Non-Catholics: How do you know that the words of Jesus are true?

[Thorolfr]

The context of this really matters - this passage is not proof that St. Paul was a sexist idiot.

So what is the context of these other passages in Paul’s letters which do sound a little sexist to me:

Ephesians 5:22-24: Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior. 24 Just as the church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything, to their husbands.

Colossians 3:18: Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

1 Timothy 2: 11-12: Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. 12 I permit no woman[c] to teach or to have authority over a man;[d] she is to keep silent.

1 Corinthians 11:7-9: For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. 8 Indeed, man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for the sake of man.

 

[benjohnson]

So what is the context of these other passages in Paul’s letters which do sound a little sexist to me:

Ephesians 5:22-24: Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior. 24 Just as the church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything, to their husbands.

I see you deftly left out the rest of Ephesians.

It just as hard to be a husband. You’re to lay down your life for your wife and family! Not only in defense but in day to day cost.

“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.”

The relationship between wife and husband is intertwined with neither in a “superior” role - but in different roles. Just as husband and wife contribute differently to raising children.

 

[PRmerger]

Why do you ask this?

Someone who is fallible can write something that is not erroneous.

LOL!

What you have described is nothing but the Catholic definition of infallibility.

So…if you believe that a fallible man (Paul) can write something that has no errors, due to the guidance of the Holy Spirit…

you believe in…

the charism of infallibility.

 

[Thorolfr]

I see you deftly left out the rest of Ephesians.

It just as hard to be a husband. You’re to lay down your life for your wife and family! Not only in defense but in day to day cost.

“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.”

The relationship between wife and husband is intertwined with neither in a “superior” role - but in different roles. Just as husband and wife contribute differently to raising children.

Can you really say that these passages in Paul’s letters do not describe women in an inferior position? How else can we interpret a passage that says that wives are to “be subject to your husbands” and that the husband “is the head of the wife” (Ephesians 5), or that women should learn “with full submission” and not “have authority over a man” (1 Timothy 2), etc. All of these passages describe woman as being subordinate to men, not equal to them and the men are indeed described as being in a “superior” role. These passages describe a hierarchical society, not a a completely egalitarian one with everyone only having different but complementary roles.

 

[AbideWithMe]

LOL!

What you have described is nothing but the Catholic definition of infallibility.

So…if you believe that a fallible man (Paul) can write something that has no errors, due to the guidance of the Holy Spirit…

you believe in…

the charism of infallibility.

PR—I believe the Catholic definition of infallibility, IIRC, also means that, when the gift is being exercised, the person cannot err; not just that he has not erred, but that he cannot. For an example of the difference, a person could take a series of tests a hundred times, a thousand times, ten thousand times, and each time give 100% correct answers; that person has been inerrant on all those tests. But he is still not infallible (as Catholicism means it), he is still not incapable of error. He may give a wrong answer on any subsequent test.

 

[PRmerger]

Has the issue of the canon ever really been settled?

The 27 book canon of the NT has.

And it appears you agree with the CC’s discernment on this?

 

[PRmerger]

Paul’s letters, in my opinion, have errors and he is only giving his opinion, especially when he talks about women. For example:

1 Corinthians 14: 33-36: (As in all the churches of the saints, 34 women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. 36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached?)

Firstly, how do you know it’s erroneous? What are you using as the measuring stick? What is he contradicting?

Secondly, then how do you know that his other statements are correct? For example, do you believe that he got it right when he said, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”?

If he did get it right, how do you know?

 

[rcwitness]

PR—I believe the Catholic definition of infallibility, IIRC, also means that, when the gift is being exercised, the person cannot err; not just that he has not erred, but that he cannot. For an example of the difference, a person could take a series of tests a hundred times, a thousand times, ten thousand times, and each time give 100% correct answers; that person has been inerrant on all those tests. But he is still not infallible (as Catholicism means it), he is still not incapable of error. He may give a wrong answer on any subsequent test.

2 Peter 3:15-17Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

15*And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,16speaking of thisa]" style=“box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;”>[a]*as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.

 

[Thorolfr]

Firstly, how do you know it’s erroneous? What are you using as the measuring stick? What is he contradicting?

Secondly, then how do you know that his other statements are correct? For example, do you believe that he got it right when he said, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”?

If he did get it right, how do you know?

I don’t know that any of Paul’s other statements are categorically correct because I don’t believe that he was infallible. I just have to use my best judgement to decide which of his statements are convincing to me.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t know that any of Paul’s other statements are categorically correct because I don’t believe that he was infallible. I just have to use my best judgement to decide which of his statements are convincing to me.

Using what, though?

How do you know that your sins are atoned by Christ’s death? Perhaps the Bible got it wrong.

How do you know that Jesus walked on water? Rose from the dead? Knew he was going to be betrayed?

 

[Thorolfr]

The relationship between wife and husband is intertwined with neither in a “superior” role - but in different roles. Just as husband and wife contribute differently to raising children.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a couple in my ELCA church recently. They told me that they used to belong to the LCMS and at one time when they moved, they transferred their membership from one LCMS congregation to another one near their new home. But when they got to the new congregation, they were surprised to discover that women were not allowed to vote there. Only the men in the congregation could vote on its affairs. So some LCMS congregations do or did take Paul’s words to heart.

 

[Thorolfr]

Using what, though?

How do you know that your sins are atoned by Christ’s death? Perhaps the Bible got it wrong.

How do you know that Jesus walked on water? Rose from the dead? Knew he was going to be betrayed?

How do we know anything? For example, the Taoist teacher Zhuang Zhou (4th century BC) speaking of himself wrote:

“Once Zhuang Zhou dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn’t know that he was Zhuang Zhou. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuang Zhou. But he didn’t know if he was Zhuang Zhou who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Zhuang Zhou.”

 

[SyCarl]

The 27 book canon of the NT has.

And it appears you agree with the CC’s discernment on this?

The Ethiopian Church has a larger New Testament.

 

[AbideWithMe]

2 Peter 3:15-17Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

15*And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,16speaking of thisa]" style=“box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;”>[a]*as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.

Rcwitness, I’m not sure of your point? I think Picky Picky’s question was to bring out the difference between inerrancy (in a specific writing) and infallibility, particularly infallibility as Catholicism uses the term: incapable of error, not just without error. Did you see a problem with me saying that?

 

[AbideWithMe]

“Once Zhuang Zhou dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn’t know that he was Zhuang Zhou. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuang Zhou. But he didn’t know if he was Zhuang Zhou who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Zhuang Zhou.”

I hate when that happens.

 

[rcwitness]

Rcwitness, I’m not sure of your point? I think Picky Picky’s question was to bring out the difference between inerrancy (in a specific writing) and infallibility, particularly infallibility as Catholicism uses the term: incapable of error, not just without error. Did you see a problem with me saying that?

Peter recognizes all of Paul’s letters as Scripture!

“… as he does in all his letters.”

Not just what he has already written and Peter read.

 

[PRmerger]

The Ethiopian Church has a larger New Testament.

What NT canon do you go by? And why?

 

[PRmerger]

How do we know anything?

When you profess the creed at your worship service on Sunday, are you lying?

If not, then how do you know that what you believe is true?

For example, the Taoist teacher Zhuang Zhou (4th century BC) speaking of himself wrote:

“Once Zhuang Zhou dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn’t know that he was Zhuang Zhou. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuang Zhou. But he didn’t know if he was Zhuang Zhou who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Zhuang Zhou.”

How do you know he said that?

 

[PRmerger]

Can you really say that these passages in Paul’s letters do not describe women in an inferior position? How else can we interpret a passage that says that wives are to “be subject to your husbands” and that the husband “is the head of the wife” (Ephesians 5), or that women should learn “with full submission” and not “have authority over a man” (1 Timothy 2), etc. All of these passages describe woman as being subordinate to men, not equal to them and the men are indeed described as being in a “superior” role. These passages describe a hierarchical society, not a a completely egalitarian one with everyone only having different but complementary roles.

How do you know that women aren’t inferior?

 

[PRmerger]

Perhaps a woman could not stand “in persona Chrisit” when Christianity was still at the stage of a mustard seed, but “when it is sown, it grows and becomes the greatest of all shrubs, and puts forth large branches, so that the birds of the air can make nests in its shade” (Mark4:30-32). So now that some branches of Christianity have evolved and grown into great shrubs, it’s appropriate, in my opinion, that woman be ordained. We don’t have to remain at the mustard seed stage forever

How do you know that when it is sown it grows and becomes the greatest of all shrubs?