Non Catholics Who Admire St. Augustine

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I have seen some posters intimate that Augustine might have been less than committed to the Catholic faith.

I wanted to post a few quotes to clear up any misconceptions!

“I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so.”
Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.

“This Church is Holy, the One Church, the True Church, the Catholic Church, fighting as she does against all heresies. She can fight, but she cannot be beaten. All heresies are expelled from her, like the useless loppings pruned from a vine. She remains fixed in her root, in her vine, in her love. The gates of hell shall not conquer her.”
Sermon to Catechumens, on the Creed, 6,14, 395 A.D.

“I believe that this practice comes from apostolic tradition, just as so many other practices not found in their writings nor in the councils of their successors, but which, because they are kept by the whole Church everywhere, are believed to have been commended and handed down by the Apostles themselves.”
Baptism 1,12,20, 400 A.D.

“Let us not listen to those who deny that the Church of GOD is able to forgive all sins. They are wretched indeed, because they do not recognize in Peter the rock and they refuse to believe that the keys of the kingdom of heaven, lost from their own hands, have been given to the Church.” Christian Combat 31,33, 396 A.D.

 

[VARC]

But papal infallibility and immediate, universal papal jurisdiction were foreign from the mind of Augustine and the other ECFs. In Augustine’s world the church was governed by the bishops who held apostolic succesion from the apostles each in their own jurisdiction. The bishop of Rome had authority only in his own patriarchate as the the bishop of Alexandria. The highest authority of the church was an ecumenical council.

Can anyone provide any examples where Augustine stated that the pope governs the entire church or that the pope is infallible?

 

[VARC]

I
“Let us not listen to those who deny that the Church of GOD is able to forgive all sins. They are wretched indeed, because they do not recognize in Peter the rock and they refuse to believe that the keys of the kingdom of heaven, lost from their own hands, have been given to the Church.” Christian Combat 31,33, 396 A.D.

“In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’…But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable” (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1).

 

[Cajetan]

I know that a lot of Calvinists (‘Reformed’ Protestants) hold St. Augustine in high regard, see his writings as a great human authority. Two reasons that I can discern: (a) John Calvin relied upon the Augustine corpus heavily in developing his own Biblical theology, quoting from the Saint liberally and speaking very respectfully of him; and (b) Augustine’s theology never strayed very far from the Biblical text – it is ‘basically Biblical,’ even narrowly Biblical when compared with later Catholic theology (Aristotelian Scholasticism).

The charge of Calvinists, at least, is not that St. Augustine was not truly Catholic or that he had ‘Protestant’ tendencies. Rather, it is that the Roman Catholic Church – in Calvin’s day and in ours – is no longer the same Catholic Church that Augustine flourished in. The Catholic Church of Augustine’s day, they hold, was a purer, more Biblically-focused Church which has since been corrupted, with the later addition of doctrines and dogmas which they see as non-Biblical.

Also important to note is Calvin’s testimony that he did not wish to leave the Roman Catholic Church; he desired to remain a Catholic and reform the Church from within (as many a good Catholic has done, to the Church’s benefit). But then came the political firestorm of the Council of Trent, which declared Calvin a heretic and anathema. At that point Calvin and his followers felt that they had to persevere outside of the fold of Rome, creating churches which they felt were more in accord with the Biblical faith of the Church Fathers and Augustine. They weren’t ‘happy’ about this fracture in the Western Church and they acknowledged that their new churches were far from perfect; but they felt that they had little choice. To them, it was either follow God or follow ‘corrupt’ Roman authorities.

 

[Asimis]

“In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’…But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable” (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1).

Hi,

What is the name of the book to which this retraction belongs?

Thanks.

 

[VARC]

Hi,

What is the name of the book to which this retraction belongs?

Thanks.

The Retractions
amazon.com/Fathers-Church-Saint-Augustine-Retractions/dp/0813209706

 

[Asimis]

The Retractions

No, I mean the book he is speaking about in the Retractions. The Retractions are a catalog of all his books in which he makes comments about each of them. For instance, in the Retractions you find comments about the City of God, On the Trinity, On Free Will, etc. What is the name of the work he is talking about?

 

[VARC]

No, I mean the book he is speaking about in the Retractions. The Retractions are a catalog of all his books in which he makes comments about each of them. For instance, in the Retractions you find comments about the City of God, On the Trinity, On Free Will, etc. What is the name of the work he is talking about?

Chapter 20, which is where the above exerpt is taken, is titled One Letter against the heretic Donatist

 

[O.S.Luke]

Gus was “the man.” A little guilt-ridden, maybe - but still awesome. I took Theology of Augustine in seminary: Confessions was a good read, City of God was tough. But glad I took the course.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable"QUOTE]

The Catholic Church makes no strong distinction between the two opinions. Both can be found in Catholic writings.

Augustine confirms the Church’s position sthat Peter is the person of the Church is built upon Peter, and that Peter received the keys to the kingdom.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

But papal infallibility and immediate, universal papal jurisdiction were foreign from the mind of Augustine and the other ECFs. In Augustine’s world the church was governed by the bishops who held apostolic succesion from the apostles each in their own jurisdiction. The bishop of Rome had authority only in his own patriarchate as the the bishop of Alexandria. The highest authority of the church was an ecumenical council.

Can anyone provide any examples where Augustine stated that the pope governs the entire church or that the pope is infallible?

I disagree with your conclusion.

First, we have this:

After all, it isn’t just one man that received these keys, but the Church in its unity. So this is the reason for Peter’s acknowledged preeminence, that he stood for the Church’s universality and unity, when he was told, ‘To you I am entrusting,’ what has in fact been entrusted to all (Sermon 295).

The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church (Commentary on the Gospel of John, Tractate 124.5).

“[On this matter of the Pelagians] two councils have already been sent to the Apostolic See [the bishop of Rome], and from there rescripts too have come. The matter is at an end; would that the error too might be at an end!” (Sermons 131:10 [A.D. 411]).

Here’s clear evidence of Augustine’s understanding of the role of the papacy from a letter he wrote regarding pelagianism:

Not long after this date, St. Augustine and St. Alypius wrote to St. Paulinus of Nola, whom they knew to have been formerly a friend of Pelagius, to warn him against his doctrines, which were said to be spreading among the citizens of Nola, and of which St. Paulinus himself appears to have been claimed as protector. They gave him an account of the Synod of Diospolis, and enclosed copies of the letters of the African councils to St. Innocent, and of the Pope’s replies. They say:

“After letters had come to us from the East, discussing the case in the clearest manner, we were bound not to fail in assisting the Church’s need with such episcopal authority as we possess (nullo modo jam qualicumque episcopali auctoritate deesse Ecclesiae debueramus). In consequence, relations as to this matter were sent from two Councils – those of Carthage and of Milevis – to the Apostolic See, before the ecclesiastical acts by which Pelagius is said to have been acquitted had come into our hands or into Africa at all. We also wrote to Pope Innocent, of blessed memory a private letter, besides the relations of the Councils, wherein we described the case at greater length, TO ALL OF THESE HE ANSWERED IN THE MANNER WHICH WAS THE RIGHT AND DUTY OF THE BISHOP OF THE APOSTOLIC SEE (Ad omnia nobis ille rescripsit eo modo quo fas erat atque oportebat Apostolicae sedis Antistitem). All of which you may now read, if perchance none of them or not all of them have yet received you; in them you will see that, while he has preserved the moderation which was right, so that the heretic should not be condemned if he condemns his errors, yet the new and pernicious error is so restrained by ecclesiastical authority that we much wonder that there should be any still remaining who, by any error whatsoever, try to fight against the grace of God…” [65]
bringyou.to/apologetics/num16.htm

This entire article is full of many quotes which make his position clear with regard to the authority of Rome and the papacy.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

NOTE: This is the edit of the post above. I’m not sure what happended there, but I can’t edit it for some reason.

VARC;4547093:

Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable"QUOTE]

The Catholic Church makes no strong distinction between the two opinions. Both can be found in Catholic writings.

Augustine confirms the Church’s position that Peter is the PERSON chosen by Christ to represent his Church, and that Peter received the keys to the kingdom.

 

[withwind]

Gus was “the man.” A little guilt-ridden, maybe - but still awesome. I took Theology of Augustine in seminary: Confessions was a good read, City of God was tough. But glad I took the course.

I have the Confessions but haven’t got time to read it yet. I hope I will have time to read it soon. Thanks for bringing this up, Luke.

 

[underdog]

Thanks for the very interesting thread and additional posts. It seems to me that 21st century Catholics tend not to be very Augustinian in their views. On the other side, 21st century Protestants tend not to be very Augustinian either. We all know that Calvin, Luther and other Reformers were influenced by Augustine. And the saying goes, Augustine was influenced by the Apostle Paul.

Personally, I find that most 21s century Catholics are similar to 21st century Protestants on biblical doctrine like free will, and the rejection of predestination, and/or double-predestination, depravity and inability. Even though original sin is believed by some, but maybe not believed in the same way Augustine believed. I think it would be interesting to see all the great saints who lived before the Protestant Reformation… which ones would have sided with the Protestant Reformers if they lived in the 16th century. It seems to me 21st century Roman Catholicism has embraced forms of relativism and pluralism to mirror the culture of our day. I make that observation based on the threads on Muslims and unbelieving Jews. Maybe a better question to ask, does the Catholic Church change with the culture of the day to understand Augustine. Here is a quote by a very famous Baptist preacher:

“The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox’s gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again.”— C. H. Spurgeon

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Thanks for the very interesting thread and additional posts. It seems to me that 21st century Catholics tend not to be very Augustinian in their views. On the other side, 21st century Protestants tend not to be very Augustinian either. We all know that Calvin, Luther and other Reformers were influenced by Augustine. And the saying goes, Augustine was influenced by the Apostle Paul.

Personally, I find that most 21s century Catholics are similar to 21st century Protestants on biblical doctrine like free will, and the rejection of predestination, and/or double-predestination, depravity and inability. Even though original sin is believed by some, but maybe not believed in the same way Augustine believed. I think it would be interesting to see all the great saints who lived before the Protestant Reformation… which ones would have sided with the Protestant Reformers if they lived in the 16th century. It seems to me 21st century Roman Catholicism has embraced forms of relativism and pluralism to mirror the culture of our day. I make that observation based on the threads on Muslims and unbelieving Jews. Maybe a better question to ask, does the Catholic Church change with the culture of the day to understand Augustine. Here is a quote by a very famous Baptist preacher:

“The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox’s gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again.”— C. H. Spurgeon

There are distinctions between Calvin on the one hand and Paul and Augustine on the other.

Paul did not believe in perseverence of the saints. He made it clear that he was not yet assured of his own salvation, let alone anyone elses. He admonished to work with fear and trembling and to strain onward for the prize.

Augustine was clear as to our responsibility with regard to free will:

"But since there are some persons who so defend God’s grace as to deny man’s free will, or who suppose that free will is denied when grace is defended, I have determined to write somewhat on this point to your Love, my brother Valentinus, and the rest of you, who are serving God together under the impulse of a mutual love. For it has been told me concerning you, brethren, by some members of your brotherhood who have visited us, and are the bearers of this communication of ours to you, that there are dissensions among you on this subject.

There is, to begin with, the fact that God’s precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards. For they are given that no one might be able to plead the excuse of ignorance, as the Lord says concerning the Jews in the gospel: If I had not come and spoken unto them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. John 15:22"

 

[underdog]

There are distinctions between Calvin on the one hand and Paul and Augustine on the other.

Paul did not believe in perseverence of the saints. He made it clear that he was not yet assured of his own salvation, let alone anyone elses. He admonished to work with fear and trembling and to strain onward for the prize.

Augustine was clear as to our responsibility with regard to free will:

"But since there are some persons who so defend God’s grace as to deny man’s free will, or who suppose that free will is denied when grace is defended, I have determined to write somewhat on this point to your Love, my brother Valentinus, and the rest of you, who are serving God together under the impulse of a mutual love. For it has been told me concerning you, brethren, by some members of your brotherhood who have visited us, and are the bearers of this communication of ours to you, that there are dissensions among you on this subject.

There is, to begin with, the fact that God’s precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards. For they are given that no one might be able to plead the excuse of ignorance, as the Lord says concerning the Jews in the gospel: If I had not come and spoken unto them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. John 15:22"

I would say that the Apostle Paul and Apostle John clearly taught perseverence of the saints.

God’s Everlasting Love

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. - The Apostle Paul

1 John 5:13

That You May Know

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. - The Apostle John

In addition, the Apostle John actually had a different view of free will in the new birth.

The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - The Apostle John

Here is your bible verse that you quoted in context:

The Hatred of the World
18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. 21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, [3] but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me without a cause.’

26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I would say that the Apostle Paul and Apostle John clearly taught perseverence of the saints.

Here is your bible verse that you quoted in context:

QUOTE]

I didn’t quote a verse, Augustine did.

As to your point:

John:

John 15:4-6 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned”.

Paul:

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.

Phili 3
10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. 15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things.

 

[underdog]

underdog;4550139:

I would say that the Apostle Paul and Apostle John clearly taught perseverence of the saints.

Here is your bible verse that you quoted in context:

QUOTE]

I didn’t quote a verse, Augustine did.

As to your point:

John:

John 15:4-6 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned”.

Paul:

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.

Phili 3
10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. 15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things.

As much as I admire Augustine, the Apostle Paul is authorative over Augustine. Please consider the entire books of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, the gospel of John, 1 John, 1 and 2 Peter on the topic of free will and peserverance of the saints.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4550317:

As much as I admire Augustine, the Apostle Paul is authorative over Augustine. Please consider the entire books of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, the gospel of John, 1 John, 1 and 2 Peter on the topic of free will and peserverance of the saints.

You would just reject them as well when I show that they disagree with Calvin.

You sure dropped Augustine fast!

You didn’t address the proof I gave you that Paul and John don’t buy into the man made dogma of perseverence of the saints.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Thanks for the very interesting thread and additional posts. It seems to me that 21st century Catholics tend not to be very Augustinian in their views. On the other side, 21st century Protestants tend not to be very Augustinian either. We all know that Calvin, Luther and other Reformers were influenced by Augustine. And the saying goes, Augustine was influenced by the Apostle Paul.

Personally, I find that most 21s century Catholics are similar to 21st century Protestants on biblical doctrine like free will, and the rejection of predestination, and/or double-predestination, depravity and inability. Even though original sin is believed by some, but maybe not believed in the same way Augustine believed. I think it would be interesting to see all the great saints who lived before the Protestant Reformation… which ones would have sided with the Protestant Reformers if they lived in the 16th century. It seems to me 21st century Roman Catholicism has embraced forms of relativism and pluralism to mirror the culture of our day. I make that observation based on the threads on Muslims and unbelieving Jews. Maybe a better question to ask, does the Catholic Church change with the culture of the day to understand Augustine. Here is a quote by a very famous Baptist preacher:

“The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox’s gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again.”— C. H. Spurgeon

Do you mind sharing the distinct differences that you stated. I have read more writings of Calvin than Luther. But, I thought Luther taught predestination with greater force than Calvin. I also have read works by Augustine too. Please help me understand what you are sharing. I believe Augustine influenced both Luther and Calvin, but I could be wrong. Without the complete sovereignty of God in all things including salvation of sinners (predestination), can we trust God to accomplish all that He promises in His Word (the Bible)?

I thought Rome taught the doctrine of originial sin? Please study Romans 5. I know Augustine believed in original sin… and so did King David.

npatrol: