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CMatt25
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Wow
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Matthew_P_Muehl
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I am sorry, but I refuse to believe that The Holy Spirit…The Spirit of Truth will lead someone to error. It is impossible. Now I am not saying that the Spirit is not at all involved in these peoples lives and they are not trying to seek God with their whole hearts…however, due to some impediment or something, they are unable to make the complete journey to Catholicism that The Spirit is really leading them towards. I apologize, but as a Catholic, I believe…actually I KNOW Catholicism is the One, True, Church and it is not possible The Holy Spirit would lead someone into apostasy and heresy…There are two reasons one ends up outside The Catholic Church while claiming it is The Spirit which led them there:
***Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth to a man right: and the ends thereof lead to death. ***
- They either fail to understand or just plain refuse to go where THe Holy Spirit is leading them.
- It isn’t The Holy Spirit, but he Devil leading them away…especially the case in fallen away Catholics. You can call me a jerk or rigid or whatever, but The Holy Spirit and Christ will not desire for you to leave The Catholic Church…and to claim it was His will for you to do so is a lie. It is possible The Father of All Lies willed it to happen, but it certainly wasn’t Christ or The Holy Spirit. Just as Christ was incapable of sinning, The Holy Spirit is incapable of leading one to error, apostasy, and heresy.
I agree with you on this one for sure.I get the same response from non-catholics that the holy spirit led them to where they are??? I’ve given historical proof time and again that the catholic church was founded by and given authority to by christ himself and yet they reject it.
It beats me how anyone can worship and praise christ and yet reject his church and it’s teachings?
Matthew
michaeldaniels;6372249:
I agree with you on this one for sure.
whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
Curious that the Catholic Catechism says that the Holy Spirit uses Churches and “ecclesial communities” as a means of salvation. Apparantly, the Catholic Church teaches that, under its auspices, I am drawn by the Holy Spirit, lead by the Holy Sprit to salvation. A far different teaching, it seems to me, then your personal interpretation.
Seems like, despite your efforts in this area, the dispute over your claim of the Church being exclusively found in communion with the Bishop of Rome has lasted more than 1,000 years. Maybe your presentation of the facts lacks something. I suggest you leave it to Cardinal Walter Kasper.I’ve given historical proof time and again that the catholic church was founded by and given authority to by christ himself and yet they reject it.
Understanding how or with what purpose the Holy Spirit moves believers is probably not within your ability, or mine. I believe He is clearly leading you, and me, into the one Truth, even if one or both of us doesn’t completely and correctly understand that one Truth at this time. Leading is not a finite snapshot in time, but a process over time, culminating in our entrance into the Church Triumphant.It beats me how anyone can worship and praise christ and yet reject his church and it’s teachings?
Jon
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Richard_Kastner
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Ok, I got you so far, but then you say.
I’m not quite sure what you mean here. Are you saying that the word of God " is a means of Grace, along with others, that Christ set up His Church to provide" or that faith " is a means of Grace, along with others, that Christ set up His Church to provide" The way I see it grace is the unmerited gift of salvation to mankind through the blood of Christ. The churches’ only part in this is to tell the world of Jesus and His salvation.
Grace is a gift. There are certain ways we receive Grace, and Christ set up His Church for that purpose, to preach the word and administer the sacraments.
Jon
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Richard_Kastner
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Are you then saying that we cannot recieve this unmerited gift unless we are a member of your church and recieve your church’es sacraments?
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MyRdmrLvs
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michaeldaniels;6372249:
I agree with you on this one for sure.
Matthew
If the Holy Spirit wanted me in the Catholic Church that is exactly where I and my wife and daughter would be.
Richard,
Check my post above, and you will find I said quite the opposite. Christ established His Church to make the means of Grace available. There is no limit, OTOH, to the ways God makes offers His grace. For me, I am strengthened by hearing the word and receiving the Sacrament of the Altar weekly or more often, within the congregation of Believers. Christianity is not a faith of isolation.
Jon
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TriuneUnity
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Do you know of a way that God saves sinners apart from the working of the Church?
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Edwardjohn
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For the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
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Richard_Kastner
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Well, here is your post Jon and you don,t appear to be saying the opposite of what I said at all. You say that Christ set up His church for the purpose of dispensing grace and that dispensation is accomplished through the preaching of the word and the sacraments. Now I.m assumning by His church you are talking about the CC and this of coarse would be denied non-Catholics.
In this post you place an addendum to your original post by saying “There is no limit, OTOH, to the ways God makes offers His grace.” Now I’m not sure what you mean by “makes offers” but it is my understanding that “grace” (the unmerited gift of salvation through the blood of Christ) is given freely to anyone that comes to Him in faith unencumbered by any church or the reception of any sacrament.
Jn.3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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Richard_Kastner
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Through the blood of Jesus Christ. This is the only way. Jn.14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
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TriuneUnity
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Completely different issue, Richard. Of course the atonement of Christ is the only grounds upon which sinners can be righteous before a holy God. However, since faith in that atonement is required, there is a means by which faith in Christ is created. That only happens through the ministrations of the Church.
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Richard_Kastner
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What do you mean, “Completely different issue,” it’s a simple answer to your question.
The only part the church plays in the salvic process is to show people Jesus.
I don’t know where you are getting your information from, but it certainly is not from the bible.
Eph.2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Faith also is a gift of God and does not need to be **ministered **by a church.
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TriuneUnity
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It is a different issue because we’re not talking about the basis for justification, which is what the atonement of Christ is.
How do they do that, Richard?
“How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?” Rom. 10:14
Faith is given by means of the Church, Richard. It’s not the source, but it is the instrument. No one can hear the message of the gospel apart from the Church in word and sacrament.
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spn82756
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Inevitably this is what happens with these threads. As Christians it seems as though we thrive in attacking other Christians that disagree with us.
Anyway…I’m Catholic because I believe that the CC holds the most complete truth available to us on earth. I also treasure the sacraments…especially reconciliation and the Eucharist. I have a great devotion to the Blessed Mother.
Now…that being said…I respect and fully accept Protestants as my brothers and sisters in Christ.
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tweetymom
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We should all accept one another as Christ accepts us. Thank you for your love, dear brother.Inevitably this is what happens with these threads. As Christians it seems as though we thrive in attacking other Christians that disagree with us.
Anyway…I’m Catholic because I believe that the CC holds the most complete truth available to us on earth. I also treasure the sacraments…especially reconciliation and the Eucharist. I have a great devotion to the Blessed Mother.
Now…that being said…I respect and fully accept Protestants as my brothers and sisters in Christ.
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spn82756
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Richard_Kastner
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Well, here’s your question again.
What is this question asking if not the basis for justification?
2Cor.5:16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
He has given to us, the church, the body of Christ, “the ministry of reconciliation” through the “word of reconciliation.” and that would be the bible.
It is true that the ministry of reconciliatin is given to the Church, but that church is comprised of individuals who through the power of the Holy Spirit are instructed to bring the message of Jesus to the world. This message cannot be restricted to a church building or to someone ordained. It is given to us all, because we all recieve gifts.
Eph.4:11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Look to 1Cor 12 for futher information on gifts of the Spirit.
There is nothing in the bible that I am aware of that says that grace is imparted through the reception of any sacrament.
Post #57, I said,
Certainly the CC is a part of His Church, but Lutherans define the Church as the Congregation of Believers, the Communion of Saints, not necessarily any one particular institution.
Yeah, typo, should have said just “offers”.
Scripture tells us it is through His Church we receive His Grace. The addendum is meant was meant to make clear that the Holy Spirit moves as He will, but the Church is Christ’s promise.
I don’t recall any part of scripture saying that Christ thought the Church was an encumbrance. In fact, it is quite the opposite. It is the vehicle with which Christ chose to make His word known, and His sacraments available.
I thank God that He made His Grace known to me by His word, by Baptism, and by the reception of His true Body and Blood. These all all available in the Church, as Christ intended.
No argument here.
Jon
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