Non-Catholics: What do you think of Catholic morality?

[Padres1969]

I know that it would be nebulous to say “Catholic morality,” even though Christianity can agree on most morals up until this century or the last where people start “accepting” gay marriage, abortion, whatever the matter may be that the Bible rejects.

By this, I mean the moral stances that Catholicism takes on any particular issues, including (if you’d like, as it is related) the mortal vs. venial sin distinction.

Personally, being a more “conservative” Protestant (as opposed to, what, allowing everything as right?), I take no issue with Catholic morality because it’s practically mine, though I say it doesn’t go far enough on some issues. It is perfectly in line with Scripture and common sense.

What do other non-Catholics think, appreciate, take issue with…?

To answer generally I agree with some of it. However I disagree with some of the RCC’s interpretations and stances on moral issues, or what they see as moral issues. And I don’t particularly accept the concept of moral and venial sin. I agree that there is undoubtedly a spectrum of sins out there (ie: Murder for example is clearly worse than many other things we label sin) but I don’t think the neat classification of things as mortal or venial is accurate. Sin is a messy business that defies simple 2 step classification.

 

[Tomdstone]

To answer generally I agree with some of it. However I disagree with some of the RCC’s interpretations and stances on moral issues, or what they see as moral issues. And I don’t particularly accept the concept of moral and venial sin. I agree that there is undoubtedly a spectrum of sins out there (ie: Murder for example is clearly worse than many other things we label sin) but I don’t think the neat classification of things as mortal or venial is accurate. Sin is a messy business that defies simple 2 step classification.

Yes, it is sometimes a problem to distinguish a venial sin from a mortal sin. Take for example, the sin of theft.
Suppose you stole a small piece of candy worth ten cents from a store. My understanding is that you would not go to hell for that and it would not be a mortal sin. Suppose that you stole ten million dollars from an account. It is my understanding that would be a mortal sin. Well, where is the cutoff between a venial and a mortal sin in dollar amount when someone steals from a company account. Five cents would be a venial sin, but ten million dollars would be a mortal sin. Let’s say that there was a cutoff of 100 dollars. So if you stole 100 dollars or more, it would be a mortal sin, and anything less would be a venial sin.
Well suppose that one person steals $99.99. and the second steals $100 from the same company. Would it be right to send the second person to hell, but not the first since the difference in the theft is only one cent, which is extremely miniscule?
You can disagree with the numerical value of the cutoff but the argument would hold mutatis mutandis regardless of what dollar amount you gave for the cutoff.

 

[Darryl_B]

Yes, it is sometimes a problem to distinguish a venial sin from a mortal sin. Take for example, the sin of theft.
Suppose you stole a small piece of candy worth ten cents from a store. My understanding is that you would not go to hell for that and it would not be a mortal sin. Suppose that you stole ten million dollars from an account. It is my understanding that would be a mortal sin. Well, where is the cutoff between a venial and a mortal sin in dollar amount when someone steals from a company account. Five cents would be a venial sin, but ten million dollars would be a mortal sin. Let’s say that there was a cutoff of 100 dollars. So if you stole 100 dollars or more, it would be a mortal sin, and anything less would be a venial sin.
Well suppose that one person steals $99.99. and the second steals $100 from the same company. Would it be right to send the second person to hell, but not the first since the difference in the theft is only one cent, which is extremely miniscule?
You can disagree with the numerical value of the cutoff but the argument would hold mutatis mutandis regardless of what dollar amount you gave for the cutoff.

The quantification of sin rather than the qualification of sin is often going to pose this common problem. What do you say? Quantification or qualification? Can I get away with x while I dont do y.

 

[Dorothy]

God is the judge. We need to use everything our Savior Jesus Christ gave to us. Are we praying for discernment…wisdom…love…prudence, and much more?

 

[Jake_Parker]

The quantification of sin rather than the qualification of sin is often going to pose this common problem. What do you say? Quantification or qualification? Can I get away with x while I dont do y.

This is such a tedious and distracting way of living that focuses too much on how ones actions are characterized. That is why I think it is unnecessary to focus on what “type” of sin one is committing, and rather focus on avoiding sin in general, and on doing good.

Go to confession, confess all sins. Don’t worry about which sins are one type or another. Focus that time and energy on how you’re going to avoid sinning in the future and how you can do things that are going to please God.

 

[Reuben_J]

The fact is there is such thing as small (venial) sin which if committed will not prevent one from going to heaven; and big (mortal) sin, if committed will bring one to hell, regardless of whether we don’t believe this or not. (Mathew 5:19, 22)

The Church, that has the power to loose and to bind by virtue of privilege given to the apostles, would be wise enough to handle and to know this.

 

[Jake_Parker]

The fact is there is such thing as small (venial) sin which if committed will not prevent one from going to heaven; and big (mortal) sin, if committed will bring one to hell, regardless of whether we don’t believe this or not. (Mathew 5:19, 22)

The Church, that has the power to loose and to bind by virtue of privilege given to the apostles, would be wise enough to handle and to know this.

I don’t think disagreeing with that interpretation of scripture makes them wrong.

For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. For he who said “Do not commit adultery,” said also, “Do not kill.” If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. [James 2: 10-11]

Concerning Confession, having a list of deadly sins could, in fact, become an obstacle to genuine repentance. For example, imagine that you commit a sin. You look on the list and do not find it listed. It would be very easy to take the attitude that, since it is not on a list of deadly sins, it is not too serious. Hence, you do not feel the need to seek God’s forgiveness right away. A week passes and you have completely forgotten about what you had done. You never sought God’s forgiveness; as a result, you did not receive it, either. We should go to Confession when we sin—at the very least, we should ask God to forgive us daily in our personal prayers. We should not see Confession as a time to confess only those sins which may be found on a list. -Orthodox Church of America

Sin that is not repented of, surely would lead one to Hell. I don’t think there is a definitive list in the way the Catholic Church understands it (Category Hellfire & Category Not-so-bad).

 

[Peter_J]

I really mean no offence by this but I think you were a bit to quick here.

That cuts both ways: Catholic posters can be too quick to make statements about the Orthodox, and Protestant posters can be too quick to make statements about the Orthodox.

I don’t claim to be an expert either, but when I want to discuss the Orthodox I usually make a point of going to an Orthodox website, not an RC website. (PM me if you want a link to it.)

 

[Peter_J]

To answer generally I agree with some of it. However I disagree with some of the RCC’s interpretations and stances on moral issues, or what they see as moral issues. And I don’t particularly accept the concept of moral and venial sin. I agree that there is undoubtedly a spectrum of sins out there (ie: Murder for example is clearly worse than many other things we label sin) but I don’t think the neat classification of things as mortal or venial is accurate. Sin is a messy business that defies simple 2 step classification.

I believe I can understand your objection. However, I want to point out that a lot of people – Catholic and “non-Catholic” alike, but especially on the Internet – treat the RCC’s teaching on this as far less “messy” than it actually is, because they ignore the distinction between “mortal sin” and “grave matter”.

 

[Eliazer]

I have read through with interest these two submissions. Could you explain in plain English what is being said in #59 of the first one? Thanks.

There is where Humanae Vitae applies it is explaining the NFP, Concept ( third link below)

Side Note I forgot to add 1 Important document that should be read before the other 2 links:
w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_10021880_arcanum.html

Arcanum( the website listed above) is one of the most, like all encyclicals are, but for marriage normally the hirarchy of the church uses then is followed by
w2.vatican.va/content/pius-x…-connubii.html
which then is followed by
w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi…nae-vitae.html

There are many more documents that are published by Holy Mother Church regarding matrimony and reponsibilities but these three are the beggining of it. once people read these three articles I think they can understand most of or moral concept when it comes to marriage moral view.

 

[LutheranScholar]

The Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental) also have Confession. And given that Catholics are 50% of world Christians and the Orthodox are another 15%, that gives a solid majority of world Christians believing in the importance of Confession!

** Tentatively raises hand** Uh, excuse me, but we Confessional Lutherans believe in the power of the Keys and the importance of Absolution, too, so you might want to add us to the Catholic and Orthodox paradigm, at least as far as Confession and Absolution goes…
Something from a PDF on the LCMS site:

Is confession and absolution a Sacrament?
Although Holy Absolution has no visible element, it defi-
nitely does have Christ’s institution.The Lutheran Confessions
refer to Holy Absolution as a Sacrament (LC IV.74;Ap.XIII.4).
The Lutheran Confessions also wisely point out that “No intelligent
person will quibble about the number of sacraments or
the terminology, so long as those things are kept which have
God’s command and promises”(AP XIII.17).
Luther speaks often about Holy Absolution,connecting it
with the oral proclamation of the Gospel and with the ongoing
living out of Holy Baptism. While it is customary in
Lutheranism to speak of two Sacraments—Baptism and Holy
Communion—we do well to keep in mind this important
truth:“God is surpassingly rich in his grace: First,through the
spoken word,by which the forgiveness of sin is preached to the
whole world; second,through Baptism; third,through the holy
Sacrament of the Altar; fourth,through the power of the keys;
and finally,through the mutual conversation and consolation
of the brethren”(SA III.4.1).
What is private absolution and what is its benefit?
Our Lutheran Confessions say,“It is taught among us that
private absolution should be retained in the churches and not be
allowed to fall into disuse”(AC XI).The founding father of the
Missouri Synod,C.F.W.Walther,said that a pastor,in an evangelical
way,through careful instruction and encouragement,
and through praising private confession and absolution,should
work toward the goal where private confession and absolution is
used in addition to general confession and absolution.2
Private confession and absolution is a very important tool
in the practice of pastoral care. Pastors use confession and
absolution in a variety of situations—for example,in the midst
of marital and family difficulties, and in other such pastoral
counseling situations. Private confession and absolution is
used by pastors to bring forgiveness and healing into the lives
of those who come to them with troubled and anxious hearts.
Our church’s hymnal,Lutheran Worship,contains a suggested
order for private confession and absolution (pgs.
110–111).This order may be used in the context of a visit with
your pastor. The order of private confession and absolution
suggests that specific sins be confessed,but certainly does not
require it.Another important point is that pastors are sworn at
their ordinations never to reveal the sins confessed to them.As
one Lutheran pastor put it,“The pastor’s ear is a tomb.What
goes in,never comes out.”
Conclusion
Rejoicing in the forgiveness of sins,we pray that God gives
us the strength to resist temptation,and to live lives that glorify
Him,seeking to please Him by what we do,in accordance with
His holy and perfect will.And as we do,we always are aware of
our sin and so we flee for refuge to His boundless mercy,seeking
and imploring His forgiveness for the sake of our Lord Jesus
Christ.Thank God for the gift of confession and absolution!

This was part of a larger article called " What About Confession and Absolution?" written by former LCMS president Dr. A.L. Barry. If you take nothing else away from this, please understand that we are Evangelical Catholic in our own way and we might be a bit closer to the Catholic Church than we could ever be to the Calvinists or the Anabaptists.

 

[Usige]

** Tentatively raises hand** Uh, excuse me, but we Confessional Lutherans believe in the power of the Keys and the importance of Absolution, too, so you might want to add us to the Catholic and Orthodox paradigm, at least as far as Confession and Absolution goes…

Thanks. I was pretty sure that Lutherans (or at least some) held to confession and absolution, but it was based on something my mom, former LCMS, had said many years ago so I wasn’t sure.

 

[Padres1969]

The Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental) also have Confession. And given that Catholics are 50% of world Christians and the Orthodox are another 15%, that gives a solid majority of world Christians believing in the importance of Confession!

Confession is also relevant to not only Confessional Lutherans as mentioned, but many Anglicans as well.

 

[JMM1957]

Yes, it is sometimes a problem to distinguish a venial sin from a mortal sin. Take for example, the sin of theft.
Suppose you stole a small piece of candy worth ten cents from a store. My understanding is that you would not go to hell for that and it would not be a mortal sin. Suppose that you stole ten million dollars from an account. It is my understanding that would be a mortal sin. Well, where is the cutoff between a venial and a mortal sin in dollar amount when someone steals from a company account. Five cents would be a venial sin, but ten million dollars would be a mortal sin. Let’s say that there was a cutoff of 100 dollars. So if you stole 100 dollars or more, it would be a mortal sin, and anything less would be a venial sin.
Well suppose that one person steals $99.99. and the second steals $100 from the same company. Would it be right to send the second person to hell, but not the first since the difference in the theft is only one cent, which is extremely miniscule?
You can disagree with the numerical value of the cutoff but the argument would hold mutatis mutandis regardless of what dollar amount you gave for the cutoff.

Even though the CC can give you a rather extensive list of sins considered to be mortal and venial, its not meant to be an exhaustive list. I think the purpose of it all is to make us pause and reflect on the seriousness of all sin against humanity and God, and what we are accountable for. Many people do not even realize that some of the things they are doing are actually sinful.

 

[Tomdstone]

Many people do not even realize that some of the things they are doing are actually sinful.

I think that is true, but I am not sure how that correlates with the idea of a natural law according to which we are supposed to know right from wrong naturally.

 

[Peter_J]

** Tentatively raises hand** Uh, excuse me, but we Confessional Lutherans believe in the power of the Keys and the importance of Absolution, too, so you might want to add us to the Catholic and Orthodox paradigm, at least as far as Confession and Absolution goes.

I am shocked – shocked – to learn that Confession and Absolution go on in Lutheran churches!

 

[JMM1957]

I think that is true, but I am not sure how that correlates with the idea of a natural law according to which we are supposed to know right from wrong naturally.

I don’t think we were no meant to rely on our conscience entirely, the vast majority of people can figure out “some” things on their own.

 

[MichaelP3]

** Tentatively raises hand** Uh, excuse me, but we Confessional Lutherans believe in the power of the Keys and the importance of Absolution, too, so you might want to add us to the Catholic and Orthodox paradigm, at least as far as Confession and Absolution goes…
Something from a PDF on the LCMS site:

Is confession and absolution a Sacrament?
Although Holy Absolution has no visible element, it defi-
nitely does have Christ’s institution.The Lutheran Confessions
refer to Holy Absolution as a Sacrament (LC IV.74;Ap.XIII.4).
The Lutheran Confessions also wisely point out that “No intelligent
tion!

This was part of a larger article called " What About Confession and Absolution?" written by former LCMS president Dr. A.L. Barry. If you take nothing else away from this, please understand that we are Evangelical Catholic in our own way and we might be a bit closer to the Catholic Church than we could ever be to the Calvinists or the Anabaptists.

I just have 2 questions here as it seems some people misunderstood me. I never argued the importance confession may/may not have (and I think it can be quite beneficial).

1. Would Lutherans or more specifically LCMS believe in die idea of Persona Christi?
2. Do you believe you will go to hell if you are in a state of “mortal” (in brackets as you would also don’t have a distinction but let’s call it bad or worrying) sin if you don’t go to a confession as in personal in front of a priest before you die?

If your answer is no, then it is as I thought, if yes, then I apologise for I was wrong.

No sarcasm intended if it sounds that way. I just got some other strange objections as well and I don’t think people understand my point. It is not about the actual act of confessing that is my problem, it is the ABSOLUTE necessity of it. The question isn’t if you do it, the question is what you think the actual purpose of it is.

Oh and do you have an example of the “can’t remember the word” prayer at the end that a priest will say. Just for interest sake.

 

[JMM1957]

I just have 2 questions here as it seems some people misunderstood me. I never argued the importance confession may/may not have (and I think it can be quite beneficial).

1. Would Lutherans or more specifically LCMS believe in die idea of Persona Christi?
2. Do you believe you will go to hell if you are in a state of “mortal” (in brackets as you would also don’t have a distinction but let’s call it bad or worrying) sin if you don’t go to a confession as in personal in front of a priest before you die?

If your answer is no, then it is as I thought, if yes, then I apologise for I was wrong.

No sarcasm intended if it sounds that way. I just got some other strange objections as well and I don’t think people understand my point. It is not about the actual act of confessing that is my problem, it is the ABSOLUTE necessity of it. The question isn’t if you do it, the question is what you think the actual purpose of it is.
**
Oh and do you have an example of the “can’t remember the word” prayer at the end that a priest will say. Just for interest sake.**

God the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of your son, you have reconciled the world to yourself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins. Through the ministry of the church, may God grant you pardon and peace. And I absolve you of your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I just have 2 questions here as it seems some people misunderstood me. I never argued the importance confession may/may not have (and I think it can be quite beneficial).

1. Would Lutherans or more specifically LCMS believe in die idea of Persona Christi?
2. Do you believe you will go to hell if you are in a state of “mortal” (in brackets as you would also don’t have a distinction but let’s call it bad or worrying) sin if you don’t go to a confession as in personal in front of a priest before you die?

If your answer is no, then it is as I thought, if yes, then I apologise for I was wrong.

No sarcasm intended if it sounds that way. I just got some other strange objections as well and I don’t think people understand my point. It is not about the actual act of confessing that is my problem, it is the ABSOLUTE necessity of it. The question isn’t if you do it, the question is what you think the actual purpose of it is.

Oh and do you have an example of the “can’t remember the word” prayer at the end that a priest will say. Just for interest sake.

It’s not like that my friend. If you repent and intend to go to confession, but die before you get there you can still go to heaven. The catholic church teaches thst while God gives us sacraments, he, himself is not bound by those sacraments.