Non-Catholics how do you view Catholicism?

[FathersKnowBest]

It is integral to the good news that Jesus died to save helpless sinners.

You didn’t answer the question.

The Trent canons on justification are explicitly semi-Pelagian, make justification out to be a process of co-operation between God and man that eventually results in glory.

Thus, the Roman Catholic view, that Jesus has done his bit and now it’s our turn to “apply” his merit to ourselves by faith and good works co-operating with grace, to subjectively transform ourselves into righteous beings acceptable in God’s sight, and doing penances and purgatory to make up the difference if we fall short, is an entirely different gospel.

It seems that St. Paul, then, is semi-Pelagian according to your standard:
Ro 2:6 For he will render to every man according to his works:
7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

 

[Indifferently]

Wow. Just wow.

I’m going to take some time here and blow off a little steam before I even attempt to respond to this ridiculous statement. You might want to go back to the origins of your faith community before you make such comments.

What I’m saying here is standard confessional Calvinism. Why would you be so offended by that view? If the Roman Catholic Council of Trent places an anathema on the good news as the Bible presents it, I have a fair assumption that the gospel (as the bible presents it) is not preached from Roman Catholic pulpits. Those who hear not the message will not be able to call out to the Lord (Rom. 10:13-14).

There are certainly true Christians within the Roman Catholic fold, who have heard perhaps of the preaching of the Scriptures, or from some converted priest, or some other means. But the institution itself denies the saving message of the cross and replaces it with a system that cannot save.

 

[Peter_J]

What I’m saying here is standard confessional Calvinism. Why would you be so offended by that view?

I’ve had a number of Calvinists friends whom I regard as very good people, and very good friends. But in terms of Calvinism, it seems to me to have strayed far, not just from Rome but from traditional Christianity as understood by Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, and even Methodists. (Though I’m not sure I would say I’m offended by it – not that that question was directed toward me anyhow. )

P.S. As I understand it, during the Reformation, Lutherans and Calvinists sometimes doubted that they were even worshiping the same Christ. (Notwithstanding their shared Non-Catholicness. )

 

[Indifferently]

It seems that St. Paul, then, is semi-Pelagian according to your standard:
Ro 2:6 For he will render to every man according to his works:
7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Do you study Romans? Or did you just cherry-pick that verse?

The Apostle Paul is using these verses you quote to illustrate the point that man is universally condemned apart from Christ, because all have sinned. Verses 12 and 13 make it clear that not only does God require no sin for us to pass his judgement-test, but he also requires from us perfect righteousness. This is something that no man can claim before God - thus we all are under his wrath. The second half of chapter 2 goes on to more fully explain the full culpability of the Jews under the law - they had God’s commands and broke them, so they are guilty. The condemnation is even more fully illustrated in the first eight verses of chapter 3.

Paul then goes on (Rom. 3:9-12):
"What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”"

The universal condemnation of men who try to keep the law. Again verse 20:
“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.”

The law condemns, because the law like God is holy, and we cannot keep it well enough to please God because of our sinful state.

So our righteousness instead is imputed to us through faith in Jesus Christ:
“But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

So we receive Christ’s righteousness, and he has propitiated God’s wrath against us, and we receive it through faith apart from works. Yes, good works result from a true and lively faith, but our justification (our being declared righteous by God) is completely apart from our own works.

This is what the Bible teaches, and this is why Calvinists believe that Rome is an apostate church.

 

[SteveVH]

What I’m saying here is standard confessional Calvinism. Why would you be so offended by that view?

Because it is heretical, just as the Church has proclaimed.

If the Roman Catholic Council of Trent places an anathema on the good news as the Bible presents it

According to who? Calvinists? Why does their view of biblical truth trump that of the Catholic Church who gave us the Scriptures to begin with?

I have a fair assumption that the gospel (as the bible presents it) is not preached from Roman Catholic pulpits. Those who hear not the message will not be able to call out to the Lord (Rom. 10:13-14).

Scripture cannot be viewed apart from the faith that gave us the Scriptures. It must be viewed through the lens of Sacred Tradition, not the opinions of various individuals such as Calvin or Luther.

There are certainly true Christians within the Roman Catholic fold, who have heard perhaps of the preaching of the Scriptures, or from some converted priest, or some other means. But the institution itself denies the saving message of the cross and replaces it with a system that cannot save.

Where in the world are you getting your information? The suffering, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is at the center of our faith.

“Save us Savior of the world. For by your death and resurrection you have set us free.” (Memorial Acclamation C)

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Where in the world are you getting your information? The suffering, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is at the center of our faith.

“Save us Savior of the world. For by your death and resurrection you have set us free.” (Memorial Acclamation C)

Lots of win here!!!

 

[Per_Crucem]

What I’m saying here is standard confessional Calvinism. Why would you be so offended by that view? If the Roman Catholic Council of Trent places an anathema on the good news as the Bible presents it, I have a fair assumption that the gospel (as the bible presents it) is not preached from Roman Catholic pulpits. Those who hear not the message will not be able to call out to the Lord (Rom. 10:13-14).

Great. So you can give the gospel as defined and preached by Ligonier Ministries. However, my specific question is, is where do the Scriptures state that the understanding of justification specific to Calvinism is THE gospel?

 

[Indifferently]

Great. So you can give the gospel as defined and preached by Ligonier Ministries. However, my specific question is, is where do the Scriptures state that the understanding of justification specific to Calvinism is THE gospel?

Justification by faith is not “the gospel”. The gospel is the good news that although men are totally helpless to save themselves, and although they are under the wrath of God for their sins, Jesus Christ has come into the world to save the elect and pay the full debt for all the punishments due to their sins, by the means of his active obedience to the law and his passive obedience in his penal substitutionary death in our place on the cross as a propitiation for our sins, and that he has risen to new life for our justification. This is sovereignly imputed to us while we are yet sinners, which is precisely why it is good news.

The “good news” of Roman Catholicism is not news at all but “good advice” - that Jesus has “opened the door” to God and now it’s up to us to make the journey there, if we accept God’s gracious offer of salvation. Without an understanding of the bondage of the will to sin, there is no gospel.

Try not to do “biblicism”. I could ask you which verse of the Bible specifically defines the doctrine of the consubstantial and coeternal Triune God, but we would both agree that the Trinity is not just taught in Scripture but is binding on all Christians. The same is true of sola fide.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Justification by faith is not “the gospel”. The gospel is the good news that although men are totally helpless to save themselves, and although they are under the wrath of God for their sins, Jesus Christ has come into the world to save the elect and pay the full debt for all the punishments due to their sins, by the means of his active obedience to the law and his passive obedience in his penal substitutionary death in our place on the cross as a propitiation for our sins, and that he has risen to new life for our justification. This is sovereignly imputed to us while we are yet sinners, which is precisely why it is good news.

The “good news” of Roman Catholicism is not news at all but “good advice” - that Jesus has “opened the door” to God and now it’s up to us to make the journey there, if we accept God’s gracious offer of salvation. Without an understanding of the bondage of the will to sin, there is no gospel.

This is manifestly NOT what Roman Catholicism teaches about justification.

Try not to do “biblicism”. I could ask you which verse of the Bible specifically defines the doctrine of the consubstantial and coeternal Triune God, but we would both agree that the Trinity is not just taught in Scripture but is binding on all Christians. The same is true of sola fide.

It is binding on Christians, both by church teaching and by Scripture. But yes, I could provide Scripture regarding God as consubstantial and coeternal Trinity. I could not, however, provide Scripture that defines the gospel how you are defining it.

 

[SteveVH]

Justification by faith is not “the gospel”. The gospel is the good news that although men are totally helpless to save themselves, and although they are under the wrath of God for their sins, Jesus Christ has come into the world to save the elect and pay the full debt for all the punishments due to their sins, by the means of his active obedience to the law and his passive obedience in his penal substitutionary death in our place on the cross as a propitiation for our sins, and that he has risen to new life for our justification. This is sovereignly imputed to us while we are yet sinners, which is precisely why it is good news.

The “good news” of Roman Catholicism is not news at all but “good advice” - that Jesus has “opened the door” to God and now it’s up to us to make the journey there, if we accept God’s gracious offer of salvation. Without an understanding of the bondage of the will to sin, there is no gospel.

You are confusing “Redemption” with “Salvation”. Jesus has redeemed the entire world through his death and resurrection; he died “once for all”. It is our response to Jesus’ redemptive act; our response to grace, that determines our salvation:

“Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.” (Revelation 20:12)

We have all been redeemed. We are not, however, all saved.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Do you study Romans? Or did you just cherry-pick that verse?

No cherry-picking here! I’ve studied Romans quite extensively.

The Apostle Paul is using these verses you quote to illustrate the point that man is universally condemned apart from Christ, because all have sinned.

Corporately-speaking, as in Jews and Gentiles alike, yes.

Verses 12 and 13 make it clear that not only does God require no sin for us to pass his judgement-test, but he also requires from us perfect righteousness. This is something that no man can claim before God - thus we all are under his wrath. The second half of chapter 2 goes on to more fully explain the full culpability of the Jews under the law - they had God’s commands and broke them, so they are guilty. The condemnation is even more fully illustrated in the first eight verses of chapter 3.

Paul then goes on (Rom. 3:9-12):
"What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”"

Very true!

The universal condemnation of men who try to keep the law. Again verse 20:
“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.”

I’d suggest you study up on what St. Paul means by “works of [the] law” (Gr: ergon nomos). Generally, what he’s referring to is the Mosaic Law, the Torah.

The law condemns, because the law like God is holy, and we cannot keep it well enough to please God because of our sinful state.

Yep. And, the Mosaic Law has be abrogated.

So we receive Christ’s righteousness, and he has propitiated God’s wrath against us, and we receive it through faith apart from works. Yes, good works result from a true and lively faith, but our justification (our being declared righteous by God) is completely apart from our own works.

You’re confusing good works with works of the Mosaic Law.

This is what the Bible teaches, and this is why Calvinists believe that Rome is an apostate church.

Nope. This is what a misinterpretation of the Bible teaches, which is Calvinists believe that Rome is an apostate church – they have misinterpreted the Bible and have invented a new Gospel.

Which is why you can’t harmonize that part of St. Paul with the quote I provided above; they are in conflict for your belief system. I noticed that you did not provide an explanation of why St. Paul would say such a thing, you only claimed that it was cherry-picked and then proceeded to provide text which, in YOUR interpretation, contradicted what he said. In our belief system, there can be no contradiction.

 

[Indifferently]

No I gave the meaning of that text and then elaborated on it. That was part of Paul’s discourse that universal condemnation comes under the law. This cannot just refer to the law given to Israel at Sinai because he says that this law is the law written on the hearts of the Gentiles who did not receive it. So it is the moral law of God which, yes, was especially and explicitly given to Moses at Sinai, but proves to us that all men cannot come to God by acts of obedience but only through the righteousness of Christ imputed to their account through faith, as the second half of chapter 3 teaches.

 

[Indifferently]

There will of course on the Last Day be a judgement according to works. The Scripture is clear on that. But believers will be judged according to Christ’s works, since his righteousness has been imputed to them, and they will be admitted. Everyone else will be judged according to his own works and justly condemned to the everlasting fire.

 

[SteveVH]

There will of course on the Last Day be a judgement according to works. The Scripture is clear on that. But believers will be judged according to Christ’s works, since his righteousness has been imputed to them, and they will be admitted. Everyone else will be judged according to his own works and justly condemned to the everlasting fire.

Where does Scripture say that? Following your position Revelation should have said that those who do not believe in Christ will be judged according to their deeds but Christians will be judged according to their faith, regardless of their deeds. That is not how the text reads. You are adding to Scripture and it is you who have “another gospel”.

If what you say is true then there really isn’t any “judgment”. This is like saying to non-believers “we’re going to give you a fair trial and then hang you.” For “believers” no judgment is necessary. Nowhere does Scripture say this. We will all be judged according to our deeds in response to the saving grace offered to us through the death and resurrection of Christ. The degree of our faith is judged by the degree of our response to grace through our works. I cannot claim to have faith in Christ if it is not reflected in my life. I cannot say “I believe” and then not give water to the thirsty, food to the hungry and clothing to the naked.

 

[Indifferently]

Where does Scripture say that? Following your position Revelation should have said that those who do not believe in Christ will be judged according to their deeds but Christians will be judged according to their faith, regardless of their deeds. That is not how the text reads. You are adding to Scripture and it is you who have “another gospel”.

Scripture does not contradict itself. Read Eph. 2:8-9. Not by works.

Do you really think you’ve done enough good works to withstand God’s judgement? The God who says that the wages of sin is death? Do you think you will fare well if you are truly going to be judged according to what you’ve done and what you’ve not done?

 

[SteveVH]

Scripture does not contradict itself. Read Eph. 2:8-9. Not by works.

Do you really think you’ve done enough good works to withstand God’s judgement?

No. And the Church has never taught this. I cannot do anything to gain heaven apart from Christ. Through his life, death and resurrection Jesus opened the gates of heaven and redeemed all of humanity. But when the judgment comes this is the way in which all of us will be judged:

*31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me."* (Matthew 25:31-41)

Are these not works and are we not judged according to these works?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Scripture does not contradict itself. Read Eph. 2:8-9. Not by works.

After all these years… and people still leave verse 10 of Eph. 2 out… I don’t get it…

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Faith without works is dead. We are **not **justified by faith alone.

Do you really think you’ve done enough good works to withstand God’s judgement?

Straw man.

The God who says that the wages of sin is death?

[If] we confess our sins, he is faithful.

Do you think you will fare well if you are truly going to be judged according to what you’ve done and what you’ve not done?

Do we **love **Him?

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

1 Cor. 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

If we have all the faith as to move mountains but have no Love = We are nothing.

Faith without Works = Dead

Faith without Love = Nothing

Faith Alone = Fail

 

[SteveVH]

After all these years… and people still leave verse 10 of Eph. 2 out… I don’t get it…

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Faith without works is dead. We are **not **justified by faith alone.

Straw man.

[If] we confess our sins, he is faithful.

Do we **love **Him?

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

1 Cor. 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

If we have all the faith as to move mountains but have no Love = We are nothing.

Faith without Works = Dead

Faith without Love = Nothing

Faith Alone = Fail

 

[Per_Crucem]

Thus, the Roman Catholic view, that Jesus has done his bit and now it’s our turn to “apply” his merit to ourselves by faith and good works co-operating with grace, to subjectively transform ourselves into righteous beings acceptable in God’s sight, and doing penances and purgatory to make up the difference if we fall short, is an entirely different gospel.

As opposed to the above, what Rome actually teaches about justification:

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism.

1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself.

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. “Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.”

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life.

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent.

1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

No I gave the meaning of that text and then elaborated on it.

Adulterated it. Made it “a different gospel”.

That was part of Paul’s discourse that universal condemnation comes under the law. This cannot just refer to the law given to Israel at Sinai because he says that this law is the law written on the hearts of the Gentiles who did not receive it.

Yes, “when they do by nature what the law requires” they show that the law is written on their hearts. That is different from the works of the law.

You still have yet to even attempt to make sense of the text that I quoted, nor of what SteveVH quoted, nor the many, many other places where scripture says this type of thing which contradicts your view.