Non-Catholics saved?

[safa92]

I’ve been very confused by this recently.

Staples doesn’t really seem to answer the question. Bishop Barron has given a similar response in interviews when asking about salvation. They seem like such wishy-washy answers. I’m aware that invincible ignorance is a thing and I know that God is the only judge, but where are the lines and why does it matter? I would like some clarification on these examples.

A Jew or Muslim raised in the faith and is very aware of the Christian view. Can they be faulted?

A protestant who has a fantastic relationship with Jesus. Whats the point of trying to convert them if they can still be saved?

A lapsed Catholic. Could it be argued that they actually never heard the gospel since they left the church simply because they don’t get it?

 

[StudentMI]

“God has bound himself to the sacraments. But God is not himself bound by the sacraments.”

That’s from the Catechism. Not a direct quote but from memory.

 

[adamhovey1988]

A Jew or Muslim raised in the faith and is very aware of the Christian view. Can they be faulted?

Not really. Some Muslims (not all) seem to think Christians worship three different gods.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

A Jew or Muslim raised in the faith and is very aware of the Christian view. Can they be faulted?

A protestant who has a fantastic relationship with Jesus. Whats the point of trying to convert them if they can still be saved?

A lapsed Catholic. Could it be argued that they actually never heard the gospel since they left the church simply because they don’t get it?

Short answer: we don’t know. God will judge them individually. We know that Catholicism provides the best route to union with God. We can’t say it’s impossible for someone to get there via some other means.

 

[PennyinCanada]

Jesus spoke about blessed are you for when I was hungry you gave me to eat, when I was naked you clothed me, when I was in prison you visited me. When you did it to these, you did it to me. In a sense, he’s describing the narrow gate, isn’t he? Jesus is still the reason that any of us are able to be blessed and have heaven available to us, whether it’s a Muslim or unbeliever or a Catholic.

The sacraments were given to us and provide the best way to be connected to God in this life. You have to think that a protestant who has a fantastic relationship with God would be very happy and grateful to have the veil of unbelief in the Eucharist removed. To know for sure that when confessing sins to a priest that he is washed in the blood of the Lamb and his soul is redeemed when the priest says ‘your sins are forgiven go in peace’. We wish everyone to have the fullness of faith! So yes, why wouldn’t we want them to have more? It’s not really how you worded it, Whats the point of trying to convert them if they can still be saved? Love and the fullness of Love in this life is why. And that person will have a testimony to their family and friends and coworkers about Christ that you and I do not have access to.

 

[Gorgias]

I’m aware that invincible ignorance is a thing and I know that God is the only judge, but where are the lines and why does it matter?

And that’s precisely why we cannot set ‘lines’ – this is a matter for God’s judgment. We can’t influence His decision. Yet, we can talk about the fact that there is a judgment He makes. We can offer broad strokes… but we can’t say “this guy gets in, and that guy doesn’t.”

A Jew or Muslim raised in the faith and is very aware of the Christian view. Can they be faulted?

You’re asking a different question than can be answered, I think, since you’re asking about a “Christian view” and not “Catholic faith.”

But, let’s pretend that you wrote “he is very aware of Catholic doctrine.” That becomes a question we can answer. Awareness is not the standard. Assent that Catholic doctrine is true is the standard. At that point, it becomes a question of whether, knowing it to be true, he enters the Catholic Church (or refuses to do so). Given that he hasn’t been exposed to Catholic doctrine, and hasn’t rejected it, then we can’t say “that’s clearly not invincible ignorance.”

But, let’s take it a step further: if we’re only talking about “Christian” faith, in general, and if we’re only saying “he knows what is taught”, then there’s room to give an answer… although a bit more “wishy-washy” than you might like:

• if he refuses to accept the “Christian views” that conflict with Catholic doctrine, then that doesn’t seem to be problematic. After all, would you say that God will condemn a person for not believing things that the Catholic Church, itself, says “that isn’t true!”…?
• if he refuses to accept the “Christian views” that the Catholic Church also believes, then we’ve got a more interesting question. Will God save a person who is a member of a non-Catholic Christian community? We’d say “yes!” On the other hand, would God condemn a person who looks at that community’s beliefs and says “that doesn’t sound completely right”? That’s a difficult one to affirm.

A protestant who has a fantastic relationship with Jesus. Whats the point of trying to convert them if they can still be saved?

The point is that they can be saved, but it’s not ‘guaranteed’ in the way we can say, with confidence, that a Catholic who follows the beliefs and practice of the Church will be!

It’s kind of like saying, “hey – you will be spared from COVID-19 if you self-isolate and follow CDC guidelines, and you could be spared if you follow some but not all of them.” The question, then, becomes “what’s the point of self-isolating and following the CDC?” and the answer is “it’s the difference between ‘yes’ and ‘maybe’!!!”

safa92:

A lapsed Catholic. Could it be argued that they actually never heard the gospel since they left the church simply because they don’t get it?

IMHO, I think that’s a reasonable argument. What they rejected wasn’t, properly speaking, “what the Church teaches.”

 

[TheLittleLady]

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

I would advise beginning at paragraph 836.

 

[safa92]

Thank you for the wonderful answer!

When I read John 6:53, it seems clear to me that Jesus is giving a very stern answer. The only way to get “his flesh” is though the Catholic church (I suppose this logic would apply to any of the 3 situations I presented). Why say that if it doesn’t matter? This would be so much easier if it wasn’t for this concept. It would be one thing Jesus said "this is something that I’m giving you so I can with you in a special way. ". And if you don’t want to be close to Jesus on that level, that’s OK. You don’t need the eucharist.

IMHO, I think that’s a reasonable argument. What they rejected wasn’t, properly speaking, “what the Church teaches

Personally, I’ve come to realize the Catholic church has the truth. Even if I don’t agree with something, it doesn’t matter. Truth is truth. Like Peter says, “Where else can I go?”. With that being said, someone who falls away from the church couldn’t have known the gravity of their decision. There had to have been some sort of disconnect when it was being taught to them.

 

[Genesis315]

Non-Christians cannot be saved, unless they come to faith in Christ before death, and persevere to the end in faith and charity. Non-Catholic Christians may be saved if they are not culpable for being manifestly separated from the Catholic Church and persevere in faith and charity to the end (like anyone else).

That faith which is absolutely necessary for salvation, “is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed.” (CCC 150).

In particular, this means faith in Christ, since Christ “is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one” (CCC 65); “what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son” (CCC 65, quoting St. John of the Cross).

For this reason, faith in Christ is absolutely necessary:

CCC

The Necessity of Faith

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43

Even if in good conscience, people in non-Christian religions cannot have faith–they simply do not believe what God has revealed. Their belief is merely “religious experience still in search of the absolute truth and still lacking assent to God who reveals himself” and therefore “the distinction between theological faith and belief in the other religions, must be firmly held.” (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Dominus Iesus 7).

There can be no invincible ignorance in this regard. As the First Vatican Council taught, the Holy Spirit “gives to all facility in accepting and believing the truth.” (Dei Filius, ch. 3, par. 6).

However, we do acknowledge that, for those in good conscience seeking to follow the truth, “in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him.” (CCC 848). This may even happen only at the “eleventh hour” (cf. Matt. 20:6).

When it comes to non-Catholic Christians, innocent ignorance excuses from explicit belief in the specific articles of faith, since their acceptance is implied in faith in Christ, the one Word. However, for the same reason, culpable heresy destroys all faith, since by not believing all God has revealed, one has substituted one’s own or another’s authority for God’s.

 

[Genesis315]

First, you are forgetting the role of grace which aids in our coming to the truth.

Second, many people on these boards have changed their mind about religion in significant ways and made a choice to assent to the truth they found. All human beings adjust their beliefs about all sorts of things during their lives based using their intellect and will. It has only been in recent centuries that religious belief has been treated more akin to skin color than a choice–ie something that we just can’t control.

 

[TMC]

Non-Christians cannot be saved, unless they come to faith in Christ before death, and persevere to the end in faith and charity.

This is not what the Church teaches. This is what the Church teaches:

[1260] "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

That is CCC 1260.

 

[StudentMI]

Just that non Catholics can be saved through other means than the sacraments.

 

[TMC]

Let’s see what the popes say about it . . . . .

Why not just read the Catechism and see what the Church teaches, instead of cherry picking quotes? The relevant Church teaching has already been provided.

 

[TMC]

Church teaching cannot change. If the current teaching is different, that makes me very suspicious.

I didn’t say anything one way or the other about Church teaching changing. I would think we could agree that the Church has teaching authority and also that Church teaching is found in the Catechism. I have provided the relevant passage from the Catechism above. Its paragraph 1260.

I think its fine to discuss one’s own beliefs, and whether they differ from the Church’s teaching, but we should always be careful to present the Church’s actual teaching accurately.

 

[Major]

Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church (…)

I have the feeling that area for which claim to ignorance can be used is usually blown up to some riddiculous size.
Sure, in precolumbian America where, apart from direct miracle, noone can really got to know the Church, it may be safely applicable. But nowadays in most parts of the world you really cannot live without coming into some kind of contact with the Church, either you will randomly pick up some book, or see some post on facebook or pass by church and hear singing. Whatever it is, everyone will have something from which Holy Spirit can start building our interest in faith and eventually faith itself. It is not good saying that it wasn’t presented to us in proper way, usually it is us who do not want to learn it in the proper way as we are afraid of Living God approaching us.

But really, I think, if we have some particular person in mind it is not good discussing whether it can be saved or not despite being pagan/atheist/heretic etc. The real question is , whether we were chosen to be help for her or him in the way to Christ and we are just failing him by overthinking this instead of acting.

 

[rossum]

Non-Christians cannot be saved, unless they come to faith in Christ before death, and persevere to the end in faith and charity.

Erm… So Abraham, Moses and David were not saved? I suspect that you need to rethink your position here.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Suspicious of whom or what: the more modern Popes, the Cardinals and Bishops, or the CCC?

 

[meltzerboy2]

That one is easy. They lived BEFORE Jesus, so they are not judged in the same way. But people such as you and I on the other hand…

 

[rossum]

There was no Christianity back then.

No, there wasn’t. So according to the OP nobody back then could have been saved. Likewise no Native Americans or Native Australians could have been saved before the arrival of Christian missionaries in their lands.

Is God’s saving power limited by the speed at which a sailing boat can travel the world? Doesn’t sound very omnipotent to me.

 

[Genesis315]

This is not what the Church teaches. This is what the Church teaches:

[1260] "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

That doesn’t conflict with any of the other equally relevant and authoritative sources I provided. In fact, what I posted simply expound on what you did and provide more detail. The statement in the paragraph you cite–“Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.”–doesn’t provide the “how” that person ends up being saved. The paragraphs I cited explain how:

How is such a person who seeks the truth saved? The answer is: “in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him.” (CCC 848).

What is faith, without which it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God? The Church defines such faith as “a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed.” (CCC 150). What is the fullness of God’s revelation, that we must assent to? Christ. He “is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one” (CCC 65); “what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son” (CCC 65, quoting St. John of the Cross).

Again, faith in Christ is absolutely necessary–without it, no one has EVER attained to justification.

CCC

The Necessity of Faith

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43

Those seeking the truth with an upright conscience, will be led by God to faith in Christ. Pope Francis put it this way in his first encyclical:

Lumen Fidei

Because faith is a way, it also has to do with the lives of those men and women who, though not believers, nonetheless desire to believe and continue to seek. To the extent that they are sincerely open to love and set out with whatever light they can find, they are already, even without knowing it, on the path leading to faith.