Non catholics need penitential prayer too

[babylonsfalling]

The penitential prayer is something which is very good and which would greatly improve most non catholic church services. Everyone collectively saying this prayer together at the beginning of church sets up a proper, more humble disposition before God…

I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, <-----This part is not necessary
all the angels and saints, <-----This part is not necessary either
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord, our God amen .

We are told in the Bible to confess our sins to each other:

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

The catholic penitential prayer might be imperfect in that it does not amount to confession of specific, individual sins but I don’t know how it could be perfected because the entire congregation confessing each individual sin one person at a time would go on forever. Catholics are at least doing something to keep themselves in line with confession of sins whereas every non catholic church I’ve been to does nothing….though I suspect Luthern’s might be an exception.

I know one of the arguments against the penitential prayer would be that we are already forgiven for all our sins at the time of salvation, which I believe, but James knew that also and STILL said we should confess.

Clearly we’re at least supposed to try to sin less which is hard work for all us of and takes discipline. A routine, public confession of our sins helps us remember that we are all still sinners and keeps this at the forefront of our minds, instead of somewhere in the background as seems to be the case with some non catholic churches I’ve been to which have NO type of collective penitential prayer.

Being more aware of our ongoing sinful nature may be one of the reasons why I never hear catholics saying things like “it’s doesn’t matter because I’m already forgiven”….something which I’ve ONLY heard from non catholics and which is WAY too dismissive of ongoing sin.

Catholics have a greater awareness of our ongoing sinful nature and make greater attempts at getting away from sin to be greatest degree possible. It’s keeps them more correctly humble before God…non catholic churches I’ve been too have all been lacking in this regard.

This is where non catholics could take lesson from catholics. I believe a type of collectively said penitential prayer added into non catholic services would greatly improve them.

 

[DavidFilmer]

and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, <-----This part is not necessary
all the angels and saints, <-----This part is not necessary either
…]
We are told in the Bible to confess our sins to each other:

As Catholics, we do not believe that death cuts off from the Body of Christ. We believe that Jesus defeated death. Thus, we believe we are in communion with each other on earth, and also with those in heaven.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

You have cited one of the verses that Catholics use especially to recommend including the Saints in our prayers. Who is more righteous than those who stand before the Throne of God?

 

[babylonsfalling]

As Catholics, we do not believe that death cuts off from the Body of Christ. We believe that Jesus defeated death. Thus, we believe we are in communion with each other on earth, and also with those in heaven.

You have cited one of the verses that Catholics use especially to recommend including the Saints in our prayers. Who is more righteous than those who stand before the Throne of God?

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

When James wrote that verse and when he said “pray on for another” he was speaking to Christians on earth about mutual prayer between themselves; everyone praying for each other and asking prayer for themselves. The term “pray one for another” is about mutual prayer, and heavenly saints don’t need mutual prayer. The statement does not include saints in heaven because they don’t need mutual prayer where they would pray for another and another would pray for them. You’re reading more into the statement than what it says.

Is there any scripture which particularly and clearly says we should pray to the saints in heaven?

I’d really like to see that Scripture if it exists. I’ve been wrong about lots of things regarding catholicism and I’m not out to just win this argument just for the sake of winning so I can be objective, but I want to see it in the Bible…and clearly. Using the verse from James is a case of inferring something into it.

I don’t know that there’s anything particularly wrong with praying to a saint in heaven, and I’m not saying that just because something isn’t in the Bible, it means we cannot do it.

But I still want to see where in the Bible is it clearly called for in a way that clearly references those who have passed through physical death?

 

[DavidFilmer]

When James wrote that verse and when he said “pray on for another” he was speaking to Christians on earth about mutual prayer between themselves; everyone praying for each other and asking prayer for themselves.

Where are you getting that from? It says, “pray one for another.” That means one person is praying for another person. It doesn’t mean the other person is praying in return (which is what “mutual” means). I can pray for people who don’t even know me - they cannot possibly pray for me, but I can pray for them.

Is there any scripture which particularly and clearly says we should pray to the saints in heaven?

No. It’s something the Church has always taught, but it is not clearly stated in the Bible. Of course, it’s not clearly opposed either.

It all comes down to the difference between how Catholics and protestants view death. Catholics don’t really believe in death. We are in spiritual communion with each other while on earth (the mystical Body of Christ) - death does not break that communion. Death does not separate us from the Body of Christ.

Protestants believe that death has power over their spirits and can cut us off from the Body. Catholics don’t believe that death has any spiritual power whatsoever. It destroys the body, but has no affect on the spirit. Paul (and Hamlet) said it well: “Death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” (1Cor15:55).

 

[Lampo]

Is there any scripture which particularly and clearly says we should pray to the saints in heaven?

Not explicitly. Where in the Bible does it say that to be considered Christian it must be explicitly found in Scripture?

 

[JoshuaNY]

I also think it is important to be aware of your sins at all time. And praying a penitential prayer is important. In the Lutheran Church we pray one each week as part of the service.

Here is an example:
Most merciful God, we confess that we are by nature sinful and unclean. We have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved You with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We justly deserve Your present and eternal punishment. For the sake of Your Son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. Forgive us, renew us, and lead us, so that we may delight in Your will and walk in Your ways to the glory of your Holy Name. Amen.

And as u mentioned Lutherans also beleive in confessing sins to a Peer. However, this is not done that often. Most Lutheran Churches I have been to do not really talk about confessing to a Pastor. I dont think it was mentioned at all when I was growing up. The absolution above during the service forgives us our sins. At my Church one must make an appointment.

 

[Lampo]

I also think it is important to be aware of your sins at all time. And praying a penitential prayer is important. In the Lutheran Church we pray one each week as part of the service.

Here is an example:
Most merciful God, we confess that we are by nature sinful and unclean. We have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved You with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We justly deserve Your present and eternal punishment. For the sake of Your Son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. Forgive us, renew us, and lead us, so that we may delight in Your will and walk in Your ways to the glory of your Holy Name. Amen.

And as u mentioned Lutherans also beleive in confessing sins to a Peer. However, this is not done that often. Most Lutheran Churches I have been to do not really talk about confessing to a Pastor. I dont think it was mentioned at all when I was growing up. The absolution above during the service forgives us our sins. At my Church one must make an appointment.

That’s pretty much the way my Lutheran (LCMS) father-in-law described it too. What do you think about the 2,000 year Church practice of the necessity of confessing mortal sins to a priest? Who does the Lutheran church say has the authority to retain sins as the Bible says?

 

[joemccarron]

Joshua

I have always understood that the prayer you quote is what Lutheran’s consider a confession to eachother. There is a passage out of the bible that says Christians should confess their sins to eachother and I think this prayer is it - for Lutherans.

As a Catholic I have to say this form of confession seems rather vague and maybe even milktoast compared to having to confess particular sins. But I do very much appreciate that the Lutheran’s still maintain the requirement that people confess their sins before they take communion.

In the Missouri Synod after this prayer is said the Pastor actually says something along the lines of: by the power vested in me as a … I forgive you all your sins.

I also think it is important to be aware of your sins at all time. And praying a penitential prayer is important. In the Lutheran Church we pray one each week as part of the service.

Here is an example:
Most merciful God, we confess that we are by nature sinful and unclean. We have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved You with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We justly deserve Your present and eternal punishment. For the sake of Your Son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. Forgive us, renew us, and lead us, so that we may delight in Your will and walk in Your ways to the glory of your Holy Name. Amen.

And as u mentioned Lutherans also beleive in confessing sins to a Peer. However, this is not done that often. Most Lutheran Churches I have been to do not really talk about confessing to a Pastor. I dont think it was mentioned at all when I was growing up. The absolution above during the service forgives us our sins. At my Church one must make an appointment.

 

[JoshuaNY]

Joshua

I have always understood that the prayer you quote is what Lutheran’s consider a confession to eachother. There is a passage out of the bible that says Christians should confess their sins to eachother and I think this prayer is it - for Lutherans.

As a Catholic I have to say this form of confession seems rather vague and maybe even milktoast compared to having to confess particular sins. But I do very much appreciate that the Lutheran’s still maintain the requirement that people confess their sins before they take communion.

In the Missouri Synod after this prayer is said the Pastor actually says something along the lines of: by the power vested in me as a … I forgive you all your sins.

Yeah I didn’t add the part the Pastor plays. He says something like…Almighty God in his mercy has given his Son to die for us and, for his sake, forgives us all our sins. Through his Holy Spirit he cleanses us and gives us power to proclaim the mighty deeds of God who called us out of darkness into the splendor of his light. As a called and ordained minister of the Church of Christ and by his authority, I therefore declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the + Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

As for confessing particular sins The Book of Concord which is the Confession of Lutheran Beleifs is as follows:

Article XI: Of Confession.

1] Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches, although in confession 2] an enumeration of all sins is not necessary. For it is impossible according to the Psalm: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19:12

That is not to say that we shouldnt confess particular sins, but if we do not remember one it does not mean it is not forgiven. Thus, the above congregational absolution is as absolute. (no pun intended)

What do you think about the 2,000 year Church practice of the necessity of confessing mortal sins to a priest? Who does the Lutheran church say has the authority to retain sins as the Bible says?

As I follow the Augusburg Confessions I do not beleive it is necessary to confess my sins personaly. I think it is a good practice but not neccesary for forgiveness. On the same note, the Pastor can retain your sins, but during the congregational absolution if you are not truly sorry for sinning against God then you are not really forgiven.

On a personal note, I would love to see confessionals in every Lutheran Church.

 

[Lampo]

As I follow the Augusburg Confessions I do not beleive it is necessary to confess my sins personaly. I think it is a good practice but not neccesary for forgiveness. On the same note, the Pastor can retain your sins, but during the congregational absolution if you are not truly sorry for sinning against God then you are not really forgiven.

On a personal note, I would love to see confessionals in every Lutheran Church.

Thanks. We believe priests can retain sins too. On a side note, do Lutherans believe Holy Orders for Catholic priests to be valid? Just wondering if Lutherans believe pastors of all faith traditions have the authority to retain sins.

 

[joemccarron]

I also am interested in knowing how Lutherans view our sacraments. I know baptism and marriage is considered valid, but what about the eucharist?

I would think they would view them as valid but I’m not sure.

Also I understand that as long as I truthfully try to confess all of my particular sins at confession they will all be forgiven - even if I forgot a few. So I don’t think this is any different.

 

[JoshuaNY]

Thanks. We believe priests can retain sins too. On a side note, do Lutherans believe Holy Orders for Catholic priests to be valid? Just wondering if Lutherans believe pastors of all faith traditions have the authority to retain sins.

You know I really don’t know. I would think that we hold RC Priests to be able to forgive and retain sins. At this moment I can not find any hard evidence of it in my Google searches. As for other denominations I do not know that either. I will do more research.

joemccarron wrote: I also am interested in knowing how Lutherans view our sacraments. I know baptism and marriage is considered valid, but what about the eucharist?

Yes, I know for a fact that we do hold your Eucharist to be valid. On that note, it reinforces my statement above that we would hold that RC Priests and forgiving sings are valid as well. Unfortunately, the RCC does not hold our Eucharist valid. I pray for the day when we can all share in the Lords Supper at any of our altars. I know the RCC holds Lutheran Baptism and Marriage valid as well…

I wonder if the RCC consider our Confirmation a sacrament?

I really beleive that the Lutheran view and RC view of the sacraments would not be a huge dividing difference in trying to get the LC and RCC together. I feel like we mean the same thing just say it different.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I pray for the day when we can all share in the Lords Supper at any of our altars.

I do too, but it won’t happen by the Catholic Church compromising doctrine. Luther was a priest who left the Church, and took many with him. The only possible path to unity is reunification.

I know the RCC holds Lutheran Baptism and Marriage valid as well.

Lutheran Baptism is *absolutely *held to be valid, but Lutheran Marriage is only *presumed *to be valid. If a Lutheran couple converted to the Catholic Church and later decided to divorce, there is a good chance their marriage could be examined by a marriage tribunal and declared non-Sacramental and thus annulled.

I wonder if the RCC consider our Confirmation a sacrament?

No, sorry. It couldn’t be possible in any event, because Lutherans have forsaken Apostolic Orders. You need an Apostolic Bishop for Confirmation. The Catholic Church recognizes the validity of Confirmation only in Churches which have preserved Apostolic Orders (such as the Greek Orthodox or the Polish National Catholics).

 

[JoshuaNY]

I do too, but it won’t happen by the Catholic Church compromising doctrine. Luther was a priest who left the Church, and took many with him. The only possible path to unity is reunification.

Lutheran Baptism is *absolutely *held to be valid, but Lutheran Marriage is only *presumed *to be valid. If a Lutheran couple converted to the Catholic Church and later decided to divorce, there is a good chance their marriage could be examined by a marriage tribunal and declared non-Sacramental and thus annulled.

No, sorry. It couldn’t be possible in any event, because Lutherans have forsaken Apostolic Orders. You need an Apostolic Bishop for Confirmation. The Catholic Church recognizes the validity of Confirmation only in Churches which have preserved Apostolic Orders (such as the Greek Orthodox or the Polish National Catholics).

Thanks for the info. I was curious. I did not realize that the RCC confirmtation required a Bishop.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I did not realize that the RCC confirmtation required a Bishop.

It’s not just Confirmation. Obviously Orders requires an Apostolic Bishop. Eucharist, Confession, and Unction require (at least) a priest, but the priest must be ordained by a Bishop with Apostolic Orders - so one could say that a Bishop is required for those Sacraments as well. These five Sacraments are recognized by Rome for all Churches which have broken their unity with the Catholic Church but have maintained valid lines of Apostolic succession (and have not otherwise compromised Sacramental theology).

 

[JoshuaNY]

It’s not just Confirmation. Obviously Orders requires an Apostolic Bishop. Eucharist, Confession, and Unction require (at least) a priest, but the priest must be ordained by a Bishop with Apostolic Orders - so one could say that a Bishop is required for those Sacraments as well. These five Sacraments are recognized by Rome for all Churches which have broken their unity with the Catholic Church but have maintained valid lines of Apostolic succession (and have not otherwise compromised Sacramental theology).

I understood the RC view of the Orders, Eucharist, Confession and Unction. My question about confirmation was because in the Lutheran Church it is an afirmation of baptism. So since the RCC beleives the Lutheran Baptism is valid my thoughts were maybe Confirmation was too. Thank you for the information.

So now I am wondering why the RCC beleives our Baptisms to be valid since for all other sacraments you require apostolic succession? I know you acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins as professed in the Nicene Creed which we both profess.
So now I am just confused but no worries. Thanks

 

[DavidFilmer]

So now I am wondering why the RCC beleives our Baptisms to be valid since for all other sacraments you require apostolic succession?

Well, it’s not just Lutheran Baptism, but all Baptisms which use water and the Trinitarian formula ("In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit).

This doctrine was firmly established way back in the days of the early Church. There had been some heretical sects (followers of Novatian) that broke off, and continued doing Baptisms. Many of Novatian’s followers, however, decided to return to the Church. But what about those who had been Baptized by Novatian or his followers? These people are heretics - can they validly confer Baptism?

There was some debate about it among the Bishops. Cyprian of Carthage and the majority of north African Bishops thought the Baptisms were not valid, and Cyprian was a vocal opponent.

In Cyprian’s writings, he would not even use the term “Baptize” in relation to the heretics - he said “those made wet by heretics.” I’ve always thought that was amusing.

Cyprian was sometimes called “the African Pope” because of his great influence. However, despite the objections of Cyprian et al, Pope Stephen I (the actual Pope) declared that the Baptisms were valid.

Cyprian is, by the way, my favorite Early Church Father (even though he got it wrong about Baptism).

 

[JoshuaNY]

Kool thanks David. We too hold all baptisms valid if they follow that formula which makes sense.

 

[EricFilmer]

Thanks for the info. I was curious. I did not realize that the RCC confirmtation required a Bishop.

It’s not just Confirmation. Obviously Orders requires an Apostolic Bishop. Eucharist, Confession, and Unction require (at least) a priest, but the priest must be ordained by a Bishop with Apostolic Orders - so one could say that a Bishop is required for those Sacraments as well.

Allow me to provide just a little further elaboration and clarification on this aspect of the discussion. In the Catholic Church, the bishop is considered the minister of Confirmation under “ordinary” circumstances. Nevertheless, a priest is permitted to be the minister under “extraordinary conditions.” Such extraordinary conditions may be in terms of emergencies (for example, a Catholic is in danger of death and requests Confirmation) or in terms of practicality (for example, people converting to the Catholic Faith are traditionally confirmed at the Easter Vigil, and it is impossible for a bishop to do all such confirmations throughout his diocese on that day). In light of all this, under certain circumstances the power to bestow Confirmation is delegated by the bishop to the priests in his diocese. So, as David pointed out, ultimately a bishop is required for Confirmations to take place, even when a priest is acting as the minister of this sacrament.

Nevertheless, even though the Catholic Church believes that all baptisms which utilize water and the proper Trinitarian formula are valid, a person who was baptized specifically by a member of the Catholic clergy is considered a Catholic, and must be confirmed by a Catholic bishop (except in the case of an emergency). Hence, a baptized Protestant who converts to the Catholic Faith can be confirmed by the local Catholic priest (usually at the Easter Vigil, but it doesn’t have to be specifically on that day). But someone who was specifically baptized as a Catholic does not have this option (barring an emergency) and must wait for the bishop to make his annual visit to the parish (which is done expressly for this purpose).

And just as a side note, Catholic deacons cannot be ministers of Confirmation under any circumstances. So to wrap up the material in this post, the “official clergy line-up” for Confirmation is:
Bishop: Ordinary minister of Confirmation
Priest: Extraordinary minister of Confirmation
Deacon: Not a minister of Confirmation. He can hold the jar of Sacred Chrism for the bishop or priest during a Confirmation liturgy, but that’s pretty much it. (I’m not making light of the importance of the ministry of the deaconate - I’m just stating the facts as they pertain to this topic)

 

[JoshuaNY]

Nevertheless, even though the Catholic Church believes that all baptisms which utilize water and the proper Trinitarian formula are valid, a person who was baptized specifically by a member of the Catholic clergy is considered a Catholic, and must be confirmed by a Catholic bishop (except in the case of an emergency). Hence, a baptized Protestant who converts to the Catholic Faith can be confirmed by the local Catholic priest (usually at the Easter Vigil, but it doesn’t have to be specifically on that day). But someone who was specifically baptized as a Catholic does not have this option (barring an emergency) and must wait for the bishop to make his annual visit to the parish (which is done expressly for this purpose).

Thanks for the extra details. That helps with my understanding.