Non-Catholics, Mortal Sins, and Heaven

[ckempston]

I have a question for Catholics who believe Protestants are simply separated bretheren, Christians, and that they are (at least for the most part) going to heaven. This may seem like a strange line of questioning from a non-Catholic, but it is more of a curiosity, and an apparent inconsistency I see in Catholic teaching.

A couple of statements that I think are factual, and some questions to go along, but please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong:

Mortal sin damages one’s relationship with God to such an extent that dying in a state of mortal sin means you go to Hell (according to Catholic doctrine).

The only way for Mortal Sin to be forgiven (according to Catholic teaching) is through the sacrament of Confession/Penance.

Protestants do not receive the sacrament of Confession/Penance, but believe anything from confession being a “one-another” thing to being directly go God. (Some may go to confession, but since their “Orders” (e.g. Anglican) are invalid, is sacrament also invalid???)

Most Protestants will commit mortal sin at some point in their lives.

How is it they can then go to heaven? Or is the answer simply that they cannot? Is disbelief an excuse? (e.g. I don’t believe missing my “sunday obligation” is a mortal sin, but if that were true, it would not change based on my disbelief). It seems like ignorance is an excuse in some cases, so long as the person is not violating natural law such as committing murder, and only committing a sin that is considered mortal, but in ignorance and without full knowledge (I think I’m explaing that correctly).

Feel free to correct and explain, but please don’t flame me if I’m explaining the Catholic position wrong.

 

[Jay53]

My personal opinion (and I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong in my thinking! ) is that everyone will have to answer to God for what they do in their lives. For example, Catholics have been given the Full Truth and are expected to live their lives accordingly. Protestants, on the other hand, especially if they have never been exposed to Catholicism, will have to answer for their deeds based on what they know. I.E. if a child has only ever been Methodist (just for example), but lives his life as a faithful Methodist, I don’t believe God would send him to hell just for not following Catholic doctrine. I think the same holds true for other non-Christian faiths. If a child is raised as a Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist and is never exposed to Christianity or has been taught incorrectly the truth about Christianity, how can he be held accountable for that? I’d like to think that when we die, if someone did not know Jesus in life, that he will have a chance to meet Him, know the Truth, and choose to accept/reject Him. For anyone who WAS Catholic, but then rejected that faith, I have no idea. I think that here on earth, we cannot make any judgments about the state of anyone’s soul. Everyone has to answer for what they do here on earth. Ultimately it’s up to God. (And I’m very happy He’s the one deciding!)

 

[adrift]

I
The only way for Mortal Sin to be forgiven (according to Catholic teaching) is through the sacrament of Confession/Penance.

.

No this is not the only way just the best way. A perfect contrition also forgives sins.

Feel free to correct and explain, but please don’t flame me if I’m explaining the Catholic position wrong.
Reply With Quote

Someone would flame you Your question is respectful. I don’t understand why you would get flames. Shame on them:tsktsk:

 

[ckempston]

My personal opinion (and I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong in my thinking! ) is that everyone will have to answer to God for what they do in their lives. For example, Catholics have been given the Full Truth and are expected to live their lives accordingly. Protestants, on the other hand, especially if they have never been exposed to Catholicism, will have to answer for their deeds based on what they know. I.E. if a child has only ever been Methodist (just for example), but lives his life as a faithful Methodist, I don’t believe God would send him to hell just for not following Catholic doctrine. I think the same holds true for other non-Christian faiths. If a child is raised as a Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist and is never exposed to Christianity or has been taught incorrectly the truth about Christianity, how can he be held accountable for that? I’d like to think that when we die, if someone did not know Jesus in life, that he will have a chance to meet Him, know the Truth, and choose to accept/reject Him. For anyone who WAS Catholic, but then rejected that faith, I have no idea. I think that here on earth, we cannot make any judgments about the state of anyone’s soul. Everyone has to answer for what they do here on earth. Ultimately it’s up to God. (And I’m very happy He’s the one deciding!)

Jay, thanks for your answer. I happen to believe similarly to you. The final answer is, of course, that it’s up to God as you say. I’m still interested in any “official” position of the church. By and large, I find the Catholic church’s official positions to be pretty charitable, but I’m still curious.

 

[ckempston]

No this is not the only way just the best way. A perfect contrition also forgives sins.

Thanks for this. Honestly, I’ve heard the term “perfect contrition” before, but had not made the connection with this question. I still wonder, how “perfect” exactly does “perfect contrition” have to be in order to attain it? I mean, no human can do anything perfectly, or by “perfect” does the Catholic church mean “complete” and not “perfect” as moderns understand it? I guess I’m wondering if this just winds up being a sort of “no true Scotsman” type of argument?

Someone would flame you Your question is respectful. I don’t understand why you would get flames. Shame on them:tsktsk:

Well, I made that statement more to assure people that I was not attacking the church, merely seeking clarification. Some Catholics do seem to see questions as an attack, so I figured I’d preempt any flamings.

 

[Soutane]

This is a question that truly troubles me.Are Catholics held to a higher accounting to God than an Anglican,a Presbyterian,a Baptist,an Adventist,etc.etc.etc.If so,why?
Is this a case of invincible ignorance trumping that which according to the Church is a necessity?
I reiterate your very astute question as there are non-Catholics and Protestants in my life that I love dearly and am concerned for and worried about.(also I want and pray for the salvation of everyone on the face of this planet.)

 

[adrift]

I guess I’m wondering if this just winds up being a sort of “no true Scotsman” type of argument?

I haven’t heard of this one before. So I don’t know how to answer. I did look it up but I couldn’t see how it might apply:blush:

True contrition is hard to attain because of the nature of human nature. It is a total sorrow because we have hurt God not because we fear His punishment. Only God would know if it were. That is why I said the sacrament is better because with true contrition there is not assurance of sin being forgiven where as the sacrament there is. At least that is the way for me. I cannot judge another’s conscience. After writing this I kind of see what you mean with the Scotsman. I would hope you would see why it is not but I would concede that it is very difficult but not impossible to achieve. I am not capable of it but that does not mean others are not.

 

[adrift]

This is a question that truly troubles me.Are Catholics held to a higher accounting to God than an Anglican,a Presbyterian,a Baptist,an Adventist,etc.etc.etc.If so,why?
Is this a case of invincible ignorance trumping that which according to the Church is a necessity?
I reiterate your very astute question as there are non-Catholics and Protestants in my life that I love dearly and am concerned for and worried about.(also I want and pray for the salvation of everyone on the face of this planet.)

I would say yes to your question but with the higher accounting come more graces through the seven sacraments, sacramentals, and the Communion of Saints. Those who do not have these avenues of grace have a rougher road I believe.

 

[ckempston]

This is a question that truly troubles me.Are Catholics held to a higher accounting to God than an Anglican,a Presbyterian,a Baptist,an Adventist,etc.etc.etc.If so,why?
Is this a case of invincible ignorance trumping that which according to the Church is a necessity?
I reiterate your very astute question as there are non-Catholics and Protestants in my life that I love dearly and am concerned for and worried about.(also I want and pray for the salvation of everyone on the face of this planet.)

This is exactly the conflict to which I am referring and I hope someone can answer the question to some level of satisfaction for both Catholics and Protestants.

 

[ckempston]

I haven’t heard of this one before. So I don’t know how to answer. I did look it up but I couldn’t see how it might apply:blush:

True contrition is hard to attain because of the nature of human nature. It is a total sorrow because we have hurt God not because we fear His punishment. Only God would know if it were. That is why I said the sacrament is better because with true contrition there is not assurance of sin being forgiven where as the sacrament there is. At least that is the way for me. I cannot judge another’s conscience. After writing this I kind of see what you mean with the Scotsman. I would hope you would see why it is not but I would concede that it is very difficult but not impossible to achieve. I am not capable of it but that does not mean others are not.

It’s not perfectly applicable, hence my “sort of” qualifier. It’s similar in that you would likely not find someone who anyone would consider fitting the bill of being “perfectly contrite.”

 

[adrift]

It’s not perfectly applicable, hence my “sort of” qualifier. It’s similar in that you would likely not find someone who anyone would consider fitting the bill of being “perfectly contrite.”

I thought maybe that is what you meant. I don’t think we can judge that. I do think it is possible but the only judge that it was perfect would be God. This is why I believe Jesus instituted this Sacrament because it is hard to be “perfectly contrite.”

 

[ckempston]

After reading the Catechism regarding the necessity of auricular confession in the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation, and the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Penance, I am no closer to an answer on this.

Although adrift’s answer on Perfect Contrition would be a nice solution, I didn’t see it mentioned in the Catechism, so if anyone can point me to that (or another source that would be considered “official”) that would be helpful.

I could see why the church would be reluctant to take an official position or elaborate too much on its view of Protestants in regards to salvation. To say that they can indeed attain heaven without the sacrament of Penance would seem to be a pretty large inconsistency. On the other hand, claiming it as a necessity for mortal sins, regardless of denominational association, and therefore taking the position that a very large number (probably almost all) Protestants would go to hell, would seem to make the Catholic position that Protestants are “saved” disingenuous.

I see several possible explanations, none of which seem likely to be palatable to Catholics:

Ignorance of (or disbelief in) the Sacrament of Penance excuses non-Catholics.
The Sacrament of Penance is only applicable to Catholics.
(The two statements above really almost say the same thing in different ways.)
The Catholic church is mischaracterizing the Protestants’ status when it says they are saved and will go to heaven.

There may be other explanations, but I don’t think any of them would seem acceptable. The positive ones, which allow Protestants will ultimately be saved, would require a special dispensation. The negative ones, in which Protestants just go to Hell, would again render the Catholic teaching that they are saved as a misrepresentation of the facts.

 

[joshua_b]

I have a question for Catholics who believe Protestants are simply separated bretheren, Christians, and that they are (at least for the most part) going to heaven. This may seem like a strange line of questioning from a non-Catholic, but it is more of a curiosity, and an apparent inconsistency I see in Catholic teaching.

A couple of statements that I think are factual, and some questions to go along, but please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong:

Mortal sin damages one’s relationship with God to such an extent that dying in a state of mortal sin means you go to Hell (according to Catholic doctrine).Mortal Sin separates us from God. In order for someone to be guilty of mortal sin, three conditions have to be met. 1) The sin must be of objectively “grave matter”. 2) The person involved in such sin must have full knowledge that their actions are against the will fo God, and therefore sinful. 3) In light of full knowledge, the person must commit the sin of their own free will. To die in a state of unrepented mortal sin will exclude you from God’s eternal presence, but the Church also teaches that only God, Who’s wisdom and mercy are infinite beyond our human comprehension can determine whether or not an individual is truly in a state of mortal sin.Mitigating factors applicable only to an individual’s circumstance COULD very well make a sin of grave matter less than mortal. That is up to God and God alone (not the Church) to decide. The Church can only give an objective presentation of Truth, and warn of the possibility that your sould may be in danger; it can not pass difinitive judgement on anyone.

The only way for Mortal Sin to be forgiven (according to Catholic teaching) is through the sacrament of Confession/Penance.This is incorrect. The “normative” and difinitive means for the forgiveness of mortal sin is the Sacrament of Reconciliation. The official teaching is that only through Reconciliation can we be ASSURED that mortal sin has been absolved. In the absence of the Sacrament, our absolution and forgiveness is left unknown, and at the determination of God, outside of what the Church holds to be True.

Protestants do not receive the sacrament of Confession/Penance, but believe anything from confession being a “one-another” thing to being directly go God. (Some may go to confession, but since their “Orders” (e.g. Anglican) are invalid, is sacrament also invalid???)In order for the sacramental absolution of Reconcilliation to be valid, it must come from a priest validly ordained through Apostolic Succession, under the permission and authority of the local presiding bishop. This does not destine them to hell, but simply puts their fate outside of the certainty of forgiveness through valid sacramental absolution.

Most Protestants will commit mortal sin at some point in their lives.Only God can determine that.

How is it they can then go to heaven? Or is the answer simply that they cannot? Is disbelief an excuse? (e.g. I don’t believe missing my “sunday obligation” is a mortal sin, but if that were true, it would not change based on my disbelief). It seems like ignorance is an excuse in some cases, so long as the person is not violating natural law such as committing murder, and only committing a sin that is considered mortal, but in ignorance and without full knowledge (I think I’m explaing that correctly).Hopefully my previous posts have explained this enough to at least get the discussion started.

Feel free to correct and explain, but please don’t flame me if I’m explaining the Catholic position wrong.

This is good stuff here. I look forward to teh ensuing conversation.

 

[spoiltvictorian]

In order for the sacramental absolution of Reconcilliation to be valid, it must come from a priest validly ordained through Apostolic Succession, under the permission and authority of the local presiding bishop. This does not destine them to hell, but simply puts their fate outside of the certainty of forgiveness through valid sacramental absolution.

Interesting. So you would deny that my Lutheran pastor absolves me of my sins before Holy Communion. If that’s true, you must be praying that Lutherans stop offering Christ’s Body and Blood as it is constantly being taken in an unworthy manner to our harm. Or do you believe Christ is not truly present at a Lutheran service, and therefore it doesn’t matter aside from our sin of believing error?

 

[joshua_b]

After reading the Catechism regarding the necessity of auricular confession in the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation, and the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Penance, I am no closer to an answer on this.

Although adrift’s answer on Perfect Contrition would be a nice solution, I didn’t see it mentioned in the Catechism, so if anyone can point me to that (or another source that would be considered “official”) that would be helpful.1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm

I could see why the church would be reluctant to take an official position or elaborate too much on its view of Protestants in regards to salvation. To say that they can indeed attain heaven without the sacrament of Penance would seem to be a pretty large inconsistency. On the other hand, claiming it as a necessity for mortal sins, regardless of denominational association, and therefore taking the position that a very large number (probably almost all) Protestants would go to hell, would seem to make the Catholic position that Protestants are “saved” disingenuous.

I see several possible explanations, none of which seem likely to be palatable to Catholics:

Ignorance of (or disbelief in) the Sacrament of Penance excuses non-Catholics.God does not hold us accountable to that which we have not been made aware, through no fault of our own. It can excuse SOME non-Catholics dependent entirely on circumstance. God will not require something that is impossible.
The Sacrament of Penance is only applicable to Catholics.
(The two statements above really almost say the same thing in different ways.)There is a nuance of difference, and I don’t know that I have a well formulated answer to this. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is binding on all who have been presented with, and are capable of discerning the objective Truth of the doctrine.
The Catholic church is mischaracterizing the Protestants’ status when it says they are saved and will go to heaven.The Catholic Church has never made an official pronouncement of anyone’s damnation.

There may be other explanations, but I don’t think any of them would seem acceptable. The positive ones, which allow Protestants will ultimately be saved, would require a special dispensation. The negative ones, in which Protestants just go to Hell, would again render the Catholic teaching that they are saved as a misrepresentation of the facts.

 

[ckempston]

Mortal Sin separates us from God. In order for someone to be guilty of mortal sin, three conditions have to be met. 1) The sin must be of objectively “grave matter”. 2) The person involved in such sin must have full knowledge that their actions are against the will fo God, and therefore sinful. 3) In light of full knowledge, the person must commit the sin of their own free will. To die in a state of unrepented mortal sin will exclude you from God’s eternal presence, but the Church also teaches that only God, Who’s wisdom and mercy are infinite beyond our human comprehension can determine whether or not an individual is truly in a state of mortal sin.Mitigating factors applicable only to an individual’s circumstance COULD very well make a sin of grave matter less than mortal. That is up to God and God alone (not the Church) to decide. The Church can only give an objective presentation of Truth, and warn of the possibility that your sould may be in danger; it can not pass difinitive judgement on anyone.

I hate to split hairs and quibble over words, but repenting and being forgiven (according to Catholicism) are two different things (no?). Forgiveness (I’m talking mortal sins) occurs in the Sacrament only, does it not? (I thought Confession/Penance/Reconciliation all referred to basically the same thing, so I’m not really sure which one I’m referring to here).

This is incorrect. The “normative” and difinitive means for the forgiveness of mortal sin is the Sacrament of Reconciliation. The official teaching is that only through Reconciliation can we be ASSURED that mortal sin has been absolved. In the absence of the Sacrament, our absolution and forgiveness is left unknown, and at the determination of God, outside of what the Church holds to be True.

I’ll have to re-read the Catechism, but it doesn’t seem to allow for what you’re saying here (i.e. that the state is unknown). It seems to say that if you’re not forgiven in the Sacrement by a priest, then you’re not forgiven, period. The Catechism, and the Catholic Encyclopedia, seemed to argue this point pretty vigorously.

In order for the sacramental absolution of Reconcilliation to be valid, it must come from a priest validly ordained through Apostolic Succession, under the permission and authority of the local presiding bishop. This does not destine them to hell, but simply puts their fate outside of the certainty of forgiveness through valid sacramental absolution.

The whole “uncertainty” approach is an interesting one, if indeed that’s the “official” position. From what I read it wasn’t simply a matter of certainty, but a matter of fact that (mortal) sins are only forgiven in the Sacraments.

Only God can determine that.

I would tend to agree with you, but I was referring to the Catholic teaching. It does indeed say that Protestants are Christians and can go to heaven, but if even one mortal sin is committed in a person’s lifetime, that sends them to hell according to Catholic doctrine (I find it highly unlikely that anyone who does not die 5 minutes after baptism goes their whole life without mortally sinning). It says that pretty well point blank and doesn’t seem open for interpretation. If you die in a state of mortal sin, you go to hell.

This is good stuff here. I look forward to teh ensuing conversation.

Glad that you engaged.

 

[joshua_b]

Interesting. So you would deny that my Lutheran pastor absolves me of my sins before Holy Communion. If that’s true, you must be praying that Lutherans stop offering Christ’s Body and Blood as it is constantly being taken in an unworthy manner to our harm. Or do you believe Christ is not truly present at a Lutheran service, and therefore it doesn’t matter aside from our sin of believing error?

In order for Sacramental absolution to be valid and binding (In the Biblical sense of the term), it must be received from one who has been validly ordained through true and verifiable Apostolic succession. The same prerequisite holds true for a valid Eucharist, which contains the presence of Christ in Body Blood Soul and Divinity. If your pastor has received valid (although illicit) orders from a “rogue bishop” (highly unlikely, but it IS possible, and HAS happened before) then that would shift the polemics of the discussion entirely.

I believe as the Catholic Church teaches, which is that there is no Real Presence in the Lutheran Eucharist. Whether or not “Christ is truly present” outside of those terms is not for me, or the Catholic Church to determine. I will also make the same statement in response to your comment about “the sin of believing error”. Whether or not you are guilty of sin because of your beliefs is for God to determine, not me or the Catholic Church.

 

[joshua_b]

I hate to split hairs and quibble over words, but repenting and being forgiven (according to Catholicism) are two different things (no?). Forgiveness (I’m talking mortal sins) occurs in the Sacrament only, does it not? (I thought Confession/Penance/Reconciliation all referred to basically the same thing, so I’m not really sure which one I’m referring to here).
If I understand you correctly, yes “repentance” and “forgiveness” are two separate terms. Forgiveness of mortal sin normatively occurs in the Sacrament. God is free to dispense forgiveness as He chooses. You are correct that Confession/Penance/Reconciliation can all be used interchangably in reference to the Sacrament.

I’ll have to re-read the Catechism, but it doesn’t seem to allow for what you’re saying here (i.e. that the state is unknown). It seems to say that if you’re not forgiven in the Sacrement by a priest, then you’re not forgiven, period. The Catechism, and the Catholic Encyclopedia, seemed to argue this point pretty vigorously.
I concede to standing corrected on this point, with a very distinct qualification. The necessity of Sacramental Absolution is for mortal sin. ONLY God can determine by circumstance, with the totality of all factors that may apply to an individual, whether or not a sin is “mortal”. The Church can give an objective definition and the criteria for mortal sin, but can never difinitively declare anyone as being in the state of mortal sin.

The whole “uncertainty” approach is an interesting one, if indeed that’s the “official” position. From what I read it wasn’t simply a matter of certainty, but a matter of fact that (mortal) sins are only forgiven in the Sacraments.I will continue my previous response down here…the uncertainty comes more from not having absolute knowledge of whether or not we are truly in a state of mortal sin.

I would tend to agree with you, but I was referring to the Catholic teaching. It does indeed say that Protestants are Christians and can go to heaven, but if even one mortal sin is committed in a person’s lifetime, that sends them to hell according to Catholic doctrine (I find it highly unlikely that anyone who does not die 5 minutes after baptism goes their whole life without mortally sinning). It says that pretty well point blank and doesn’t seem open for interpretation. If you die in a state of mortal sin, you go to hell. Again, the imperative is that one must be in a state of “mortal sin”, which is for God alone to determine with absolute declaration…sorry, I have repeated that too much, but I feel it is an important point.

Glad that you engaged.

 

[joshua_b]

Rather than rely on my inferior intellect and verbal prowess, I opt to let the Church make her own point…vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm

This section in particular articulates what I have been trying (and repeatedly failing) to say…1859 Mortal sin requires **full knowledge **and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

 

[ckempston]

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm

So, we’re still in the same boat. A non-Catholic would never resolve to have “recourse to sacramental confession,” and would therefore (under this definition) still be in a state of mortal sin.

God does not hold us accountable to that which we have not been made aware, through no fault of our own. It can excuse SOME non-Catholics dependent entirely on circumstance. God will not require something that is impossible.

I’m aware, for instance, of the Catholic teaching that using any type of birth control (outside NFP, and that only for good reasons), is guilty of a mortal sin. I don’t believe it, though (with the exception of abortifactants). Disbelief doesn’t typically excuse people from sin (although ignorance sometimes does). Unless we give that disbelief is a form of ignorance based on an incorrect understanding, etc.

There is a nuance of difference, and I don’t know that I have a well formulated answer to this. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is binding on all who have been presented with, and are capable of discerning the objective Truth of the doctrine.

Ok. Kind of relates to the ascent of the mind thing, doesn’t it?

The Catholic Church has never made an official pronouncement of anyone’s damnation.

Ok. I was going to say that you could reasonably infer, based on the fact that dying in mortal sin sends you to hell, but you’ve even rejected that on the disclaimer that only God knows for sure.

I’m surprised I haven’t learned my lesson now. The Catholic church rarely leaves wiggle room.