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jlhargus
Guest
JL: I agree it was not a denomination and that is still the case. Have you examples of differing teachings? Please be specific and don’t say the NT or Acts.
- Status
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JRKH
Guest
Actually I don’t see any answer here to the question posed in the OP.Our only authority is Jesus Christ who is the chief cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20) Jesus is the “Rock” upon the church is founded. (Cor 10:4, Peter 2:4-8 Pslam 118:22, Isaish 28:16) Christ is our God Head to which we turn. Ministers/Pastors are only men just as the Pope and Priest are. We are not to put our faith in mere men because they too have sinned and have fallen short of the grace of God. (Romans 3:23) Sure they are to be a Shepard and lead their flock in the right direction. We need to keep our eyes focused on our Heavenly Father. If they lead their flock astray they are also more accountable. Matthew 23:13-16 Thats why we must equip ourselves with the word of God, be able to weed out the good from the bad- have discernment to know if they are teaching a false gospel. For many will rise up in His name teaching a false doctrine. Matthew 24:4-5.
I think I answered your question?! If not let me know!Blessings to you in Jesus’ mighty name!
What I do see here is theology which is fine but does not answer HOW you obey Christ’s instruction in Matthew 18
If Jesus is our “only Authority”, then why didn’t Jesus say “Tell it to Me” instead of “Tell it to the Church”?
Peace
James
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JRKH
Guest
Hisalone,
I guess I find it hard to understand because I do not see Christ telling us to “Tell it to A Church”.
I find it difficult because in order for The Church, The Body of Christ, to be One as He and the Father are one, we need to ALL believe the same things. That is what St Paul Exhorts us to when he says in in his letters to “Be of One Mind”.
That being said, the reason I posed this question the way I did was to have a friendly and Christian dialoge about how non-catholic Christians view this passage.
I appreciate what you say above about each taking it to their own church, but we can also see that defferent communities even within the same denomination can have different takes on things. So I am trying to discuss this on a “step by step” basis. If I recall correctly, you and I had a similar discussion some time back did we not?
Peace
James
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JRKH
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BornAgain11
Guest
Matthew 16:18 And so I say to you, you are **Rock **(Greek masculine), and upon this rock (Greek feminine) I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
*In Greek, when a pronoun is used with the word and (kai), the pronoun refers back to the preceding noun. So the second rock Christ refers to is the same as the first one. *
–I’m well aware of the “Petrine theory” that is a standard Roman Catholic teaching. Its all in how you interperate the “key passage” of Scripture in which Jesus stated " you are Peter on this rock I will build MY church…I give you the keys ot the kindom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven" Matt 16:18-19 However, a careful study of this passage and other scriptures reveals something quite different. Actually in the original Greek text Jesus’ statement is actually a play on words. The Greek word for “Peter” is Petros (means small stone). And the Greek word for rock is Petra (meaning huge rock or Mt.) The Bible clearly shows that JESUS CHRIST is the ROCK upon which the Church was founded again see 1 Cor 10:4, 1 Peter 2:4-8, Pslam 118:22 Isaiah 28:16. Jesus was referring to Himself and his teachings as the Petra on which the church was to be founded and acknowledging Peter (a petros) as one of the foundation stones. This agrees with other scriptures that show the Chruch was not founded upon Peter alone but was "build on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief conerstone (Ephesians 2:20).
*In Greek, when a pronoun is used with the word and (kai), the pronoun refers back to the preceding noun. So the second rock Christ refers to is the same as the first one. *
–I’m well aware of the “Petrine theory” that is a standard Roman Catholic teaching. Its all in how you interperate the “key passage” of Scripture in which Jesus stated " you are Peter on this rock I will build MY church…I give you the keys ot the kindom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven" Matt 16:18-19 However, a careful study of this passage and other scriptures reveals something quite different. Actually in the original Greek text Jesus’ statement is actually a play on words. The Greek word for “Peter” is Petros (means small stone). And the Greek word for rock is Petra (meaning huge rock or Mt.) The Bible clearly shows that JESUS CHRIST is the ROCK upon which the Church was founded again see 1 Cor 10:4, 1 Peter 2:4-8, Pslam 118:22 Isaiah 28:16. Jesus was referring to Himself and his teachings as the Petra on which the church was to be founded and acknowledging Peter (a petros) as one of the foundation stones. This agrees with other scriptures that show the Chruch was not founded upon Peter alone but was "build on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief conerstone (Ephesians 2:20).
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JRKH
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BornAgain11
Guest
“I also tell you this: If two of you agree down here on earth concering anything you ask, my Father in heaven will do it for you. For where two or three gather together because they are mine, I am there among them.” Matthew 18:19-20
So—this verse is saying that where Believers are so Jesus will be also. Therefore when you “tell it to the church” you are also telling the Lord directly because he is dwelling there. You can feel the presence of the Holy Spirit when you gather together as one body in Christ.
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JRKH
Guest
hhhhmmmmmm…
So - In Old testament times Scripture was used to correct the Churh and not the other way around -
even though during much of the “OT times” the Books were still being written?
Sounds sort of like saying the the US constitutional convention used the contitution to correct the contstitutional convention.
Actually I do uderstand what you are trying to say and I basically agree with it. Sacred Scriptures are of crucial importance to anyone who wishes to be a disciple of Christ.
However, when Jesus came and founded His Church he DID tell us to take our issues to “The Church”. A Church to which He gave teh Keys and the Authority to Bind and Loose. This is Scriptural - It is biblical.
The Early Christians did just that. They took issues to their local Churches and got them resolved. The Bishops of the local Churches would keep in touch with each other and communicate various decisions and discuss issues. If a particularly sticky issue came up where one region was teaching one way and another something different, the Bishops would even meet to pray and discuss the matter so as to determine what the Holy Spirit willed. Then that decision was promulgated across all of the regions of the Church thus maintaining unity - Obeying the Biblical call to “Be of One Mind”.
I think that this is where the NCC (Non-catholic Christians) falter - in unity. Yes they believe in Jesus and are trying to do the Father’s Will - Praise be God. Yes they believe in the authenticity and inspiration of Scripture and, they also hold to the authority of the Holy Spirit in guiding them in understanding Scripture. All of which are fine Christian things.
But when the issues of dispute come up they cannot universally resolve them with one accord. Thereby failing to “Be of One Mind” as Christ prayed we be.
Each claims guidance by Scripture and the Holy Spirit.
Yet, somehow, this “One Holy Spirit” of the “One Living God” who wants us to “Be one as he and the Father are one”, cannot seem to give each group the same answer.
And Finally - ALL the different groups, ALL claiming Bible authority and Spirit leadership cannot come together in one big meeting to hammer out ALL of their differences so that they may truly speak with ONE MIND as Jesus wishes his disciples to do.
Instead there is born yet another new church group.
Yes - In the Early church there can be seen much greater autonomy for many reasons. The fact that the Church was illegal, the great distances involved, the newness of the doctrines and practices, the numbers of questions being raised by the faithful and the Church trying to give good answers when there was not even a NT canon yet.
Yet through ALL of that, the Church held together in Doctrine and teaching. Maintaining One Faith, One Church, One people by holding that The Church, as God’s instrument, and with God’s authority as passed down by the Apostles and their successors, made the final and universal decisions on matters of faith and morals.
Peace
James
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JRKH
Guest
So -
Would you mind sharing with me what the process would be in your community for dealing with a person seen to be teaching a false doctrine?
Peace
James
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JRKH
Guest
Well - We are getting abit off topic here but let me just say that, in all likelyhood Jesus never said Petros or Petra. Jesus spoke Aramaic. In Aramaic the word ofr Rock (large OR small is Kepha. Therefore the correct rendering of the verse in Aramaic would be
Thou art Kepha and upn this kepha I will build my Church.
As to the Petros/petra issue this has been dealt with on a number of other threads. It basically boils down to a grammatical issue.
I’ll say no more on it since it is off topic for this thread.
Peace
James
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BornAgain11
Guest
I actually have been in a church where the Pastor was teaching a false gospel, the congergation had knowledge of the Bible (as every Christian should) and the Pastor was asked to step down by the Elders of the church.
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BornAgain11
Guest
This was in response to Canto not sure why the “quote” didnt work for it. Also I was referring to the original Greek text of the scripture itself.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
If we read through the entire chapter, instead of pulling a verse, or passage out, to support a view, we see that Christ was speaking specifically to the disciples. There were times He preached to a multitude, but often times he elaborated for His disciples. Verse 1 specifically tells us, this was a conversation between the Lord and His disciples.
Prior to the instruction to take an offender to the Church, He said take one or two with you, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. Now if we apply the interpretation, as you’ve stated it, Christ was already among them because they were already in the presence of the “Church” by being before two or three witnesses who had gathered to help a brother. But that’s not the case, when we take the passage in context, because He said, “And if he will not hear them: tell the church.”
When He spoke about two agreeing, He was speaking to men He had appointed into positions to teach the Gospel. Right after telling them,“And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican”, He repeats the words He spoke when He said He was building His Church: “Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.” Next He said, " Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning anything whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven." This was being said to articulate the authority He was giving them. Please note in verse 19, Christ said, “Again I say to YOU , that if two of YOU…” He was speaking to His disciples, that He had appointed. He did not say, “…if two believers shall consent…”
To explain to them, so that they had confidence, He told them, “For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” As I said, if we used your interpretation, it would not have been necessary to take them to the Church, if two or three witnesses gathered to approach an offending brother.
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BornAgain11
Guest
The churches during the time of the Bible (NT) consisted of a handful of believers…not like the churches we see today. That is also why so many people are going back to Bible Rooted churches and starting home based churches with a small intimate group of people that can study and learn and grow together in the word of God.
The verse that I stated applies exactly to what I stated above. As does the whole verse 18…it applies to all people not just who he was directly talking to. If that was the case then we wouldn’t follow any of the Bible…we would say “well that was meant for Peter or John not for me.”
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
While you did respond, you didn’t address the points as I’ve raised them, in my opinion. You have reiterated your interpretation, without explanation. When two or three witnesses gathered together to rebuke an offender, why was it necessary to tell the Church, if the Church was two or three gathered together?
The Churches during the time of the Bible, might have well been handful of believers, even though I believe they might have been larger than we picture in our minds.
Act 2:41 They therefore that received his word were baptized: and there were added in that day about three thousand souls.
Act 4:4 But many of them who had heard the word believed: and the number of the men was made five thousand.
The Church was growing, quickly, even though they had no Bible as we have today. But that’s not my point. Those handful of believers, scattered across Asia, were receiving their instructions from the Apostles, evident by the letters and epistles written and sent to them. The message was the same for each Church.
**Eph 4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.
1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
Rom 15:5 May the God of steadfastness and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus,
Rom 15:6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
Rom 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function,
Rom 12:5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body. And be thankful.**
If we reasoned, as you do, that small groups studying scriptures was the way to go, we have a problem. There are many denominations, of small groups, studying scriptures for themselves. There are many denominations coming up with different interpretations and doctrinal differences, according to their interpretation. Is this being of the same mind and judgment? Is this being in full accord and one mind?
Many of St. Paul’s writings were corrections made to Churches. They were not supporting a slightly different view according to each individual group’s interpretation of the truth they had been taught.
If we carefully read the scriptures, we do see there were times Christ spoke to multitudes and other times He specifically spoke to the Apostles. We cannot ignore what was meant for Peter or John, as you say, because it gives us insight into Church authority, so we know how and why appointed men do what they do. They were not instructions for any reader to decide to appoint themselves or others. Scriptures tell us of Apostolic succession.
**Act 1:25 To take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas hath by transgression fallen, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave them lot, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
1Ti 3:1 A faithful saying: If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth good work.
1Ti 3:8 Deacons in like manner: chaste, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre:
1Ti 5:17 Let the priests that rule well be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.
1Ti 5:22 Impose not hands lightly upon any man, neither be partaker of other men’s sins. Keep thyself chaste.
Act 14:23 (14:22) And when they had ordained to them priests in every church and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed.
2Ti 2:2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men who shall be fit to teach others also.
Tit 1:5 For this cause I left thee in Crete: that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee:**
I notice some try to distance themselves by calling themselves “non-denominational”. It is still a group of believers who follow their own doctrines, that are different from the many denominational groups that exist, thus making them another denomination.
The term “Catholic Church” was first documented in 106AD. This was just a couple of years after St. John had finished writing Revelations, which was estimated to have been written around 100AD. The term “Catholic Church” was used by St. Ignatius, who was a disciple of St. John’s. He was also appointed by St. Peter.
In the beginning, believers were called “the Way”, which transpired into “Christians”, which was articulated into “Catholic Church”. It was not non-denominational. From 106AD, there are writings from ONE Church. Where are the writings of the multi-denominational Churches people keep claiming existed? They didn’t start appearing until the reformation that took place in the 1500s. Prior to that, there are none, none that any Church of today will claim affliation with.
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SonofMonica
Guest
Magnificent post. Thank you very much.
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BornAgain11
Guest
First off I really didn’t read all of this. Sorry. Secondly we as Christians have the ability to read and understand the Bible!!! You have to ask for the gift of interpretation. Many athiests have read the Bible and have no understanding on what Christ was talking about. But when you ask and receive the gift to comprehend it sheds a whole new light. You look at it differently and with eyes wide open. Point-you do not have to have a Priest to read it for you and make you feel like you can’t understand it.
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: The Church is BOTH visible, in her SENT ministers and people, and invisible. As a Catholic convert from a non-denominational fundamentalist Bible Church, this is my Scriptural understanding of the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH. For emphases I added the CAPITAL WORDS. Maybe you can give scripture for your invisible church? Sorry about the length, at one time it was one paragraph. I never stop learning.
Scripture indicates, to be a valid minister one must be SENT, [Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 how shall they preach EXCEPT THEY BE SENT? [Can an invisiable church SEND anyone?] Lk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that HE went out into a mountain to pray, and CONTINUED ALL NIGHT IN PRAYER to God. 13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and OF THEM HE CHOSE TWELVE, whom also he NAMED APOSTLES; JN 17:18 As you have SENT me into the world I also SENT them into the world 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE CONSECRATED IN TRUTH. 20 I do not pray for these alone but for those who will BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD 21 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE as you Father are in me and I in you THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE you SENT ME.] Christ is praying for one specific visible sent group the Apostles Fellowship, whom he consecrated in truth. Hearing their word and being one in fellowship, with THEM, the world may believe the Father sent him, can an invisable church do that? I don’t think Christ meant, he would only be with that fellowship and it would only be one, just while the apostles were alive, but to the end of the world. [Mt 28:16 THE ELEVEN disciples 18 Jesus spoke to THEM, ALL POWER IS GIVEN TO ME in heaven and in earth 19 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 TEACHING to observe ALL things whatever I have COMMANDED you I AM WITH YOU always even TO THE END.] Can an invisiable church, do that? The great commission to the Church, the apostles fellowship. Christ to whom all power in heaven and earth is given, sent with his authority the apostles to TEACH ALL to observe what he taught, they were to go to all nations (universal, catholic). Only the apostles were sent to teach all nations, with the authority of Christ. Christ promised to be with them till the end of the world. Those individuals would not be around till the end, but their SENT successors in the Apostolic Fellowship would, by passing on their authority to teach, sanctify and rule by laying on of hands from bishop to bishop till the end.
[LK 22:29 I appoint you A KINGDOM as my Father has appointed me 30 That you may eat and drink AT MY TABLE IN MY KINGDOM and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel 31 SIMON Satan has desired to have you 32 I have prayed for you that YOUR FAITH FAIL NOT when you are converted, STRENGTHEN YOUR BRETHREN.] When Peter is converted his faith will never fail, he is to strengthen all the brethren as Universal Pastor. Can an invisiable church do that? Christ said Satan wanted to sift all the apostles (you plural) as wheat, but Christ prayed that only (you singular) Peter’s faith fail not, this was said in the presents of the other apostles. Christ promised Peter’s faith alone would not fail, implying all must be in union and agree with the faith of Peter. Those not in union with Peter’s faith even though they have apostolic secession can teach error. My Bishop or any number of Bishops can teach error if not in union and agreement, with the successor of Peter. JN 21:14-17 Jesus asked Peter three times, “do you love me more than these” THESE, would be the other apostles. After being asked three times and replying three times, “yes”. Christ said to Peter, the first time, “feed MY lambs”, the second time, “feed MY sheep”, the third time, “feed MY sheep”. Peter is to feed ALL the sheep in Christ’s flock, not some, but ALL the sheep Christ has purchased with his blood. Can an invisiable church feed all Christ’s flock?
[ACTS 2:41 they that RECEIVED HIS WORD WERE BAPTIZED 42 THEY CONTINUED STEDFASTLY in the APOSTLES DOCTRINE FELLOWSHIP in BREAKING BREAD and in PRAYERS. 1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST. 10 I appeal to you BRETHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and the same judgment.] Can an invisiable church be a fellowship have the same doctrine, be united? One fellowship no matter where it is located in the world. [Lk 24:48 you are witnesses of these things 49 I SEND the promise of my Father upon you WAIT in Jerusalem TILL YOU ARE ENDUED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH. Can an invisiable church wait in Jerusalem? Jn 16:13 When THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH comes HE WILL GUIDE YOU into ALL the TRUTH Jn 14:26 the Holy Spirit HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL things and BRING ALL things TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE WHATEVER I HAVE SAID TO YOU.] Christ is speaking to the Apostolic Fellowship, who will be endued with power from on high, by whom the Church will be guided into all truth and teach all things whatsoever Christ said, through successors, till the end of the world. CONTINUED:
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jlhargus
Guest
[2 TIM 1:6 …stir up the GIFT OF GOD IN YOU BY THE PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS 7 GOD HAS GIVEN US the SPIRIT OF POWER. Titus 1:5 For this I left you in Crete that you should set in order …and ORDAIN ELDERS in EVERY CITY AS I APPOINTED YOU. ACTS 14:23 when they had ORDAINED elders IN EVERY CHURCH and prayed with fasting they commended them to the Lord on whom they believed. ACTS 20:28 Take heed of yourself, and the flock over which the HOLY SPIRIT has MADE you OVERSEERS TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD purchased with his own blood, 1 TIM 5:17 Let the elders that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE. 1 Tin 4:13 Till I come attend to READING to EXHORTATION to DOCTRINE 14 Do not neglect THE GIFT in you GIVEN you by prophecy WITH THE LAYING ON OF the HANDS of the presbytery 16 TAKE HEED to yourself TO THE DOCTRINE continue in them for in doing this you shalt both SAVE yourself and THOSE WHO HEAR YOU.] I cannot find a VALID minister in the New Covenant who was not ordained and SENT directly by Christ including Paul, or SENT by laying on of hands in the apostolic line, either by an apostle or one they ordained. [Except false teachers, who may even have been ordained by laying on of hands, but not SENT by the FELLOWSHIP. They go out on their own authority, I have no doubt they used and thought scripture supported their theology. Acts15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that CERTAIN which WENT OUT FROM US have troubled you with words SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS saying Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT Jer23:21 I DID NOT SEND these prophets, yet they have run with their message; I did not speak to them, yet they have prophesied [Those not sent are false teachers.] 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR
The Bishops of the world in union with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) make up the Magisterium (that teaching authority sent by Christ Mt28:16-20 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS I AM WITH YOU TILL THE END). Their duty is to teach, sanctify and govern. Teach the Word of God, faith and morals, what we must believe and moral standards. Sanctify by preaching the Word of God and administering the sacraments, govern the Church for good order, Jn 17:21 THAT THEY MAY BE ONE as you Father are in me and I in you that they also may be one in us THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE you SENT ME
The Catholic Church continues steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in breaking of bread and in prayers, ACTS 2:42. The one sent fellowship Christ sent to teach all he commanded, Mt 28:20, as he promised to sent the Holy Spirit to lead them in all truth (not part but all) Jn 16:13. He that hears you hears me, LK 10:16. If he neglect to hear the church treat him as a heathen, MT 18:17. I do not rely on my understanding nor on that of any man, no matter how learned, who in the last analysis gives only his own opinion, although he could be right at times. I prefer the assurance of those Christ SENT to lead in all truth, not hit and miss truth. to follow those, whom Christ has set over me, who have the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands in an unbroken line, to recall all Christ has taught, those to whom Christ promised the gates of hell shall never prevail against, Mt 16:18, the house of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth, 1 TM 3:14. [Eph3:7 Whereof I was made A MINISTER, ACCORDING TO THE GIFT of the grace of God given unto me BY the effectual working OF HIS POWER. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE what is the fellowship of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent THAT NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God,] CONTINUED:
The Bishops of the world in union with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) make up the Magisterium (that teaching authority sent by Christ Mt28:16-20 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS I AM WITH YOU TILL THE END). Their duty is to teach, sanctify and govern. Teach the Word of God, faith and morals, what we must believe and moral standards. Sanctify by preaching the Word of God and administering the sacraments, govern the Church for good order, Jn 17:21 THAT THEY MAY BE ONE as you Father are in me and I in you that they also may be one in us THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE you SENT ME
The Catholic Church continues steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in breaking of bread and in prayers, ACTS 2:42. The one sent fellowship Christ sent to teach all he commanded, Mt 28:20, as he promised to sent the Holy Spirit to lead them in all truth (not part but all) Jn 16:13. He that hears you hears me, LK 10:16. If he neglect to hear the church treat him as a heathen, MT 18:17. I do not rely on my understanding nor on that of any man, no matter how learned, who in the last analysis gives only his own opinion, although he could be right at times. I prefer the assurance of those Christ SENT to lead in all truth, not hit and miss truth. to follow those, whom Christ has set over me, who have the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands in an unbroken line, to recall all Christ has taught, those to whom Christ promised the gates of hell shall never prevail against, Mt 16:18, the house of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth, 1 TM 3:14. [Eph3:7 Whereof I was made A MINISTER, ACCORDING TO THE GIFT of the grace of God given unto me BY the effectual working OF HIS POWER. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE what is the fellowship of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent THAT NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God,] CONTINUED:
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jlhargus
Guest
Two of the greatest brothers, Peter and Paul, went from Palestine to Rome, where both were martyred. The successor of Peter is the bishop of Rome, and holds the keys of the Davidic kingdom a type or foreshadowing of the regenerated and restored spiritual kingdom of Israel in the new covenant (Mt 19:28). Christ the Son of David is king in David’s line, who will build a house for God, (2Sam 7:12-14). Peter is the first minister (prime minister) [Isa22:19 I will drive you from your station 20 I will call my servant Eliakim 21 I will commit your government to his hand he shall be a father to the people of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay on his shoulder so he shall open and none shall shut he shall shut and none shall open] Eliakim will be the new Prime Minster and called father of Jerusalem, in the Davidic Kingdom, he will succeed Shebna. So in the restored Kingdom of David, Peter will be Prime Minister and called father=pope in the new Jerusalem=Church. The keys indicate the holder has authority over the other royal ministers (or apostles) as they do not receive keys, also indicates the head office has successors. When the office is vacant it is filled by the King in David’s line, who is Christ, with another by giving of the keys. Jesus alluded to this passage when giving the keys to Peter, Mt 16. Incidentally if Christ is King in David’s line, his mother, which all generations will call blessed, is Gebirah (Queen Mother) 1Kings 2:19. From Solomon the son of David, who built a house for God, there was an office of queen mother in the Dividic Kingdom, the type and foreshadowing of the new Kingdom. The king Christ, the Son of David, is building a habitation for God of living stones.
The Jerusalem Council sent a letter to Antioch, with it decision settling a doctrinal dispute, which said, [Acts15:28 It seemed good to the HOLY SPIRIT and to US not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:] using their authority to bind and loose, Mt16:18. That magisterial teaching authority speaks with the authority of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, and all Christian knew it. That’s why the decision was accepted with JOY in Antioch, Acts15.
Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN. [Even though sent by Christ, Paul who had the gift of revelation, realized he could possibly be preaching another gospel than the Apostolic Fellowship. Paul was inspired by revelation to check his teaching with the teaching of the Apostles’ Fellowship. Those SENT by Christ, to teach ALL NATIONS and ALL Christ commanded till the end of the age. The Apostolic Fellowship Christ promised the Holy Spirit would guide in ALL TRUTH. If individual Christians had the ability to be led into all truth, because they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we would all be one without the lest disagreement. We can see that is not the case.
What did people do the first time the gospel was preached by Peter? Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN the APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS. [Those that received his word were baptized. They were brought into the Church by baptism and CONTINUED steadfastly in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship.] 1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR
[Mk 9:38 And JOHN answered him SAYING MASTER we saw one casting out devils in thy name and HE FOLLOWETH NOT US and WE FORBAD HIM because HE FOLLOWETH NOT US 39 But JESUS SAID FORBID HIM NOT for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name that can lightly speak evil of me 40 For he that is not against US is on OUR PART.] The Holy Spirit works in those separated denominations outside the Apostles Fellowship. Uniting them to that one fellowship in a spiritual way. Therefore we do not listen to men, the spirit of error, to be taken in by false teachers and every wind of doctine men can devise through sola scriptura, the tridition of men made a doctrine of God around 1521 AD.
The Jerusalem Council sent a letter to Antioch, with it decision settling a doctrinal dispute, which said, [Acts15:28 It seemed good to the HOLY SPIRIT and to US not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:] using their authority to bind and loose, Mt16:18. That magisterial teaching authority speaks with the authority of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, and all Christian knew it. That’s why the decision was accepted with JOY in Antioch, Acts15.
Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN. [Even though sent by Christ, Paul who had the gift of revelation, realized he could possibly be preaching another gospel than the Apostolic Fellowship. Paul was inspired by revelation to check his teaching with the teaching of the Apostles’ Fellowship. Those SENT by Christ, to teach ALL NATIONS and ALL Christ commanded till the end of the age. The Apostolic Fellowship Christ promised the Holy Spirit would guide in ALL TRUTH. If individual Christians had the ability to be led into all truth, because they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we would all be one without the lest disagreement. We can see that is not the case.
What did people do the first time the gospel was preached by Peter? Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN the APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS. [Those that received his word were baptized. They were brought into the Church by baptism and CONTINUED steadfastly in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship.] 1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR
[Mk 9:38 And JOHN answered him SAYING MASTER we saw one casting out devils in thy name and HE FOLLOWETH NOT US and WE FORBAD HIM because HE FOLLOWETH NOT US 39 But JESUS SAID FORBID HIM NOT for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name that can lightly speak evil of me 40 For he that is not against US is on OUR PART.] The Holy Spirit works in those separated denominations outside the Apostles Fellowship. Uniting them to that one fellowship in a spiritual way. Therefore we do not listen to men, the spirit of error, to be taken in by false teachers and every wind of doctine men can devise through sola scriptura, the tridition of men made a doctrine of God around 1521 AD.
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