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PRmerger
Guest
I believe that we are the only Church that declares it a mortal sin not to keep holy the Lord’s Day.
Does your church declare this?
- Status
Does your church declare this?
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PRmerger
Guest
This is unscriptural, cooterhein. There is no bible verse that a “distinguishing characteristic” is required in order to determine whether one is “in the Spirit.”
For clearly, this would eliminate Jesus, for one could not look at him, a man, and see any distinguishing characteristics as to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Did he do anything differently when he was a newborn? Was there a halo around him visible to all? Did he make his toys come to life as a toddler?
What distinguishing characteristics could an outsider see in Christ when he was constructing a table under the tutelage of St. Joseph?
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cooterhein
Guest
I don’t think I said what you think I said.
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mortonsam
Guest
adherring to the 39 Articles of Religion.
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PRmerger
Guest
Fair enough.
What, then, would be a “reliable landmark”? And please cite a Scripture verse that supports this.
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cooterhein
Guest
I already did Romans 8, but I can put it up again.
“You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.”
The terms are laid out pretty clearly. All that remains is to ask if the Spirit of God dwells within you or not.
You obviously don’t start your life with the Spirit of God already dwelling within you. So if He does, there must have been a point where He got Himself there.
For most people, that didn’t happen simultaneously with their baptism.
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
Who cares what your church or my church says on this matter. It’s what God says that matters. Your church doesn’t get to say what is sin and what isn’t. 1Jn.3:4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Sin is the transgression of the law. Mark 2:27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
The son of man is Lord of the Sabbath making the Sabbath the Lord’s day and the Sabbath is Saturday. Luke 23:52-24:1
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PRmerger
Guest
What is the “reliable landmark” mentioned in Romans 8?
Baptism, you said, was not. So what is? And where does Romans 8 mention it?
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PRmerger
Guest
Well, 2 things.
One is you can separate what your church says from what God says.
But in my Church there is no dichotomy
Secondly, you would not know “what God says” were it not for the CC.
To wit: who discerned for you that this is God speaking:
*1Jn.3:4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Sin is the transgression of the law. Mark 2:27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
The son of man is Lord of the Sabbath making the Sabbath the Lord’s day and the Sabbath is Saturday. Luke 23:52-24:1*
but that this is not:
*
“Thou causest to err thereby whomever Thou pleasest and guidest whomever Thou pleasest…” *
[SIGN]The only reason you know that the first set of verses is God speaking, and the second is not, is because of my Church. [/SIGN]
Thus, we do not separate the Christ from His Body, the CC.
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cooterhein
Guest
"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you."What is the “reliable landmark” mentioned in Romans 8?
Baptism, you said, was not. So what is? And where does Romans 8 mention it?
The presence (or absence) of the Holy Spirit within you is the landmark. If He’s there, you are “in the Spirit.” You “belong to Him.” God will “give life to your mortal body through his Spirit who dwells in you.”
If you don’t have the Holy Spirit within you, you don’t belong to God.
So the landmark that you can look for is the Holy Spirit within you. If He isn’t within you, that’s no good. If He is, you belong to God.
Some baptized people have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them. Others do not. Some non- or yet-to-be baptized people have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them. Others do not. But for all of the people that do have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, they can know this and also know that they belong to God. For those who don’t have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, they can know this, too, if they care to consider the possibility. If that’s their situation, they don’t belong to Christ. Even if they keep the sacraments- which actually can and does happen.
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PRmerger
Guest
What you are proposing is a nebulous “he has the Holy Spirit in him” concept, with no reliable landmark.
Yet you are claiming that Baptism is not a “reliable landmark”. How do you know this?
What verse in Scripture tells you about this “reliable landmark”?
I apologize for not really understanding. Your argument is that baptism is not reliable, but “something else” is.
I want to know what that “something else” is. It has to be “reliable”, and not nebulous and vague, right?
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cooterhein
Guest
The Holy Spirit is not nebulous; He’s a person. He doesn’t have a body, but He is a person.
Every person indwelt by the Spirit belongs to Christ.
Every person who does not have the Holy Spirit within them does not belong to Christ.
Not every person who’s been baptized is (or ever was) indwelt by the Holy Spirit and transformed by Him into a Christian.
Some peope who haven’t been baptized are, nonetheless, indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Seriously? I posted it once and only talked about it a little, you asked me what verses are applicable, I posted the same thing with the appropriate verses bolded for emphasis, I talked about it more in-depth the second time, and now you’re asking me to post the verses again and talk about it some more.
Could you please refer back to my previous post and interact with the verses I bolded and the things I talked about? That was the reason I put it there. I expected some interaction.
God is pretty reliable.
It’s not really “something else;” I’m referring to “someone.” A person called the Holy Spirit. I understand that He doesn’t have a body and He’s not corporeal, but I don’t think that necessarily means He’s nebulous and vague.
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PRmerger
Guest
Not to mention, cooterhein, you also proposed that there would be a “distinguishing characteristic.”
What would that be?
It would seem that a “distinguishing characteristic” would be, well, rather distinguishing. That is, obvious.
Does Scripture state what this “obvious” mark of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is?
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed.
Did I say the Holy Spirit was nebulous?
Amen!
:sad_yes:
Scripture verse for this please? Something with the word “baptized” and “not indwelt by the Holy Spirit” would be good.
Ok.
Yup. You have avoided it. You’ve not provided a single verse that says “reliable” or “landmark”.
Of course!
To be sure.
Your comments above are all essentially Catholic (with the exception of the very non-Biblical bolded comment)
However, they’re all nonsequitors.
I think you understand through this discourse that you were proposing a very man-made, non-Scriptural tradition here:
No verses in Scripture describe a “distinguishing characteristic” nor a “reliable landmark”.
Those are man-made terms and non-Scriptural concepts.
I’m just sayin’.
Most everything else you said above is very Catholic, though!
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cooterhein
Guest
A distinguishing characteristic of a Christian is the presence of the Holy Spirit within him/her. A distinguishing characteristic of one who does not belong to Christ is the absence of the Holy Spirit.
I don’t think the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit can be truly obvious in another person unless you witness the evidence of His work in their life over a long period of time and you know them very well. However, the purpose of this distinguishing characteristic is not geared as much toward judging others (although I hope you have met some people in whom the Holy Spirit is quite evident- if so, you know it’s a huge blessing). Its aim is more toward self-assessment, and this seems to be consistent with the larger Biblical context as it relates to judging others.
The Holy Spirit is the mark. And while His presence is within you and therefore not obvious to the casual observer who barely knows you, it should at least be obvious to you. We are talking about a difference between having God within you (not just sitting there- doing things, too!) and not having God within you at all. The difference between these two states-of-being should be obvious to the person who is examining herself, even if it’s not incredibly obvious to another person who barely knows her, if at all.
It seemed (to me) that it was implied by the flow of conversation that went straight from me talking about the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit to you talking about things that are nebulous and vague. I apologize if I misunderstood you (which it seems that I did).
I believe there’s about six places in Acts that talk about the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit- some also talk about baptism. None of them happen in ways that are identical. While some of them could be construed as baptismal regeneration, it’s quite impossible for some of the others.
Acts 2:1-4
Acts 8:14-17
Acts 9:17-18
Acts 10:44-48
Acts 19:1-6
Acts 2:38-39
I think the only other possible addition to this list is John’s baptism of Jesus, but that’s not really the exact same thing and I thought it would be mildly heretical to be uncritically inclusive of it. There’s one more thing, too- it’s not a reference to Scripture, but to my own life. More than six years transpired between my baptism and the time at which the Holy Spirit initially indwelt me. So…yeah. That’s what happened.
I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you were asking for verses that contained specific words or phrases. I’ll get right on that, as soon as you show me where “Trinity” and “homoousios” appear in the Bible.
Together, we can set Christian apologetics back by 17 centuries! Yes, we can!
I have to take credit for “reliable landmark,” but “distinguishing characteristic” isn’t mine. Traillius was asking how I distinguish between “in the flesh” and “in the Spirit,” and he said he considers baptism to be a distinguishing characteristic. (Post number 7). I didn’t take issue with the words he used because I didn’t feel like imitating Arius at the time.
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pipper
Guest
Whatever you do just please be careful, the ICOC is widely thought to be a controling cult.Ah yes, good point. Public confession would come before Baptism, I agree. I’m currently a member of the ICOC, so yeah, that’s basically where I’m at. I had considered considering reverting
They usually get people in college when they are vulnerable (sp).BTW the campbellite and Catholic doctrine on baptism is very close, except for the age and the amount of water used.
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cooterhein
Guest
If the CC was widely thought to be a controlling cult and you were considering membership in it, would that matter to you?Whatever you do just please be careful, the ICOC is widely thought to be a controling cult.
Juuust a hypothetical, not saying that might actually happen to someone. I mean, who would say something like that?
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PRmerger
Guest
This is circular reasoning, cooter. “I know someone has the distinguishing characteristic because I know he has the Holy Spirit.” and “I know he has the HS because he has the distinguishing characteristic.”
Incidentally, your definition above would not rule out Baptism as the point of indwelling of the Holy Spirit. For how would you know that it’s not there?
Scripture verse for this please?
Are you saying one can’t have the Holy Spirit’s presence without it being truly obvious?
This is again a non-Scriptural tradition.
See above. No Scripture verses ever claim this.
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
I not sure that true Christian is the best word to use, since I believe that while there is a faith that has the fullness of truth, all forms of rational Christianity have degrees of that fullness, and I think they deserve to be called Christians. I say “rational Christianity” only to differentiate Christianity from crazy cults that certainly use elements of Christianity; but they are not Christian in my view.
Bottom Line, a Christian is a person who conforms to the revelation of Jesus Christ.
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PRmerger
Guest
And ***none of the verses ***claim your man-made proposition: “Not every person who’s been baptized is (or ever was) indwelt by the Holy Spirit and transformed by Him into a Christian.”
This is another unsupported, non-Scriptural doctrine you’re proclaiming.
And don’t forget purgatory, the Assumption, the Immaculate Conception and the papacy as well!
At any rate, I’m glad to know that you wouldn’t disagree with those concepts because they’re “not in the bible.”
Of course baptism is the distinguishing characteristic for the indwelling of the HS. You said it wasn’t.I have to take credit for “reliable landmark,” but “distinguishing characteristic” isn’t mine. Traillius was asking how I distinguish between “in the flesh” and “in the Spirit,” and he said he considers baptism to be a distinguishing characteristic. (Post number 7). I didn’t take issue with the words he used because I didn’t feel like imitating Arius at the time.
I simply asked how you know then, if it’s not at baptism. And what Scripture verses tell you this.
Clearly, your own criteria are nebulous, man-made and arbitrary. But they certainly are not found in Scripture. :nope:- Status