowed to touch a Catholic after they have taken the Holy Eucharist during “Our Father” because the Catholic would be made unclean if they made human contact with a non-Catholic?

Now I’m confused. We pray the Our Father before we receive Holy Communion; not after.

 

[jmcrae]

I wonder if there is a rubric saying that you can’t touch a non-Catholic during the sign of peace?

I hope not, or else all the Catholic friends who used to bring me to Mass while I was on my journey of conversion are in big trouble - they used to hug me at the sign of peace!

 

[Pokedaughter]

Boy. The moderator is going to get really mad at us. lol

but…".Now I’m confused. We pray the Our Father before we receive Holy Communion; not after"

Our Father was actually “performed” (for lack of a better word) twice. Once prior to Communion and then again after. And my daughter and I just felt like we were totally intruding because when we tried to participate we felt stupid and when we sat or stood and “observed” we felt rejected and/or separated. It was not a good experience. This young man has gone to church with us and felt very comfortable with our service and enjoyed the scripture teaching a great deal. He loves scripture now and has started reading his bible. He was very participatory in our protestant service. And he even goes on his own occasionally (to our church). I would just suggest that if a person feels out of place or is only an observer to stay toward the back of the church and learn. In the long run we can’t make everyone happy no matter what we do.

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

Boy. The moderator is going to get really mad at us. lol
(…)
Our Father was actually “performed” (for lack of a better word) twice. Once prior to Communion and then again after.

The other Our Father would just have been an innovation by the priests there in that case. Like at the parish where I go to Mass on weekdays, if it’s someone’s birthday, everyone sings Happy Birthday and those marking the occassion would get a special blessing from the priest before the general blessing and dismissal. I heard of another case where the people sing with their arms outstretched to the birthday celebrants “May God Bless You” in the Happy Birthday Tune. At Masses that come with a big event, like the Consecrating of a Church or a priest’s anniversary Mass, sometimes the presider would thank people who came. At Papal Masses, the Pope also often delivers delivers a short message; he may have preferred not to do it during the Homily because it would be inappropriate. Now whether or not these innovations are permitted by rules, that’s another question.

If you wish to discuss this topic more, it might be a best if you just started a new thread. There are a lot of great people on the forums who could give their opinions to your particular question, but since the subject title of this thread I started here has to do with a markedly different topic, the people who have the answers you’d like might overlook my threads and thus be unaware of the topics you brought up.

Meanwhile, could we please get back to the topic regarding what to do when attending non-Christian services in which we don’t believe? Thanks.

 

[DrPiano]

As a non-Catholic (for now), I’ve been to quite a few Masses at quite a few different churches. In the beginning I didn’t want to stick out like a sore thumb, so I sat near the back, and near people who knew what they were doing. I grabbed a Missal and read along and tried to do what everyone else was doing. The people around me were VERY gracious and talked to me before and after, and even tried to assist me at times when I was very obviously confused.

Now, when I go, I try to do the same for others. I know what is going on, I know what is coming next, and while I still can’t take Holy Communion (yet) I feel comfortable doing everything else.

Rather that pushing for people to be segregated, I would urge you all to be gracious to the Non-Catholic Christians in your midst. I would most likely NOT be in the process of Swimming the Tiber if there weren’t many kind souls along the way who were patient and compassionate with me and helped me learn what was going on. If I had been met with stares and glares or snide comments, that would have been the last time I stepped foot in the church for a very long time.

Let Non-catholic Christians sit wherever they feel comfortable. Don’t push them off to the back if the back is not where they wish to be. Simply because they sit there in the pew in front of you (and don’t kneel) or because they don’t cross themselves (or at least not in the right direction) doesn’t mean that you should let it distract you. Praise God with your entire being - your attention should be on the altar and Christ’s presence rather than the person in front of you anyway.

As for attending non-Catholic services, my advice would be to let prudence and your conscience guide you. Pray a lot before hand. Then, if you feel like something would be a) scandalous or b) damaging to your soul, don’t do it. If it isn’t either of those things, consider doing it out of respect.

To use the example of a Non-Catholic in a Catholic church to illustrate this point: my mother (a non-Catholic) would feel her soul was in jeopardy if she bowed to a statue of Mary. In her own heart, at this moment, she would not be able to see it as a sign of respect. She would see it as worship. My non-Catholic fiance (who is also Crossing the Tiber) was able to pick up reverence for the saints, particularly through their images, very quickly and not be scandalized by it. When my mother enters a Catholic church, she should not pay any honor to the statue of Mary (until she is in a position where she is ready to do so). On the other hand, its ok for my fiance. I think the same should apply when you go elsewhere. Unless the Church forbids it, I think its up to your own conscience whether it is ok or not.

Any thoughts?

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

Let Non-catholic Christians sit wherever they feel comfortable. Don’t push them off to the back if the back is not where they wish to be. Simply because they sit there in the pew in front of you (and don’t kneel) or because they don’t cross themselves (or at least not in the right direction) doesn’t mean that you should let it distract you. Praise God with your entire being - your attention should be on the altar and Christ’s presence rather than the person in front of you anyway.

As for attending non-Catholic services, my advice would be to let prudence and your conscience guide you. Pray a lot before hand. Then, if you feel like something would be a) scandalous or b) damaging to your soul, don’t do it. If it isn’t either of those things, consider doing it out of respect.
(…)
Any thoughts?

I think it’s obvious from the context of what I wrote was that I was referring to those non-Catholics who do not come as guests to Mass in good faith. I meant anti-Catholic protestants, non-Christians and atheists.

In their cases, they come to Mass to be there at the wedding or funeral, not out of good intentions like what you are doing. You made the effort to learn; the people I’m referring to here are those who dismiss the practises outright and if not just sitting there like a lump of clay, could be reading or listening to iPods. For them, it’s all the same; they of course have no respect for the customs, but they also have no respect for those participating in those customs.

If they come to Mass and really try to partake in it, that’s great. I’m not nit-picking about cases where people don’t know what to do. You could be a first-timer and make the sign of the cross in the wrong direction – at least you’re trying. I’m concerned about when people just don’t care, and their obstinant behaviour disrupts the worship.

Again, it’s like my case when I had to go to a Buddhist temple. I wouldn’t join in because I simply don’t believe in it. Now, I didn’t intend to cause a distraction and I was as polite as I could be, but there’s no way I’d bow to a statue of the Buddha. Likewise, I don’t expect an atheist, for example, to partake in a Mass, or for an Evangelical who hates Catholicism to kneel down before the Real Presence of the Eucharist, because for them, it’s just a piece of bread. I once heard someone refer to the host as a cracker.

Like I said, the behaviour of those people disrupts worship because they (1) distract and (2) it is hard to see the Consecration when the guy in front of you is sitting.

The segregation I was posing is not meant to treat non-Catholics and non-Orthodox like they’re bad. Again like I earlier, Option A would be to be accomodating to disruptive non-believers at the expense of the faithful, whose experience in worship would be distracted or otherwise harmed, and Option B would be to be concerned with the faithful first by segregating the others out so that their prayer would go uninterrupted. Option B greatly outweighs Option A; even though it would entail something that is rather undiplomatic, we can’t sacrifice prayer for the sake of diplomacy.

Option C would be to make it mandatory for everyone to participate, but that’s as wrong as Option A, because God hates not like empty devotion. An atheist kneeling toward the Eucharist would qualify.

Once again, if they want to participate, if they are there in good faith, that’s wonderful. But if they’re just going to be sitting there like the opposition party in a State of a Union Address, I don’t think it’s so bad to have them sit at the back.

 

[Pokedaughter]

I am planning on going to a Messianic Jewish Synagogue sometime in the near future. I am sure I will hide in the back unless the church goers are gracious and drag me into their midsts. (lol) But I am going to learn about the Jewish customs of worship integrated into their faith in Jesus Christ. And that is what it boils down to in my opinion. Faith vs. Religion and how to act appropriately. If I am visiting a “like-faith” church then I will try a participate as my heart leads. “Like-faith” for me is a church that has the same foundation of faith as myself which is that God sent His son Jesus to die for my sins. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus was crucified and buried and raised to new life so I too might know Eternal Salvation. Those are the building blocks of my faith personally. ( I also have committed to make Jesus Lord of my life and rely on the Holy Spirit to lead me in my relationship with Christ and My Father in Heaven. FYI) But if I visit a church that does not believe these foundational truths and is thus a different Religion, then I will politely sit at the back and respectfully “observe”. This discussion has helped me to remember to be Divinely hospitable to all people who walk into my life. We who call ourselves Christians (people who love Jesus) need to be a “light” to everyone.

 

[DrPiano]

I think by formally excluding them ahead of time you’d do far more to widen the chasm between Catholics and Non-Catholics than good. If a non-Catholic was being truly disruptive (and here I’m thinking on the order of jumping on the seats or talking loudly or something like that), I could understand. But even if they simply choose to sit like a lump on the seat, then how is that disruptive to you? Why should you care? At least they’ll be hearing and seeing how you worship, and not just from the perspective of an outsider. Perhaps the Holy Spirit will use that moment to plant a seed in their heart that will one day grow - a seed that would have found MUCH harder ground if they were told to “Please sit in the back as you are likely to be disruptive and therefore not welcome to sit in the middle of the congregation.”

Again, I reiterate, that the first time I went, I was clueless. I had no idea when to stand up and when to kneel. My mom sat and quietly listened to what happened in the Mass. I pray that the few times she’s gone to Mass will quietly speak to her heart (I know after that one experience she had a lot to talk about). And I can guarantee you that if we were told to sit in the back or in a “special area” for non-Catholics, neither of us would ever come back.

I’m not saying change the rituals to be more accommodating. I’m not saying change what you do. I think there is another option between your a) change what you do for non-Catholics b) have the faithful be distracted and c) make the non-Catholics sit in the back (or be otherwise segregated). I think there is an option d) pray for those in your midst who aren’t following the rituals. Pray that the Spirit uses the opportunity to soften their hearts. And then turn your attention back to the liturgy. It doesn’t need to be distracting if someone doesn’t kneel.

And to be honest - I doubt you were much of a distraction for not bowing to the Buddha. I bet people forgot about it 2 minutes later.

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

Once again, could we all please stay on topic? This is the third time I asked in less than five hours. There are over thirty posts on this thread, and still only one of them tried to answer the original question in this thread I started.

If you wish to discuss nonrelated matters, please do so in another thread. This is a topic that is important to me and I’m trying to obtain some serious answers. The lone helpful response came three days ago.

Earlier today, when I followed the moderator in asking for a return to the original topic, I re-entered my initial question, so I could steer the conversation toward addressing those issues, and because I know there will be posters who will click on the current posts of this thread and be mistaken about the original intent and question. I did this very tactfully. Now this is thread is going onto its third page, and because of the discussion still moving in the wrong direction, first-time viewers will likewise misunderstand and only perpetuate the off-topic discussion. I would repeat the original question here again to prevent that, but I don’t want to be repetitive and make these posts unnecessarily long.

I would re-post this to a new thread so that the dicsussion could move properly, but it is against the rules for me to do so. Instead, I ask again, please move your unrelated discussion to another thread.

I’m really sorry if this all sounded too blunt, but you can imagine how frustrated I feel. I really did try to be more polite about this twice already, and again, this is a topic I really would like answers on, and the more the conversation goes off-topic, the less chance I’d get any real answers.

 

[DrPiano]

Once again, could we all please stay on topic? This is the third time I asked in less than five hours. There are over thirty posts on this thread, and still only one of them tried to answer the original question in this thread I started.

If you wish to discuss nonrelated matters, please do so in another thread. This is a topic that is important to me and I’m trying to obtain some serious answers. The lone helpful response came three days ago.

Earlier today, when I followed the moderator in asking for a return to the original topic, I re-entered my initial question, so I could steer the conversation toward addressing those issues, and because I know there will be posters who will click on the current posts of this thread and be mistaken about the original intent and question. I did this very tactfully. Now this is thread is going onto its third page, and because of the discussion still moving in the wrong direction, first-time viewers will likewise misunderstand and only perpetuate the off-topic discussion. I would repeat the original question here again to prevent that, but I don’t want to be repetitive and make these posts unnecessarily long.

I would re-post this to a new thread so that the dicsussion could move properly, but it is against the rules for me to do so. Instead, I ask again, please move your unrelated discussion to another thread.

I’m really sorry if this all sounded too blunt, but you can imagine how frustrated I feel. I really did try to be more polite about this twice already, and again, this is a topic I really would like answers on, and the more the conversation goes off-topic, the less chance I’d get any real answers.

I’m entirely sorry and sincerely apologize if I have not been “on topic”. You initial thread asked about non-Catholics attending Mass and whether they should be segregated from Catholics. It also asked what you should do when attending non-Catholic services. I thought I addressed both those issues and the reasons for the answers I gave. If I have not, please show me how I have gone off topic.

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

And to be honest - I doubt you were much of a distraction for not bowing to the Buddha. I bet people forgot about it 2 minutes later.

Thanks for your response, Elisa. Are the last four letters of your name pronounced more like Lisa or more like Liza? It’s a nice, unique name.

Anyway, while some may have forgotten it, it isn’t a guarenteed case. Like I mentioned, there are times when I would be an invited political guest; in cases like those, me just sitting while they would be standing would be a distraction. Or, among Muslims, for example, if I just sat while they bowed down to Mecca, they would notice and would tend to remember.

And like I already said, if they just sat like a lump while someone knelt behind them, it would obstruct the view of the Consecration.

Lastly, needing to pray for those you see at Mass who don’t participate would only distract you further. And, even if you do pray for them, if they’re that anti-Catholic, the reality is that they are probably not going to join in. Praying for people is useless if they don’t open their hearts to it.

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

I’m entirely sorry and sincerely apologize if I have not been “on topic”. You initial thread asked about non-Catholics attending Mass and whether they should be segregated from Catholics. It also asked what you should do when attending non-Catholic services. I thought I addressed both those issues and the reasons for the answers I gave. If I have not, please show me how I have gone off topic.

Sorry, I didn’t mean you. It just came up chronologically after your post, but it wasn’t a reply toward yours.

 

[Michael_Welter]

I thought I was trying to answer your questions in post #23. Apparently I don’t understand, so I’ll refrain from further posts in this topic. My apologies.

 

[jmcrae]

Boy. The moderator is going to get really mad at us. lol

but…".Now I’m confused. We pray the Our Father before we receive Holy Communion; not after"

Our Father was actually “performed” (for lack of a better word) twice. Once prior to Communion and then again after. And my daughter and I just felt like we were totally intruding because when we tried to participate we felt stupid and when we sat or stood and “observed” we felt rejected and/or separated. It was not a good experience.

No, I guess not. On behalf of everybody, I apologize. This should not have happened to you.

This young man has gone to church with us and felt very comfortable with our service and enjoyed the scripture teaching a great deal.

I’m sure he did, not only because your church is very welcoming, but because he has done similar things at Bible class and in Religion class at school and in his parish.

It’s always easier when it’s something you’ve done before, isn’t it?

He loves scripture now and has started reading his bible.

I’m sure he did before, too. We always encourage our young people to read the Bible. I’m glad he’s enjoying reading it with you guys, too.

 

[jmcrae]

And like I already said, if they just sat like a lump while someone knelt behind them, it would obstruct the view of the Consecration.

Shift over a bit, and look over their shoulder, or else offer it up for the little kids in the back pew who can’t see anything no matter what the person in front of them is doing.

There is no need to be rude to someone who may be a first-time visitor to Mass. After the Mass, when you see them in the parking lot, you could say, “We haven’t met before. Are you new here? Welcome to our parish!!”