Non Catholics did Jesus built a Church?

[wisdomseeker]

I decided to post this thread because it seems to be a great disagreement among Catholics and non Catholics about the Church.

as Catholics we know that Jesus really built a Church. the Church that is much like the Kingdom which Jesus spoke of in the NT. this Church is much like the Kingdom in Israel at the time of Solomon. This Church is Called “One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.” she rules from Rome and reigns into all nations. " A city on the Hill."

Catholics say Our Father. meaning it is not just me but it us and the Father.

St Peter said:
12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

non Catholics tell me what is your idea of Church spoken of by Our Lord, the Christ.

no need for arguments, i just want to understand your understanding of the Church Jesus spoke of .

B]God have Mercy on us all.

 

[Bill_Pick]

He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 * Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah,
the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon
son of Jonah. For flesh and blood * has not revealed this to

you, but my heavenly Father.
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this
rock I will build my church, * and the gates of the netherworld
shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. *
Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and
whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

LOOK AT VERSE 18, CHURCH NOT MORE THEN ONE

 

[Lizziebel]

Yes, he did so, and it is recorded in those verses. It is the founding of Jesus’ Church…of Christianity. I hadn’t thought beyond this in my Protestant days.

His Church is divided now…varied but unified Catholic Rites as well as Protestant denominations exist.

But as Christians we are all members of the Body of Christ.

By the way, Protestants also say the Our Father, or the Lord’s Prayer as it’s also called.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Good answers so far. i would like to hear from non Catholics. what is their idea of Church.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, he did so, and it is recorded in those verses. It is the founding of Jesus’ Church…of Christianity. I hadn’t thought beyond this in my Protestant days.

His Church is divided now…varied but unified Catholic Rites as well as Protestant denominations exist. (and the Orthodox)

But as Christians we are all members of the Body of Christ.

By the way, Protestants also say the Our Father, or the Lord’s Prayer as it’s also called.

I would largely agree with you here, with my addition in red.
Jon

 

[wisdomseeker]

I would largely agree with you here, with my addition in red.
Jon

hello jon.

i would like to know from you about the Church.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

 

[JonNC]

hello jon.

i would like to know from you about the Church.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

The invisable Church - the Body of Christ, which we join at our Baptism.
The visable church, currently wounded by schism and separation, the roots of which go back to the apostles, and the Patriarchs, including the Bishop of Rome.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

The invisable Church - the Body of Christ, which we join at our Baptism.
The visable church, currently wounded by schism and separation, the roots of which go back to the apostles, and the Patriarchs, including the Bishop of Rome.

Jon

I might also add that the church expands through the communion of saints - the Church Militant (of which we are now members) , and the Church Triumphant (of which, through Grace, we will join someday).

 

[wisdomseeker]

The invisable Church - the Body of Christ, which we join at our Baptism.
The visable church, currently wounded by schism and separation, the roots of which go back to the apostles, and the Patriarchs, including the Bishop of Rome.

Jon

thank you for your response. i hope others will give their view of the Church.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

 

[Lizziebel]

I would largely agree with you here, with my addition in red.
Jon

Thanks for the addition! Are the Orthodox a separate group of Christians, then, from Catholics and Protestants? I’d thought they were Catholic (Eastern Orthodox Catholic?)…

I’m also in agreement with your definition of the Church, both invisible and visible.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Thanks for the addition! Are the Orthodox a separate group of Christians, then, from Catholics and Protestants? I’d thought they were Catholic (Eastern Orthodox Catholic?)…

I’m also in agreement with your definition of the Church, both invisible and visible.

yes the EO is part of the Catholic Church. they are apart from us for while. but we are working on the union. they believe pretty much what the CC believes.

who is the visible True Church?

 

[Lizziebel]

That question is probably the one that spurs the most arguments. Who’s right? Who’s wrong? It seems to be much more of a Catholic concern, specifically, and it’s something that just was never part of my Protestant experience. We learn what we can, strive to do the best we can with what we know and keep on working to better our lives. As in, avoid sin, repent and amend our lives to avoid making the same sinful mistakes of the past, and do good for others. As for the rest, there are certainly many questions, and that’s ok. Hopefully one day, we’ll find out all the answers .

For me, it comes down to this:

I’m discovering that there are teachings and traditions of the Catholic Church that did get “lost in translation” so to speak, during the reform or sometime afterwards. And deeper explanations of teachings, which have been wonderful to discover in the Catholic Church. And those teachings and traditions have helped me greatly in a spiritual way.

 

[wisdomseeker]

That question is probably the one that spurs the most arguments. Who’s right? Who’s wrong? It seems to be much more of a Catholic concern, specifically, and it’s something that just was never part of my Protestant experience. We learn what we can, strive to do the best we can with what we know and keep on working to better our lives. As in, avoid sin, repent and amend our lives to avoid making the same sinful mistakes of the past, and do good for others. As for the rest, there are certainly many questions, and that’s ok. Hopefully one day, we’ll find out all the answers .

For me, it comes down to this:

I’m discovering that there are teachings and traditions of the Catholic Church that did get “lost in translation” so to speak, during the reform or sometime afterwards. And deeper explanations of teachings, which have been wonderful to discover in the Catholic Church. And those teachings and traditions have helped me greatly in a spiritual way.

i quite understand your position. i am happy to see that you have seen this. it is good to live as good people. but there is so much more to know. Obedience is one thing that has been misunderstood by many and has been almost forgotten.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

what church do you go to, if i may ask?

 

[NDfan]

Good answers so far. i would like to hear from non Catholics. what is their idea of Church.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

Wisdom if we read what Jesus actually built we see the word ekklesia being used. Ekklesia simply means a gathering or assembly. So Jesus was actually building an assembly or gathering of believers, on the confession of Peter that HE was and is in fact the Messiah. We tend to associate a physical building with the word church when in fact the building itself is not the church. It’s the place where Christians go to have church. Usually referring to the worship place as a sanctuary.

I see the church as a gathering or assemblance of all followers that profess Christ to be their Lord and Savior. It’s Apostolic in that we adhere to Apostolic teachings which come directly from Christ through the Apostles. It’s catholic in nature meaning universal which has no limitations on race, gender etc. Everyone universally that believes in Christ is welcome.

I don’t see church as a hierarchical structure as we read Christ forbidding this type of arrangement by commanding there to be no Lordship. I do believe the church has authoritative leaders that we should submit to with respect and obedience. But authority comes from the authority to teach Christ gave to HIS disciples. The teaching and serving responsibility of church leadership is spelled out in scripture by Paul as he lays out the criteria for Overseers, Elders, and Deacons. But we never read Paul or another Apostle command obedience to one centralized church location nor do we read the criteria of preaching being isolated to an Apostolic successor. We do however read churches appealing to the Jerusalem church because that’s where the Apostles were located and scripture really had not yet begun to circulate.

But as the church expanded into Rome we see the influence of the Roman government on the structure of the church leadership. Specifically the Emperor extending the title of Pontificate to the Bishop of Rome which in a sense marked that location as the head of all the church. But given the world was dominated by Rome that would make sense. Christ though certainly did not command this.

In the end when Christ returns to gather HIS bride HE will not go to Rome to get the Pope. Instead we as HIS followers will flock to HIS presence being caught up and taken from this horrific place dominated by satan. As Christ tells us there will be those that do not taste death until HIS return. But death is merely a transition from this life to the next.

PEACE

 

[wisdomseeker]

Wisdom if we read what Jesus actually built we see the word ekklesia being used. Ekklesia simply means a gathering or assembly. So Jesus was actually building an assembly or gathering of believers, on the confession of Peter that HE was and is in fact the Messiah. We tend to associate a physical building with the word church when in fact the building itself is not the church. It’s the place where Christians go to have church. Usually referring to the worship place as a sanctuary.

I see the church as a gathering or assemblance of all followers that profess Christ to be their Lord and Savior. It’s Apostolic in that we adhere to Apostolic teachings which come directly from Christ through the Apostles. It’s catholic in nature meaning universal which has no limitations on race, gender etc. Everyone universally that believes in Christ is welcome.

I don’t see church as a hierarchical structure as we read Christ forbidding this type of arrangement by commanding there to be no Lordship. I do believe the church has authoritative leaders that we should submit to with respect and obedience. But authority comes from the authority to teach Christ gave to HIS disciples. The teaching and serving responsibility of church leadership is spelled out in scripture by Paul as he lays out the criteria for Overseers, Elders, and Deacons. But we never read Paul or another Apostle command obedience to one centralized church location nor do we read the criteria of preaching being isolated to an Apostolic successor. We do however read churches appealing to the Jerusalem church because that’s where the Apostles were located and scripture really had not yet begun to circulate.

But as the church expanded into Rome we see the influence of the Roman government on the structure of the church leadership. Specifically the Emperor extending the title of Pontificate to the Bishop of Rome which in a sense marked that location as the head of all the church. But given the world was dominated by Rome that would make sense. Christ though certainly did not command this.

In the end when Christ returns to gather HIS bride HE will not go to Rome to get the Pope. Instead we as HIS followers will flock to HIS presence being caught up and taken from this horrific place dominated by satan. As Christ tells us there will be those that do not taste death until HIS return. But death is merely a transition from this life to the next.

PEACE

thank you for your post. so this is what Church is for you, correct?

**
Romans 13:1-2, “Let everyone be subject to the higher authorities, for there exists no authority except from GOD, AND THOSE WHO EXIST HAVE BEEN APPOINTED BY GOD (6). Therefore, he who resists the AUTHORITY resists the ordinance of GOD; and THEY THAT RESIST BRING ON THEMSELVES CONDEMNATION.” **

 

[NDfan]

thank you for your post. so this is what Church is for you, correct?

**
Romans 13:1-2, “Let everyone be subject to the higher authorities, for there exists no authority except from GOD, AND THOSE WHO EXIST HAVE BEEN APPOINTED BY GOD (6). Therefore, he who resists the AUTHORITY resists the ordinance of GOD; and THEY THAT RESIST BRING ON THEMSELVES CONDEMNATION.” **

Wisdom are you referring to your quote from Romans?? If so Romans 13 is not referring to church leadership but more government leadership. That’s why in verse 6 we are told that we pay taxes or more specifically phoros which in Greek refers to the the annual tax levied upon houses, lands, and persons.

As far as submitting to church leadership yes I do think that is important as I believe church leaders are called by GOD to HIS service. Just like I felt my calling to be a Deacon. I defer to our church leaders on matters of teaching especially when it comes to Holy Scripture. I don’t believe in private interpretation of scripture although I do believe we have the right to privately read scripture. Something the Roman Catholic church tried to control out of the council of Trent. That’s not meant in a disrespectful way as I believe the intentions were pure. That was to avoid what we have today which is who truly knows how many denominations we have.

But I also believe that our church leaders need to be challenged to make sure they are staying true to scripture. Otherwise it could be easy for someone to preach a false Gospel as we saw with folks like Marcion.

PEACE

 

[Bill_Pick]

i quite understand your position. i am happy to see that you have seen this. it is good to live as good people. but there is so much more to know. Obedience is one thing that has been misunderstood by many and has been almost forgotten.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

what church do you go to, if i may ask?

YES, I GO THE CHURCH THAT WAS STARTED IN 33AD AND HAS BEEN AROUND FOR ALMOST 2000 YEARS

 

[wisdomseeker]

Wisdom are you referring to your quote from Romans?? If so Romans 13 is not referring to church leadership but more government leadership. That’s why in verse 6 we are told that we pay taxes or more specifically phoros which in Greek refers to the the annual tax levied upon houses, lands, and persons.

As far as submitting to church leadership yes I do think that is important as I believe church leaders are called by GOD to HIS service. Just like I felt my calling to be a Deacon. I defer to our church leaders on matters of teaching especially when it comes to Holy Scripture. I don’t believe in private interpretation of scripture although I do believe we have the right to privately read scripture. Something the Roman Catholic church tried to control out of the council of Trent. That’s not meant in a disrespectful way as I believe the intentions were pure. That was to avoid what we have today which is who truly knows how many denominations we have.

But I also believe that our church leaders need to be challenged to make sure they are staying true to scripture. Otherwise it could be easy for someone to preach a false Gospel as we saw with folks like Marcion.

PEACE

so. you believe that Jesus did not build a Church. but left up to the individual to preach from the SS what they understand and build their own churches.

am i wrong to assume this?

**Romans 13:1-2, “Let everyone be subject to the higher authorities, for there exists no authority except from GOD, AND THOSE WHO EXIST HAVE BEEN APPOINTED BY GOD (6). Therefore, he who resists the AUTHORITY resists the ordinance of GOD; and THEY THAT RESIST BRING ON THEMSELVES CONDEMNATION.” **

 

[wisdomseeker]

YES, I GO THE CHURCH THAT WAS STARTED IN 33AD AND HAS BEEN AROUND FOR ALMOST 2000 YEARS

tell us how the Church came to be.

**
Romans 13:1-2, “Let everyone be subject to the higher authorities, for there exists no authority except from GOD, AND THOSE WHO EXIST HAVE BEEN APPOINTED BY GOD (6). Therefore, he who resists the AUTHORITY resists the ordinance of GOD; and THEY THAT RESIST BRING ON THEMSELVES CONDEMNATION.” **

 

[Bill_Pick]

IT WAS STARTED BY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST,HERE YOU CAN READ ABOUT FROM THE BIBLE

16 * Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah,
the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon
son of Jonah. For flesh and blood * has not revealed this to

you, but my heavenly Father.
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this
rock I will build my church, * and the gates of the netherworld
shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. *
Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and
whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." I HOPE THIS WILL HELP YOU