non-Catholics coming to Catholic liturgies in liturgical vestments

[PazzoGrande]

Isn’t it improper? And I am referring to liturgical vestments, not clerical garments.

The other day, I was at a celebration Mass for one of the newly-canonised saints in the saint’s home diocese. The Mass was presided by the bishop and concelebrated by a number of other Bishops with a lot of priests. I was surprised to see a woman in an alb and stole. I later learnt that she was a protestant minister who was invited to join. The stole she was using was given to her by the local Catholic bishop, I recognised it because it had his coat of arms embroidered on it, he gave it out to both Catholic and non-Catholic clergy when he was consecrated and installed as our new Bishop some years ago.

Is it possible that this was just a mistake on her part and nobody told her at the event that she can’t wear that? I thought it’s liturgically prohibited.

 

[Julia_Mae]

If it’s part of her own liturgical vestments, she can wear it.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Officially invited clergy present would certainly be expected to vest appropriately. It was gracious of this individual to wear the stole given by the Catholic bishop.

 

[Burdensome1]

…just like it was incredibly short sighted of the Bishop to hand the stoles out to Protestants in the first place. They are, to be blunt, lay people. You don’t give stoles to lay people. We have some really silly Bishops.

 

[PazzoGrande]

…just like it was incredibly short sighted of the Bishop to hand the stoles out to Protestants in the first place. They are, to be blunt, lay people. You don’t give stoles to lay people. We have some really silly Bishops.

Yeah actually that’s what I thought in the first place too.

 

[Julia_Mae]

You know, I think someone should start sending links to these threads to the Pope so he can start making all these posters that are smarter and know more about theology and would make better Bishops into Cardinals. Obviously the Popes aren’t wise enough to appoint competent men as Bishops. Srsly, I have no idea why Benedict XVI doesn’t read all the new posts on CAF every morning.

 

[Gorgias]

…just like it was incredibly short sighted of the Bishop to hand the stoles out to Protestants in the first place. They are, to be blunt, lay people. You don’t give stoles to lay people. We have some really silly Bishops.

They didn’t “hand out stoles” for use in the Catholic Mass. The bishop offered a gift of a stole to the minister for their own personal use. The ministers that vested for the Mass, then, brought their own vestments. Was it rude to wear the ‘gift’ stole? I don’t think so; the minister, it seems, was showing her appreciation for the gift.

Separate the issues here, so that you can correctly discern them. If that minister would have worn a stole she personally bought, would you make the same claim? Of course not – she wasn’t trying to pass herself off as a priest. (And, although I wasn’t there, I would imagine that she didn’t sit in the sanctuary – at least, she shouldn’t have been!). If that isn’t a problem, then the only issue is whether there’s a problem wearing a gift that the bishop had given. On the face of it, that’s just silly, too!

 

[waterbrook]

You know, I think someone should start sending links to these threads to the Pope so he can start making all these posters that are smarter and know more about theology and would make better Bishops into Cardinals. Obviously the Popes aren’t wise enough to appoint competent men as Bishops. Srsly, I have no idea why Benedict XVI doesn’t read all the new posts on CAF every morning.

Love it

 

[ConstantineTG]

If it’s part of her own liturgical vestments, she can wear it.

I don’t know. When our Patriarch celebrated Divine Liturgy here we invited the local Ukrainian Orthodox clergy. They came wearing their cassocks (which Orthodox clergy do all the time) but not Liturgical vestments.

 

[Chrish1975]

You know, I think someone should start sending links to these threads to the Pope so he can start making all these posters that are smarter and know more about theology and would make better Bishops into Cardinals. Obviously the Popes aren’t wise enough to appoint competent men as Bishops. Srsly, I have no idea why Benedict XVI doesn’t read all the new posts on CAF every morning.

Yes, Some people on CAF sure don’t respect the Pope and his Bishops.

 

[Gorgias]

I don’t know. When our Patriarch celebrated Divine Liturgy here we invited the local Ukrainian Orthodox clergy. They came wearing their cassocks (which Orthodox clergy do all the time) but not Liturgical vestments.

But, that was their decision, not your Patriarch’s, right?

(Of course, I would expect that they might participate in the Liturgy of the Word, but certainly not be in the sanctuary for the Liturgy of the Eucharist (again, at their own discretion), right?)

 

[Mrs_Sally]

…just like it was incredibly short sighted of the Bishop to hand the stoles out to Protestants in the first place. They are, to be blunt, lay people. You don’t give stoles to lay people. We have some really silly Bishops.

Please be more respectful when talking about our Bishops.

 

[Leon_Bloy]

You know, I think someone should start sending links to these threads to the Pope so he can start making all these posters that are smarter and know more about theology and would make better Bishops into Cardinals. Obviously the Popes aren’t wise enough to appoint competent men as Bishops. Srsly, I have no idea why Benedict XVI doesn’t read all the new posts on CAF every morning.

OP, please clarify something about what happened. A non-Catholic minister was invited to participate as a con-celebrant in a mass? Or was she simply sitting in a pew like all the laypeople present?

If she was concelebrating in any sense, this is a gravely serious liturgical abuse that Rome has condemned in no uncertain terms:

*1. Graviora Delicta. The most grave kind of liturgical abuses are graviora delicta and are reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Each will be treated separated.

[172.] Graviora delicta against the sanctity of the Most August Sacrifice and Sacrament of the Eucharist are to be handled in accordance with the ‘Norms concerning graviora delicta reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’,[280] namely:

a) taking away or retaining the consecrated species for sacrilegious ends, or the throwing them away;[281]

b) the attempted celebration of the liturgical action of the Eucharistic Sacrifice or the simulation of the same;[282]

c) the forbidden concelebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice with ministers of Ecclesial Communities that do not have the apostolic succession nor acknowledge the sacramental dignity of priestly Ordination;[283]
d) the consecration for sacrilegious ends of one matter without the other in the celebration of the Eucharist or even of both outside the celebration of the Eucharist.[284]*

(see ewtn.com/expert/answers/cdw_liturgical_abuses.htm#graviora)

If what happened sounds like this, you should probably report it to Rome.

 

[ConstantineTG]

But, that was their decision, not your Patriarch’s, right?

(Of course, I would expect that they might participate in the Liturgy of the Word, but certainly not be in the sanctuary for the Liturgy of the Eucharist (again, at their own discretion), right?)

No, if you are not participating at the altar for Liturgy, you should not be vested. Then again, I am not sure what the rules are for that woman’s church.

 

[Cristiano]

You know, I think someone should start sending links to these threads to the Pope so he can start making all these posters that are smarter and know more about theology and would make better Bishops into Cardinals. Obviously the Popes aren’t wise enough to appoint competent men as Bishops. Srsly, I have no idea why Benedict XVI doesn’t read all the new posts on CAF every morning.

This is a major red herring and logical fallacy.

 

[superamazingman]

Isn’t it improper? And I am referring to liturgical vestments, not clerical garments.

The other day, I was at a celebration Mass for one of the newly-canonised saints in the saint’s home diocese. The Mass was presided by the bishop and concelebrated by a number of other Bishops with a lot of priests. I was surprised to see a woman in an alb and stole. I later learnt that she was a protestant minister who was invited to join. The stole she was using was given to her by the local Catholic bishop, I recognised it because it had his coat of arms embroidered on it, he gave it out to both Catholic and non-Catholic clergy when he was consecrated and installed as our new Bishop some years ago.

Is it possible that this was just a mistake on her part and nobody told her at the event that she can’t wear that? I thought it’s liturgically prohibited.

The more concerning here is the Catholic bishop giving out “stoles” to people like that. There’s no reason any bishop should be handing out stoles to any non-ordained, non catholic people, but especially women.

 

[Cristiano]

The more concerning here is the Catholic bishop giving out “stoles” to people like that. There’s no reason any bishop should be handing out stoles to any non-ordained, non catholic people, but especially women.

Giving the stole as a gift is already debatable; however, what really concerns me is the fact that the Bishop coat of arms is on the stoles.

 

[superamazingman]

Giving the stole as a gift is already debatable; however, what really concerns me is the fact that the Bishop coat of arms is on the stoles.

yes, that is even more concerning. I just don’t get why a bishop would give out stoles. it makes no sense, and is just asking for trouble.

 

[PazzoGrande]

You know, I think someone should start sending links to these threads to the Pope so he can start making all these posters that are smarter and know more about theology and would make better Bishops into Cardinals. Obviously the Popes aren’t wise enough to appoint competent men as Bishops. Srsly, I have no idea why Benedict XVI doesn’t read all the new posts on CAF every morning.

Sarcasm is useless, and it isn’t wrong for the laity to want to learn more.

Stay off this thread. Thanks.

 

[PazzoGrande]

OP, please clarify something about what happened. A non-Catholic minister was invited to participate as a con-celebrant in a mass? Or was she simply sitting in a pew like all the laypeople present?

Actually she sat in a specially-reserved pew around the vicinity of sisters. She wasn’t concelebrating.