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dronald
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I can’t and won’t argue with this. Correct on every point.
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manualman
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Romans 2:6-8 “For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.”
There is no contradiction with St Paul. I think there’s much misunderstanding about Faith and works. Faith is a gift of grace indicative by Baptism. Its unmerited, but there is a responsibility to maintain your Faith? How does one do this?
There is no contradiction with St Paul. I think there’s much misunderstanding about Faith and works. Faith is a gift of grace indicative by Baptism. Its unmerited, but there is a responsibility to maintain your Faith? How does one do this?
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manualman
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Calvinists are often quite obsessed with the idea that any two way interaction between God and man will necessarily result in man thinking that he earned salvation. It’s quite absurd, but constitutes a near-mania among them. They stomp feet and insist that man has nothing to do with his eternal destiny (rarely phrased that way, of course, but what they say directly amounts to that).
In the end, the Calvinist has no free will. His God is too insecure for that. The real God, of course, loves and gives. While He truly is absolutely sovereign, He also is so loving that He merely OFFERS us His love rather than using His power to force acceptance of it. That love and the transforming power it gives us is, of course, what saves us and sanctifies us so profoundly that we understand heaven to be a true communion with God, not merely a luxurious place that we skated into because God covered over our sin with a nifty cosmic lawyer trick. Our righteousness by then won’t be a fictitious legal status but a genuine description of our character. Oh happy day!
In the end, the Calvinist has no free will. His God is too insecure for that. The real God, of course, loves and gives. While He truly is absolutely sovereign, He also is so loving that He merely OFFERS us His love rather than using His power to force acceptance of it. That love and the transforming power it gives us is, of course, what saves us and sanctifies us so profoundly that we understand heaven to be a true communion with God, not merely a luxurious place that we skated into because God covered over our sin with a nifty cosmic lawyer trick. Our righteousness by then won’t be a fictitious legal status but a genuine description of our character. Oh happy day!
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Per_Crucem
Guest
I think you have Jesus confused with Darth Vader.
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Indifferently
Guest
To respond to the above:
Eph. 2:10 refers to the new creations in Christ. If you are a new creation in Christ you have been prepared by God (by the indwelling of his Spirit) to perform good works, since all you did before your justification had the like nature of sin and was hateful in the sight of God. The elect have been predestined to election and justification and, having been justified by grace through faith, they are then created by God unto good works - these works being the outworking and fruits of faith which God has given as a gift, themselves having nothing to do with justification. Yes, faith without works is dead. But true justifying faith never comes without works. But it is only the faith which justifies - the works come out of the heart of a man who has already found permanent peace with God, and do not increase in any way his justice before the Righteous One.
Eph. 2:10 refers to the new creations in Christ. If you are a new creation in Christ you have been prepared by God (by the indwelling of his Spirit) to perform good works, since all you did before your justification had the like nature of sin and was hateful in the sight of God. The elect have been predestined to election and justification and, having been justified by grace through faith, they are then created by God unto good works - these works being the outworking and fruits of faith which God has given as a gift, themselves having nothing to do with justification. Yes, faith without works is dead. But true justifying faith never comes without works. But it is only the faith which justifies - the works come out of the heart of a man who has already found permanent peace with God, and do not increase in any way his justice before the Righteous One.
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lutheran_farmer
Guest
The point was that if there is no formal religion and religion is ridiculed by parents, the parents are, in effect, raising their children agnostic or atheist. The claim that parents make that they want their children to decide when they are old enough is a cop out. The parents are choosing a ‘religion’ (or lack thereof, if you prefer.
) for their children.
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pablope
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No…actually what you gave was you or Calvin’s intepretation and explanation…but how do you know that you or Calvin’s interpretation or explanation is true? What is your proof that what you are saying/interpreting, explaining, is true?
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Isaiah45_9
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Larryk113
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Me too! I come from a Baptist background. Anytime I have had a question there always seems to be a legitimate answer.
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PattyPryor
Guest
Wow this thread sort if went off topic. I think 3 to 4 pages could have been their own separate topic. Half of which was talked about made no real sense. Oh well…
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Indifferently
Guest
I should have just said my piece and then left it.
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manualman
Guest
Daft old softies even refrain from beheading papists these days too! God save the queen, eh?
In fairness, you WERE asked what you thought of Catholicism. Who can blame you for answering honestly?
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Indifferently
Guest
The formularies don’t say we should behead papists, and I don’t think that either. The Bible teachs that Jesus’s kingdom is “not of this world” and is spread not by temporal and physical means but by the preaching of the Word.
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Tommy999
Guest
I deeply admire and respect the Catholic Church like a wise uncle or aunt that I like being with and listening to in order to gain nuggets of wisdom that I didn’t know before. After all, Catholics have been around a lot longer than those of us whose denominations originated from the Reformation.
I still struggle with some Catholic beliefs, but there are many more positive traits than negative for me. That’s why I like reading and sometimes commenting on this forum.
Thank you to all those Catholics who share the Catholic faith with charity and kindness to non-Catholics.
I consider Catholics to be my brothers and sisters in Christ.
I still struggle with some Catholic beliefs, but there are many more positive traits than negative for me. That’s why I like reading and sometimes commenting on this forum.
Thank you to all those Catholics who share the Catholic faith with charity and kindness to non-Catholics.
I consider Catholics to be my brothers and sisters in Christ.
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SteveVH
Guest
Tommy, thanks for your kind words about our faith. As long as one is seeking truth rather than a faith that conforms to their own wishes and desires they are on the right road. I also struggled with some Catholic teachings (i.e. capital punishment; divorce and re-marriage, contraception…) but each and every time that I looked into the reason for these beliefs I was convinced the Church was right and had to conform my views to the truth. The deeper I look into the Catholic Church the more beauty, wisdom and sanctity I find.
I am happy to call you a brother in Christ.
God bless.
Steve
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Picky_Picky
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I think you are right. There is no reason to suppose atheist parents ridicule religion to their children: I certainly didn’t. If asked I explained in the best way I could, depending on the age of the child, that some people believed this and some people believed that. I always spoke respectfully of church and religion. Of course children are bound to be affected by their parents’ beliefs, but that’s inescapable. An honest attempt to leave the decision to the children and to answer children’s questions in as honest and unbiased a fashion as possible is the best that can be hoped for.
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lutheran_farmer
Guest
Actually, it was horrible to grow up with trials and tribulations without any real concept of God. My brothers struggled as well. To hide abuse, we were effectively isolated from having close friends and social groups (a church would have been a social group where we could escape our situation for awhile or even seek help). I am Catholic now, but it wasn’t easy to get here. My parents were raised with religion, but cheated us out of any relationship with God. Since they were divorced, one parent was not in a position to influence us.
If a parent rejects religion, that’s one thing, but when the primary parent ridicules religion and objects to even expose their children to religion, they ARE making a conscience choice. That is a cop out.
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lutheran_farmer
Guest
To simplify, think of ice cream. It’s one thing to take your children to an ice cream shop and let them pick a flavor. It’s entirely different to tell them ice cream is bad and they should never go into an ice cream shop.
(BTW, I like chocolate with caramel and chocolate chunks).
(BTW, I like chocolate with caramel and chocolate chunks).
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lutheran_farmer
Guest
You do have ro remove the abuse factor, but I did want to speak about my own experience, since we sort of drifted there during our discussion.
I think exposure to religion is important, if someone is truly raising their children with a choice. If the parent is atheist, but doesn’t want to deprive their child of a possible relationship with God, then finding a relative to take the child to church with them would be a reasonable option. While children raised to be atheists, may be socially well adjusted, they may also feel cheated out of a much richer and more meaningful life.
I think selfishness, on the part of the parents, is a factor sometimes. They don’t want to make the extra effort to take their child to church or don’t want to face their own shortcomings, if they do believe deep down but don’t have the courage to go back to church. Again, I would say a trusted relative or friend could be the one to expose the chiildren, if the parents aren’t willing or able. If a child is baptized, the Catholic Church expects the godparents to help in the case where the parents are not supportive.
I think it’s good to at least get them into the ice cream shop.
I think exposure to religion is important, if someone is truly raising their children with a choice. If the parent is atheist, but doesn’t want to deprive their child of a possible relationship with God, then finding a relative to take the child to church with them would be a reasonable option. While children raised to be atheists, may be socially well adjusted, they may also feel cheated out of a much richer and more meaningful life.
I think selfishness, on the part of the parents, is a factor sometimes. They don’t want to make the extra effort to take their child to church or don’t want to face their own shortcomings, if they do believe deep down but don’t have the courage to go back to church. Again, I would say a trusted relative or friend could be the one to expose the chiildren, if the parents aren’t willing or able. If a child is baptized, the Catholic Church expects the godparents to help in the case where the parents are not supportive.
I think it’s good to at least get them into the ice cream shop.
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