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lutheran_farmer
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Are you saying that you know more than your deacon?
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Brandall
Guest
Oh how I love rituals and I’m not kidding. I’m just barely a Catholic, time wise but since I started attending regularly, I’ve enjoyed learning the different things you do at mass. At first, it was difficult to figure out the different things you’re supposed to do but now that I know, I don’t pay attention to what others are doing. If they’re doing something different, or the wrong things, I don’t notice so I can’t imagine that others were noticing my mistakes. I truly love it all.
There is a joke I heard and I wish I remembered it better to be able to tell it well but I’ll do the best I can.
There was a young couple that had been attending a Catholic Church for a few weeks and were just lost as when to kneel, sit, genuflect, stand, etc. One Sunday the husband was having a particularly difficult time and at one point was kind of half kneeling and half sitting in the pew. His wife asked, “Is your zipper down?” he replied, “Is it supposed to be?”
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whatsmyname
Guest
Mostly he seems confused by my questions and is unable to answer them. I ask the questions because I don’t know the answers, he can’t answer, then I research elsewhere.
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Brandall
Guest
That’s a shame. We are in a fairly affluent area and the staff is knowledgeable. There is a Director of adult education that oversees RCIA and try as I might, he either had an answer or found one for all of my questions. Our church is very blessed in that area.
It isn’t unusual to find that many cradle Catholics aren’t aware of what they have (per your earlier comment). Keep in mind though that most the users of these forums cannot be included in that number as they are the ones that are always seeking to learn and live the Catholic life. If there is a good solution to that, I don’t know what it is. When they are young, they have short attention spans and want to be doing other things. When they are teens, they are all about rebelling. A lot of times, you will see those that always took it seriously come out with a very solid Catholic foundation. The rest, just so-so. If I had been a cradle Catholic, I might well have turned out as one of those that didn’t understand what I was supposed to profess. Our adult education director claims that those that do inquiry know more about the faith than 50% of cradle Catholics and those that complete RCIA know more than 95% of cradle Catholics. Professionally, I am required to have continuing education on a yearly basis. It’s too bad the church can’t require such.
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MaryT777
Guest
Love the joke…
Mary.
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lutheran_farmer
Guest
I just went through Confirmation this past Easter, so the experience is still very fresh. Have you met with the priest? I would write my questions down and take them to the priest. Also, are you reading about the early church fathers? That helps a lot. Your priest should be able to recommend some additional reading, if you need it. Also, you could try some books, or CDs, by Scott Hahn. Your parish may some of his CDs. You can also ask your questions here. Best wishes on your journey. God bless!
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Peter_J
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Hi Whats. I can’t really speak to your particular situation, of course, not having ever met the deacon or been present … but generally speaking, I find that someone who doesn’t have answer can be a refreshing change. (Can you tell that I spend a lot of time on blogs and discussion fora on the web?)
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Indifferently
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I view Roman Catholicism as “another gospel”. And therefore Roman Catholics as a mission field. Roman Catholics are content to call me (by virtue of my trinitarian baptism) a “brother in Christ”, I would not extend this to them, because I believe the Council of Trent formally anathematizes the Christian gospel and, consequently, Roman Catholics are not ordinarily considered Christians.
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Peter_J
Guest
I’m probably not telling you anything you don’t know, but not many in the CoE agree with you.
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Picky_Picky
Guest
You are right, of course. One of the great strengths and great trials of the Church of England is that it tries to encompass Christians of all flavours. Indifferently may have one of the more piquant flavours and yet be thoroughly CofE.
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Peter_J
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Picky_Picky
Guest
You are right. For a change.:tsktsk: Flattery will get you nowhere.
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Indifferently
Guest
If I believe the confessional statements of the C of E, then Article XI of the XXIX Articles, still affixed to our Book of Common Prayer, teaches justification by faith. The C of E holds to that doctrine. The Council of Trent’s canons on justification say that this very doctrine is a damnable heresy, and those who confessed it at the Reformation were placed under a formal anathema (that is, a curse of eternal damnation).
Mine is a minority opinion in today’s C of E because today’s C of E doesn’t hold to what the Church of England’s official formularies have taught since the Reformation.
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Picky_Picky
Guest
I imagine Article XIII, on works before justification, is more likely to find modern CofE-ers shaking their heads than Article XI, but you may be right.
As to the curse of eternal damnation, I believe that falls on me, too, but it doesn’t cause me to think Catholics non-Christian.
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Indifferently
Guest
Not all are non-Christian. And they belong to the outward visible covenant community by virtue of baptism. But in the OT many who were circumcized did not really belong to the Lord and perished, because they did not believe his word. The same is true of the NT church.
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Per_Crucem
Guest
Where do the apostolic Scriptures define the gospel solely and strictly as justification by faith?
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Indifferently
Guest
It is integral to the good news that Jesus died to save helpless sinners. The Trent canons on justification are explicitly semi-Pelagian, make justification out to be a process of co-operation between God and man that eventually results in glory. This co-operative effort is in Tridentine terms both God’s gift of grace and man’s reward for obedient faith and good works, including use of the sacraments.
That justification is a monergistic act of God apart from man, declaring sins forgiven and reconciliation with himself on account of Christ’s perfectly obedient life and sacrificial death, is the Reformed view which the Church of England’s Prayer Book and Articles hold.
Thus, the Roman Catholic view, that Jesus has done his bit and now it’s our turn to “apply” his merit to ourselves by faith and good works co-operating with grace, to subjectively transform ourselves into righteous beings acceptable in God’s sight, and doing penances and purgatory to make up the difference if we fall short, is an entirely different gospel.
So I hold the basic Reformed view that one or the other must be under God’s anathema.
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Per_Crucem
Guest
Which Rome doesn’t deny.
Which, as Trent explicitly affirms, would be futile wihtout Jesus dying to save sinners. Do you consider Arminian Protestants to be non-Christian as well?
Can you name a Catholic, saint or otherwise, who explicitly gloried in their good works and use of the sacraments, and boasted in and of themselves?
Where do the Scriptures affirm that justification as a monergistic act is the strict definition of the gospel preached by the apostles?
This is, at best, a caricature.
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SteveVH
Guest
Wow. Just wow.
I’m going to take some time here and blow off a little steam before I even attempt to respond to this ridiculous statement. You might want to go back to the origins of your faith community before you make such comments.
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FathersKnowBest
Guest
:doh2:
So many errors, so many ways to derail this thread.
To begin with:
- Justification by faith, just not faith alone, is a tenet of Catholicism
- Your definition of anathema is incorrect
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