It is also deceptive to, as the poster said, paint with a broad brush.
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TC3033
Guest
If that were the case (which it’s probably one reason), why would/should that matter?
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Wannano
Guest
Looking back over this discussion I can see I did not ask the right question. What I should have asked is this: The couple from Philadelphia are told they cannot commune because they are in a state of mortal sin. They take a vacation to Argentina and go to Mass. There they are told, “yes” you can receive the Eucharist. I had previously understood that no matter where you go in the world the practice of the CC is uniform. If taking the Eucharist in Philadelphia would have been participating in an unworthy manner, is receiving the Eucharist in Argentina a valid receiving of the body of Christ?Tis_Bearself:
So if people in the current position from Philadelphia who are told “no” travel to Argentina and commune there are they doing the right thing?Wannano:
I don’t see it as that simple.
An Archbishop makes decisions based on the needs of, and for the good of, his diocese. If he were doing something truly “wrong” then one expects the Vatican to correct him. If the Vatican does not correct him, then I would presume it’s because they think he is within his discretion in making a certain decision based on his interpretation of the situations affecting his particular flock.
The needs of a flock in Country A might be very different from the needs of a flock in Country B, at least in the short term. Over time, perhaps it will become more clear that one way is “wrong” and then one would expect the Holy See to act, but perhaps it is not clear just yet.
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stpurl
Guest
All Catholics? All the time?
It’s been said that Episcopalians look down at Baptists, Methodists think Unitarians are fringe, and the ‘established’ groups all look down on Evangelicals. . .and that many in all the above and more look down on Catholics as brainwashed ignorant fools who aren’t even Christian.
But you know, ‘it’s been said’ is a poor reason to keep on saying it.
I personally know Christians and non-Christians who are respectful, sincere, and welcoming of all other faiths. So I don’t go around generalizing about Protestants or Jews or atheists just because people on message boards like to trot out old charges about how ‘some nasty group’ historically has talked trash or ‘appeared contemptuous’ of other people. What possible good does it do? It maligns the group charged with nastiness, it makes the charger feel ‘superior’, and it sure as heck doesn’t please God who happened to make ALL these people and loves them all equally.
It’s been said that Episcopalians look down at Baptists, Methodists think Unitarians are fringe, and the ‘established’ groups all look down on Evangelicals. . .and that many in all the above and more look down on Catholics as brainwashed ignorant fools who aren’t even Christian.
But you know, ‘it’s been said’ is a poor reason to keep on saying it.
I personally know Christians and non-Christians who are respectful, sincere, and welcoming of all other faiths. So I don’t go around generalizing about Protestants or Jews or atheists just because people on message boards like to trot out old charges about how ‘some nasty group’ historically has talked trash or ‘appeared contemptuous’ of other people. What possible good does it do? It maligns the group charged with nastiness, it makes the charger feel ‘superior’, and it sure as heck doesn’t please God who happened to make ALL these people and loves them all equally.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
You generally follow the rules of the diocese you are physically in. If they had communion in Philly but the priest in Argentina refused, then they can’t make him give it to them. And vice versa.
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Wannano
Guest
So it fair to say that something may or may not be a sin depending on which diocese you find yourself in?
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Maximilian75
Guest
In some indivicual and nuanced situations, yes
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MichaelP3
Guest
This just doesn’t make any sense!
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Wannano
Guest
I think Tis bear missed my question. Q. If receiving the Eucharist in Philadelphia would have been partaking in an unworthy manner, is receiving it in Argentina a valid receiving of the Lord’s Body and Blood?
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TheLegend
Guest
It is a hard question to answer because one does not know the heart of the person who is receiving. Personally i think it would be sinful to receive elsewhere when you know you are ineligible at home, if you do indeed know you are not eligible
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Wannano
Guest
I agree with you if the person is just going to another location where he is unknown and presents himself as eligible. The quandary here in this scenario is that the Church says he is ineligible at home but eligible on vacation in Argentina.Wannano:
It is a hard question to answer because one does not know the heart of the person who is receiving. Personally i think it would be sinful to receive elsewhere when you know you are ineligible at home, if you do indeed know you are not eligible
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TheLegend
Guest
Sorry i thought i had a clue for a second.
I honestly do not know what the answer would be. How ever i think those that are in error would not be guilty of sin due to being misinformed.
Until this matter is settled by the Pope definitively in my opinion i just do not know how it can be taught this way.
I honestly do not know what the answer would be. How ever i think those that are in error would not be guilty of sin due to being misinformed.
Until this matter is settled by the Pope definitively in my opinion i just do not know how it can be taught this way.
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Wannano
Guest
In my opinion it is serious as well.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
This is the crux of the problem. Inconsistency about whether something is or isn’t a sin.
Not whether someone gets Communion, because in reality all they need to do is go to some church where the priest doesn’t know them from Adam and act like they know what they are doing and go along with the Communion norms and they will be given Communion. The issue is whether they should be told this is sinful in every case of divorce and remarriage without annulment (or other similar odd situation), or whether they should be told to follow their individual consciences.
Many people follow their individual consciences anyway and may not even have any idea that this dispute is going on. Or may not care because they arrived on their own at what they personally are going to do, and will have to answer to God for that.
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Wannano
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I thank you for giving what is one of the most honest and transparent answers I have ever received here on Caf. Ultimately we will all answer to God.Wannano:
This is the crux of the problem. Inconsistency about whether something is or isn’t a sin.
Not whether someone gets Communion, because in reality all they need to do is go to some church where the priest doesn’t know them from Adam and act like they know what they are doing and go along with the Communion norms and they will be given Communion. The issue is whether they should be told this is sinful in every case of divorce and remarriage without annulment (or other similar odd situation), or whether they should be told to follow their individual consciences.
Many people follow their individual consciences anyway and may not even have any idea that this dispute is going on. Or may not care because they arrived on their own at what they personally are going to do, and will have to answer to God for that.
I have one more question
. What I have learned is that the Catholic faith is the only one who has a valid Eucharist because of the Apostolic Succession. The priests therefore are the only ones who can confect the wafer and wine into the actual body of Christ. When the recipient receives the confected host he is eating the flesh of Christ which gives forgiveness of sins and special graces. It is the most central and important aspect of Catholic worship.Consider again the scenario in your answer where someone may falsely present themselves as eligible in another location, or may be told to follow their own conscience or may just do what they personally have decided to do…when the Host, which is now the actual body of Christ, is consumed by them, do they still receive forgiveness of their sins and receive the special graces even though they may have deceitfully presented themselves to Communion? Or are they only fooling themselves and everybody else and what they received is really only a wafer?
Tis_Bearself
Patron
It’s never “only a wafer”. It is always the body of Christ. If one receives Christ unworthily, then it’s still Christ, it doesn’t turn back into a wafer because you are out of a state of grace.
The interplay between Jesus Christ, including in the form of the Host, and an individual person who may or may not be committing a sin and may be receiving Communion, is not something we can say for sure about. Who knows if that person receives some of God’s grace or not? I would think a lot depends on their intention, and whether they have seriously discussed their situation with God or even just asked for his help in a bad situation, and are receiving out of true love for Jesus in the Eucharist or a desire for closeness with God…as opposed to just marching up to Communion out of habit, or because they think it’s no big deal, or because they don’t want to be the only one left sitting in the pew. Intention cannot somehow make an unworthy Communion into “not a sin”, but I think it could mitigate the sin.
I made a number of unworthy Communions while I was spending some years missing many Sunday Masses, not doing the required once-a-year Confessions, and also committing other serious sins that I won’t go into except to say they did not involve divorce and remarriage, or gay anything. I remember wondering if I should go to Communion when I’d go to church during that time, and deciding to go because I felt like I needed/ wanted Jesus’ grace and help. I did eventually come back to the Church and confess all this stuff, including the unworthy Communions, and stopped doing it. I try very hard now to be worthy of Communion. So maybe Jesus helped me even during all those bad years when I was going to Communion from time to time, in sin. Who knows. I don’t feel that He ever refuses a sincere request for help.
I am not advocating sinning, obviously, but my point is that people, including me, who did not plan in their lives to go out and commit bad sins sometimes find themselves in sinful situations they did not anticipate (and yes, I know sin comes from one’s own choices etc, but choices can be very confusing sometimes) and are floundering around with their relationship with God as well as in other areas of their life. Maybe this is what Pope Francis was trying to get at. I don’t know.
The interplay between Jesus Christ, including in the form of the Host, and an individual person who may or may not be committing a sin and may be receiving Communion, is not something we can say for sure about. Who knows if that person receives some of God’s grace or not? I would think a lot depends on their intention, and whether they have seriously discussed their situation with God or even just asked for his help in a bad situation, and are receiving out of true love for Jesus in the Eucharist or a desire for closeness with God…as opposed to just marching up to Communion out of habit, or because they think it’s no big deal, or because they don’t want to be the only one left sitting in the pew. Intention cannot somehow make an unworthy Communion into “not a sin”, but I think it could mitigate the sin.
I made a number of unworthy Communions while I was spending some years missing many Sunday Masses, not doing the required once-a-year Confessions, and also committing other serious sins that I won’t go into except to say they did not involve divorce and remarriage, or gay anything. I remember wondering if I should go to Communion when I’d go to church during that time, and deciding to go because I felt like I needed/ wanted Jesus’ grace and help. I did eventually come back to the Church and confess all this stuff, including the unworthy Communions, and stopped doing it. I try very hard now to be worthy of Communion. So maybe Jesus helped me even during all those bad years when I was going to Communion from time to time, in sin. Who knows. I don’t feel that He ever refuses a sincere request for help.
I am not advocating sinning, obviously, but my point is that people, including me, who did not plan in their lives to go out and commit bad sins sometimes find themselves in sinful situations they did not anticipate (and yes, I know sin comes from one’s own choices etc, but choices can be very confusing sometimes) and are floundering around with their relationship with God as well as in other areas of their life. Maybe this is what Pope Francis was trying to get at. I don’t know.
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Wannano
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Ok, I understand. Thanks.
In regards to Pope Francis, time will tell. I don’t know either!
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Wannano
Guest
I reread immediately after posting you and I want to agree with something you wrote that I beleive is the truth: “He never refuses a sincere request for help.”
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dann
Guest
But the catholic religion has been Miss-quoting saint Paul’s rebuke of 1 cor.11 .for ever!!
Yes the pot.luck meal.
That 1cor 11. Described
Was also a communion service.
It was intended as a rebuke.
Saint Paul was always correcting the Corinthian fellowship.
Yes the pot.luck meal.
That 1cor 11. Described
Was also a communion service.
It was intended as a rebuke.
Saint Paul was always correcting the Corinthian fellowship.
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Wannano
Guest
I have some questions about that passage but why don’t you give us more information on what you are suggesting.
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