Non-catholics, How do you "Tell it to the Church"

[Peter_J]

But what term is the best/right one to use to describe the category of people one wants to engage?

Well, the category of people I want to engage really varies from situation to situation. Sometimes I phrase a question “Catholics, … ?” Other times the question might be in the form “Orthodox, … ?” or “Protestants, … ?” or “Non-Catholic Christians, … ?” or “Non-Catholics, … ?”. Or “Non-Christians, … ?”. Or “Americans, … ?” or “Non-Americans, … ?”. (I generally don’t have much need to ask questions starting with “Non-Orthodox, … ?” but I’ve been on forums where quite a lot of questions were of the form “Non-Orthodox, … ?” or “Non-Orthodox Christians, … ?” as the case may be.)

Or perhaps “Bob, Mike, Sue, and Carol, … ?”

etc.

Given the varieties of situations, perhaps the best answer to “But what term is the best/right one to use to describe the category of people one wants to engage?” is to use common sense.

I suppose identifying people by what they are not can be perceived as insulting

Depends. “Non-man” seems pretty insulting.

But terms like “non-Catholics”, “non-Orthodox”, “non-Americans” etc. might be appropriate or inappropriate depending on the situation. For example, if someone went up to a conservative Lutheran minister and said “I’m a Presbyterian. Can I receive communion at your liturgy?” and if the minister replied “Sorry I don’t commune non-Lutherans”, I wouldn’t consider his use of “non-Lutheran” to be offensive.

Perhaps one of us should start a new thread about this?

Only if that person has way too much time on his or her hands.

 

[sixofseven]

Nice Post.
I especially want to back up the statement about not attacking.
So far this thread has been very civil and informative. I hope we all keep it this way.
A case in point is the exchange between myself and NDfan that seems to be infromative both directions.

The big reason for posting this is that we get into sooo many debates here where we go back and forth among trying to interpret Scripture. So, as sixofseven has pointed out, it really comes down to a case of authority and “Tell it to the Church” is kind of the passage that tells us how to handle these issues. So I am truly interested in learning how our Bible believing protestant brothers look at and treat this command from Our Lord.

Peace
James

Thanks James,

Upon further investigation, in line with the fact that there was only originally one church, is that Jesus says ‘tell it to the church’, not ‘your’ church or ‘a’ church. The Greek translation uses the words ‘ho ekklesia’ (the church) - interestingly, ‘ho’ is ‘the definite article’, ‘ekklesia’ is a genitive singular feminine noun for a religious congregation (church) - so there is only one place we can take it, the one church.

 

[SonofMonica]

The obvious next question for me is “Okay, so you tell it to the [local congregational] church. They cast out the offender. But what’s to stop the next [local congregational] church down the road from accepting the person into their fold?”

In other words, what teeth does the punishment (casting out, excommunication, whatever you want to call it) really have unless it is done by the only Church there is?

This passage of scripture and the lack of a non-Catholic explanation to this question was actually very instrumental to me choosing to become Catholic. [And with God’s grace I will be in full communion by Easter, if not before]. So I’m watching this thread with some interest. Thanks all for the great responses.

 

[Peter_J]

The obvious next question for me is “Okay, so you tell it to the [local congregational] church. They cast out the offender. But what’s to stop the next [local congregational] church down the road from accepting the person into their fold?”

In other words, what teeth does the punishment (casting out, excommunication, whatever you want to call it) really have unless it is done by the only Church there is?

Excellent point, SonofMonica. There must be … oh, at least 50 different Christian churches that I could get to in under 15 minutes. That doesn’t sound too much like the situation in the early Church.

 

[SonofMonica]

Excellent point, SonofMonica. There must be … oh, at least 50 different Christian churches that I could get to in under 15 minutes. That doesn’t sound too much like the situation in the early Church.

Thanks, Peter. Authority issues like these grasp my attention, and I think it’s because of my line of work.

As an attorney, if I can’t cite cases that control in my jurisdiction, the judge will say “well that’s great that a judge in New Hampshire said that, but I’m really only interested in what the next highest court in our state has said.”

Likewise, if I say “Judge, I think X” then the judge will say “I don’t care what you think.” And that makes sense–my job is to advocate on behalf of existing law or for a change in existing law, but I can never say “the law is X” without some previous authority handed down. And I do not possess the authority to express an opinion about what the law is. It is what it is. And I do not decide what it is.

And when you work that way, you learn to think that way–you question every assertion that is not supported by facts. You demand a citation for every declarative sentence. And you realize that whatever citation is given must be issued by someone who has authority in that jurisdiction. It not only matters that it was previously said by someone, but that it was previously said by someone who possesses the authority, right and power to say it. So goes my understanding of the church [now] as well.

 

[Canto]

…since the word “church” is not capitalized within the text. By capitalizing the word “church,” and making it “Church” you are attempting to force onto the text a meaning it does not have…

Just a thought, but weren’t the scriptures originally all in capital letters

 

[SSTeacher]

Just a thought, but weren’t the scriptures originally all in capital letters

Interesting question. I don’t know for sure. Contarini probably knows the answer.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[BornAgain11]

I am interested in the “Protestant” take on the following passage. I posted it on a thread relating to OSAS and that is the context of the notes in orange.
But in general, I would like to know how non-catholic Christians, with their view of church being the “Body of believers led by the Holy Spirit” with “no heirachial authority”, understand this passage.
Remember please that, if a person within your own faith community were believed by you to be teaching false doctrine, he would be sinning against you by fomenting discord within the body of Christ.
I believe this to be compelling evidence for A Visible and Authoritative Church. What do you see?

Matthew 18: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
(Note: Teaching False doctrine is a sin. We, as your Christian Bothers are compelled to tell you that it is a sin. We cannot just agree to disagree)
16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.
(Note: We have brought “2 or three others” just as you have done. There is no resolution. Therefore there is but one recourse left to ANY TRUE follower of Christ)
17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (Singular); and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
(So Christ recognized the need for earthly authority and instituted a Church that we are to listen to and obey because the Church has the power to “Bind and Loose - Whatever” in Heaven and On Earth.

(note: If I don’t respond quickly please don’t worry - I have family health issues that sometimes don’t allow me to read and post regularly)

Peace
James

Our only authority is Jesus Christ who is the chief cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20) Jesus is the “Rock” upon the church is founded. (Cor 10:4, Peter 2:4-8 Pslam 118:22, Isaish 28:16) Christ is our God Head to which we turn. Ministers/Pastors are only men just as the Pope and Priest are. We are not to put our faith in mere men because they too have sinned and have fallen short of the grace of God. (Romans 3:23) Sure they are to be a Shepard and lead their flock in the right direction. We need to keep our eyes focused on our Heavenly Father. If they lead their flock astray they are also more accountable. Matthew 23:13-16 Thats why we must equip ourselves with the word of God, be able to weed out the good from the bad- have discernment to know if they are teaching a false gospel. For many will rise up in His name teaching a false doctrine. Matthew 24:4-5.

I think I answered your question?! If not let me know! Blessings to you in Jesus’ mighty name!

 

[Hisalone]

I am interested in the “Protestant” take on the following passage. I posted it on a thread relating to OSAS and that is the context of the notes in orange.
But in general, I would like to know how non-catholic Christians, with their view of church being the “Body of believers led by the Holy Spirit” with “no heirachial authority”, understand this passage.
Remember please that, if a person within your own faith community were believed by you to be teaching false doctrine, he would be sinning against you by fomenting discord within the body of Christ.
I believe this to be compelling evidence for A Visible and Authoritative Church. What do you see?

Matthew 18: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
(Note: Teaching False doctrine is a sin. We, as your Christian Bothers are compelled to tell you that it is a sin. We cannot just agree to disagree)
16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.
(Note: We have brought “2 or three others” just as you have done. There is no resolution. Therefore there is but one recourse left to ANY TRUE follower of Christ)
17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (Singular); and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
(So Christ recognized the need for earthly authority and instituted a Church that we are to listen to and obey because the Church has the power to “Bind and Loose - Whatever” in Heaven and On Earth.

(note: If I don’t respond quickly please don’t worry - I have family health issues that sometimes don’t allow me to read and post regularly)

Peace
James

James why is it so difficult for you to understand.
Baptist Christians take it to the Baptist Church, Methodist Christians take it to the Methodist Chruch, Quaker Christians take it to the Quaker Church etc etc. Only Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is The Church other Christians do not believe that.

 

[jlhargus]

Our only authority is Jesus Christ who is the chief cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20) Jesus is the “Rock” upon the church is founded. (Cor 10:4, Peter 2:4-8 Pslam 118:22, Isaish 28:16) Christ is our God Head to which we turn. Ministers/Pastors are only men just as the Pope and Priest are. We are not to put our faith in mere men because they too have sinned and have fallen short of the grace of God. (Romans 3:23) Sure they are to be a Shepard and lead their flock in the right direction. We need to keep our eyes focused on our Heavenly Father. If they lead their flock astray they are also more accountable. Matthew 23:13-16 Thats why we must equip ourselves with the word of God, be able to weed out the good from the bad- have discernment to know if they are teaching a false gospel. For many will rise up in His name teaching a false doctrine. Matthew 24:4-5.

I think I answered your question?! If not let me know! Blessings to you in Jesus’ mighty name!

JL: So Christ should have said take it to the bible and if you can’t agree on scripture start another church.

 

[jlhargus]

James why is it so difficult for you to understand.
Baptist Christians take it to the Baptist Church, Methodist Christians take it to the Methodist Chruch, Quaker Christians take it to the Quaker Church etc etc. Only Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is The Church other Christians do not believe that.

JL: So which one do you take it to?

 

[Hisalone]

JL: So Christ should have said take it to the bible and if you can’t agree on scripture start another church.

In the OT scripture was always used to correct the church, the church was never used to correct scripture. This pattern holds true today.

 

[Hisalone]

JL: So which one do you take it to?

Im a nonDenom so I would take it to my nonDenom church.

 

[jlhargus]

In the OT scripture was always used to correct the church, the church was never used to correct scripture. This pattern holds true today.

JL: Have you an example of that?

 

[jlhargus]

Im a nonDenom so I would take it to my nonDenom church.

JL: So if you dispute with one who belongs to another nondenom who do you take it to. I to used to belong to a nondenom, they all teach differently, that’s why they are non-denom

 

[Hisalone]

JL: So if you dispute with one who belongs to another nondenom who do you take it to. I to used to belong to a nondenom, they all teach differently, that’s why they are non-denom

Then you would take it to the offenders church. The 1st century church was nonDenom they tuaght differently also.

 

[Canto]

Our only authority is Jesus Christ who is the chief cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20) Jesus is the “Rock” upon the church is founded. (Cor 10:4, Peter 2:4-8 Pslam 118:22, Isaish 28:16) Christ is our God Head to which we turn. Ministers/Pastors are only men just as the Pope and Priest are. We are not to put our faith in mere men because they too have sinned and have fallen short of the grace of God. (Romans 3:23) Sure they are to be a Shepard and lead their flock in the right direction. We need to keep our eyes focused on our Heavenly Father. If they lead their flock astray they are also more accountable. Matthew 23:13-16 Thats why we must equip ourselves with the word of God, be able to weed out the good from the bad- have discernment to know if they are teaching a false gospel. For many will rise up in His name teaching a false doctrine. Matthew 24:4-5.

I think I answered your question?! If not let me know! Blessings to you in Jesus’ mighty name!

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Matthew 16:18 And so I say to you, you are **Rock **(Greek masculine), and upon this rock (Greek feminine) I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

*In Greek, when a pronoun is used with the word and (kai), the pronoun refers back to the preceding noun. So the second rock Christ refers to is the same as the first one. *

2 Thess 1:14 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, whether by word or by our epistle.

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, you younger members, be subject to the presbyters.

 

[Hisalone]

JL: Have you an example of that?

Josiah 2Chronicles

 

[Contarini]

Interesting question. I don’t know for sure. Contarini probably knows the answer.

Cordially,
Mick

Yes–capitalization as distinct from lowercase is a much later scribal innovation. In fact, in the NT at least the original texts didn’t even have word divisions, I believe.

Edwin

 

[jlhargus]

Josiah 2Chronicles

JL: Well at lest you have narrowed it from the OT to 36 chapters of 2Chronicles. Can you narrow that down to something more specific. I don’t have time to look for a needle in a hay stack, especially since there is no needle.

DT 17:8-12 8: If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose; 9: And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and inquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment: 10: And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee: 11: According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left. 12: And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.
MT 18:17-18 17: And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18: Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The only thing I found in 2Chron was taking it to those appointed: 2Chron19:8 Moreover in Jerusalem did Jehoshaphat set of the Levites, and of the priests, and of the chief of the fathers of Israel, for the judgment of the LORD, and for controversies, when they returned to Jerusalem. 9 And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and with a perfect heart. 10 And what cause soever shall come to you of your brethren that dwell in your cities, between blood and blood, between law and commandment, statutes and judgments, ye shall even warn them that they trespass not against the LORD, and so wrath come upon you, and upon your brethren: this do, and ye shall not trespass. 11 And, behold, Amariah the chief priest is over you in all matters of the LORD; and Zebadiah the son of Ishmael, the ruler of the house of Judah, for all the king’s matters: also the Levites shall be officers before you. Deal courageously, and the LORD shall be with the good.

Jn 11:47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. 53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.