Non-Catholics, how is Mary not the Mother of God?

[Rightlydivide]

I was referring to the way the Assyrians say
Virgin Mary as “the Mother of Christ our God and Saviour”.
The Vatican is okay with this. So I think we are all good.

 

[3Sanctus]

Here’s the conclusion of the document on the Vatican website:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Conclusion

The present Guidelines have been transmitted to both H.H. Mar Dinkha IV, Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East and H.B. Mar Raphaël I Bidawid, Patriarch of the Chaldean Church. The promulgation of this provision between the Assyrian Church of the East and the Chaldean Church belongs to the competence of both particular Churches and their respective authorities (cf. CCEO, cann. 670, §1; 671, §4.5). Taking into consideration concrete circumstances and conditions, they will have to establish particular procedures and provide appropriate pastoral means to implement it.

This provision for admission to the Eucharist in situations of pastoral necessity is not to be equated with full Eucharistic communion between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East. Although closely related to one another in matters of faith and sacramental life, both particular Churches are not yet in full communion. They are still travelling, with hope and courage, towards that blessed day when full and visible communion will be attained and when it will be possible to celebrate together in peace the Holy Eucharist of the Lord. As Pope John Paul II wrote in his Encyclical Letter Ut Unum Sint: “From this basic but partial unity it is now necessary to advance towards the visible unity which is required and sufficient and which is manifested in a real and concrete way, so that the Churches may truly become a sign of that full communion in the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church which will be expressed in the common celebration of the Eucharist” (UUS, n. 78).

 

[JimG]

Charity is ALL things. We are commanded to love one another as Christ as loved us - even unto death for our sakes.

However, we must be careful not to suggest heresy or schism is acceptable - extra ecclesiam nulla salus!

I’m looking at the links supplied by RightlyDivide, from the Vatican website. This is from his first link:
“Since this unanimity for which we aim has not yet been attained, we cannot unfortunately celebrate together the Eucharist which is the sign of the ecclesial communion already fully restored.”
That indicates that intercommunion is not possilbe.

However, his second link provides guidelines for Chaldean Catholics who do not have access to their own churches and wish to receive the Eucharist at the Assyrian Church. There seem to have been a number of concerns addressed before providing for this, not only with theology but the the particular Eucharistic prayer which did not include an institution narrative. “3. When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.”

 

[3Sanctus]

I was referring to the way the Assyrians say
Virgin Mary as “the Mother of Christ our God and Saviour”.
The Vatican is okay with this. So I think we are all good.

Yes, she is the Mother of Christ our **God **and Saviour. No problems with that statement that I’m aware of, but I don’t see how that statement is acceptable but Theotokos is not.

 

[JimG]

I was referring to the way the Assyrians say
Virgin Mary as “the Mother of Christ our God and Saviour”.
The Vatican is okay with this. So I think we are all good.

Yes, there is nothing theologically incorrect about the statement. Referring to Mary as “Mother of Christ our God and Savior,” actually includes the idea of Mary as Mother of God, with the phrase giving a different emphasis.

 

[JimG]

Yes, she is the Mother of Christ our **God **and Saviour. No problems with that statement that I’m aware of, but I don’t see how that statement is acceptable but Theotokos is not.

Judging from the ongoing dialogue between the Assyrian Church and the Vatican, they are working on that!

 

[3Sanctus]

I’m looking at the links supplied by RightlyDivide, from the Vatican website. This is from his first link:
“Since this unanimity for which we aim has not yet been attained, we cannot unfortunately celebrate together the Eucharist which is the sign of the ecclesial communion already fully restored.”
That indicates that intercommunion is not possilbe.

However, his second link provides guidelines for Chaldean Catholics who do not have access to their own churches and wish to receive the Eucharist at the Assyrian Church. There seem to have been a number of concerns addressed before providing for this, not only with theology but the the particular Eucharistic prayer which did not include an institution narrative. “3. When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.”

How does that relate to the fact heresy and schism are not acceptable? If it’s schismatic they’re not in communion even if a pope says they are (this is not an infallible declaration from what I can tell) and if they’re in communion then they’re not schismatics. If it’s heresy, then may we prayer for the conversion of their hearts to the truth.

 

[3Sanctus]

Judging from the ongoing dialogue between the Assyrian Church and the Vatican, they are working on that!

Deo Gratias!

 

[choy]

And Lord also refers to Christ and has other uses as well.

yes, thats my point
Lord = God = Jesus

whenever you see Lord with the capital L in the english Bible, that obviously refers to God. kings may be referred to lord with a small L

 

[Araninski]

@GreggAlvarez

Agree with everything you said.

Yes the Word made flesh.
Jesus is both the Son of Man and the Son of God.
God-bearer and not mother of God, she carried Jesus which is God, true, but not mother of the hole “mini-trinity”. Because again you cannot give birth something that already was.

Sorry but what you said doesn’t make sense, if Jesus is eternal, and the visible established later, then how can there be a body in that beginning?, in the beginning there wasn’t flesh. So those 3 are not necessarily always together. Before Jesus having His body, He already was, already had His Spirit.

Joseph was the chosen earthly father of Jesus so that makes Joseph the Father of God? The same for Mary, Jesus chose her to be His earthly mother. Now our Heavenly Father is our real Father, and our earthly Fathers are that earthly only.

God bless.

 

[3Sanctus]

@GreggAlvarez
Joseph was the chosen earthly father of Jesus so that makes Joseph the Father of God? The same for Mary, Jesus chose her to be His earthly mother. Now our Heavenly Father is our real Father, and our earthly Fathers are that earthly only.
God bless.

Ignoring the blatant heresy in the rest of your post…

All Joseph did was raise Jesus. Mary was a virgin. Jesus was “conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary,” hence, Mary actually gave birth to God - unless you believe Jesus is not God and/or you believe Jesus had two separate natures and is therefore not one person.

 

[rwillenborg]

IMO Mary’s body was used as a vessel of honour to give God the Son human DNA.

Was my body also used as a vessel for my own children? I always thought God regarded me much more highly than to simply use me as an incubator.

 

[rwillenborg]

Yeah, exactly, as well as the father of your sons is the father of your son’s human nature. Because our real father is God right?

(Isaiah 9:6) For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
(Isaiah 64:8) Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.
(Matthew 6:6) But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

There are far a lot more passages regarding this matter. Don’t be sad, you are the one who races your sons, you need to understand God is our real Father, your son is your brother/sister in Christ believe it or not, you only gave birth to his/her human nature.The same happen with Christ, with the difference The Son of God was not “born”, He already was because He is God. What was born was His human nature, you cannot give birth to Something that already was, only to something that wasn’t.

I gave birth to a nature, not a person? I’m afraid I’m even more confused. How do natures walk around and talk? That’s what people do. I thought I gave birth to a person who HAS a nature, certainly, but a whole person, nonetheless. And my husband, he is the father of these persons, not the father of their nature, right?
I wouldn’t say that God is our ‘real’ Father, while the father of my children is somehow not their real father. They’re both fathers, wouldn’t you agree with that?

 

[rwillenborg]

This means His flesh was against Him. His flesh was weakness to Him, but His faith won triumphant over the flesh, and of course the Devil.

But, how could anything be a weakness when one is God? He was the supreme ruler of everything. How can your own creation weaken you when you’re God? I had understood that flesh didn’t weaken Him. Quite the opposite. He strengthened flesh. No?
In other words, by God becoming Man he sanctified us. He made us able to share in the divine again, by humbling Himself to the flesh. I never thought that he considered flesh his weakness. He was in a fallen world and therefore had to resist temptation, certainly, but I thought teh temptation was from the devil, not from the flesh.

 

[Rightlydivide]

The Bible never refers to Mary as a vessel. So I would not either. Besides, it could lead to denying his humanity as well, not that you are but it could.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Arninski: God-bearer but not Mother? Is that even possible? Yes Jesus is eternal but you are (I imagine so anyway) getting eternal confused with infinity, which is temporal (that is another off topic for another thread). MAJOR difference. With God, everything is present. Calvary is ever-present to Him because of His eternal-ness (for lack of better words again). We by no means say that Mary was Mother of God, therefore older; We just mean that she was THE God-bearer (although there is much more mystery to it than all the books written on it, but for argument’s sake there it is). After His birth she did all the motherly things with Him. How is this not being a mother (after having Him in the womb, giving birth, doing motherly duties, etc…)? If it is not being a mother, what is the definition of “mother”? You might get a mob of mothers coming after you! She gave birth to our Savior who was eternally begotten of the Father. I think we are getting REALLY close to an agreement. By the way, “Mini-trinities” does sound much lamer than I originally thought but I do not have much intelligence. I like it Thanks for not making fun of me. Take care my friend.

 

[Araninski]

And so did Joseph do his job as a father, but he doesn’t have a title of father of God, he raised Jesus too. I acknowledge Mary is the mother of Jesus but not of God, the Son , here is were Catholics MUST be right for them to be able to explain that Mary is the Mother of the Church and therefore not a sister in Christ?? Because she is also part of the Church which is the Bride of Christ?? So she is a part of the Bride and the Mother of Christ? That is the reason you need to acknowledge Mary as the mother of God (And that she has a special role). IMO God is our Father, God is the Father of Mary too. So therefore if God is the Father of Mary and God is the Father of Jesus, then they have to be brother and sister right?

So if Mary and Jesus are brother and sister as we are brothers and sisters to Jesus too, then we are brothers and sisters in Christ with Mary too, so she is certainly not our mother, “the Mother of the Church”. She is mother of the earthly part of Jesus. And yes Jesus was before everything including His human nature.

We all are gifts of God to our parents, but we need to understand that the One who really gives birth to the invisible is God, our Father. A couple makes the house for the soul and spirit, and is their duty to raise their children.

What am really arguing here is that you cannot give birth or conceive to something that was already. That’s it. The Spirit of Jesus was already so Mary couldn’t have been able to give birth to Jesus Spirit, Jesus was sent from the Father to Earth in this way, by Sending the Holy Spirit to impregnate Mary. She carried God, the Son (God-bearer) but didn’t give birth to His Spirit, she only gave birth to His flesh, His body.

And why did she raised Him, if He is God? Because He made Himself human, and His flesh made Him weak, this is the reason He needed to learn, and be raised, to eat, etc. He needed to live like a human, He needed to do everything a Human has to do, a Human always has parents, a human needs to understand the world, a normal human needs to be baptized , He got baptized but only to be a perfect role model, because He didn’t need it. This is why I say she is the mother of earthly Jesus and not of God the Son.

“And do not call anyone on earth father, for you have one Father, and he is in heaven” (Matthew 23:9)

We have earthly parents, but we have our real heavenly Father so does Jesus.

Again remember this is a mystery, you need to understand others views. Sometimes people are afraid to admit that God is three persons because they are scared to be worshiping 3 gods, when its not true, so they defend their view, they aren’t wrong in a sense, there is only one God but He is a triune God. No need to call them heretic, they are just too weak to digest this information. Maybe this is my case maybe not, but you can’t call someone a heretic just because they don’t understand a mystery of God.

Jesus was never born, He already was, what was born was His body, his flesh. Mary the mother Jesus humanity, Jesus Human nature. Jesus is Mary’s big brother

God bless!

 

[onenow1]

The Crux of the matter elucidated:Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ, a ‘DIVINE PERSON’.

Since Mary gave birth to a divine person, that makes her the Mother of GOD.
In Scripture:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with GOD, and the Word was GOD.” and taken together with…John 1:1, “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.” John 1:14

The Word was GOD and the Word was made flesh.
Who supplied the flesh and blood of the Divine Word?
The Blessed Virgin Mary did. She is the mother of the Divine Word Incarnate.

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father’? John14:8-9

And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously.”
And he said to them, “How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” And they did not understand the saying which he spoke to them Luke 2 : 48-49

God Bless All
Onenow1opcorn:

PS. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. Luke 1:32

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Arininski: The healthy argument is gettig facetious. We have explained that Joseph was not the God-bearer. I do not know the logistics of his fatherliness. I do not want to set up a trap for me. I trust the Church on that one; whatever her position is. We do not and cannot understand fully the mystery but we can at least know WHAT the mystery is: that is Mother of God. She deserves the title because of her perfection through the merits of Christ, her (and ours) redeemer. What you are sayin sounds very reasonable but the logic is not there and I certainly understand it; I never once did not understand your view. Otherwise, I would have asked or simply not responded. We cannot think in terms (as far as this goes anyway) of our temporality and our own limited minds. Mary is special, very special. Our lowliness does not deserve to be compared with her. Mine certainly does not. She carried, protected and gave the Word to the world; the Church carries, protects and speaks the Word to the world… so to speak This is my view. I apologize if I called you a heretic, please forgive me if I did. I really did not mean to. You are just trying to understand our position and I am just trying to explain/defend it; although, I am clearly doing a poor job of it. Take care

 

[Araninski]

I didn’t say Joseph was the God-bearer, since when fathers hold their sons in their wombs?. I am just saying he helped raising Jesus and he has no title of being Father of God, the Son, he is very special too, because of him , Mary could give birth to baby Jesus right? Joseph didn’t let the Jews stone Mary to death, he also protected Jesus in his childhood and gave his care to Jesus. IMO Joseph also did a very important job as well as Mary. If she is not the Mother of God ,then she is not very special/important, no because, I heard that we are so important/special to God that He sent His only begotten Son to Earth, so that anyone who believes(follow Him, live their lives as Him) on Him would be saved.

We who follow Christ, and live like He lived are important and very special. Because God wants us to be the light of this world, He want us to preach for everybody to know that God is a great God, loving, caring and He offers us salvation through His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. And with the Holy Spirit that He sent us we can live like Him, and have gifts from the Holy Spirit (I would like Catholics to have more emphasis on the Holy Spirit, like us) that help us in our daily walk, spiritual growth and preaching.

God is the only Special one, we are only special because He loves us and He knows whats the best for us, all of our merits in Christ are not ours but of God, if someone deserves titles is Him.

As for Mary I see her as my sister in Christ, whom I will see in Heaven, God willing. So do I love Mary, of course! as well as my other brothers and sisters in Christ, but God has the monopoly of my heart

Don’t worry about it.

God bless you in your endeavors.