Non-Chrisitian/Messianic Jews-What is the New Covenant the God of Israel annouces in Jeremiah 31:31-37?

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Lev23

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**Jeremiah 31:31-37
“The time is coming,” declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
Code: 
 It will not be like the covenant 
   I made with their forefathers 
   when I took them by the hand 
   to lead them out of Egypt, 
   because they broke my covenant, 
   though I was a husband to  them,  " 
   declares the LORD. 

 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel 
   after that time," declares the LORD. 
   "I will put my law in their minds 
   and write it on their hearts. 
   I will be their God, 
   and they will be my people. 

  No longer will a man teach his neighbor, 
   or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' 
   because they will all know me, 
   from the least of them to the greatest," 
   declares the LORD. 
   "For I will forgive their wickedness 
   and will remember their sins no more." 

  This is what the LORD says, 
   he who appoints the sun 
   to shine by day, 
   who decrees the moon and stars 
   to shine by night, 
   who stirs up the sea 
   so that its waves roar— 
   the LORD Almighty is his name: 

 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," 
   declares the LORD, 
   "will the descendants of Israel ever cease 
   to be a nation before me." 

   This is what the LORD says: 
   "Only if the heavens above can be measured 
   and the foundations of the earth below be searched out 
   will I reject all the descendants of Israel 
   because of all they have done," 
   declares the LORD.**
Thank you in advance for your views!
 
I’m just throwing this up here before the sabbath begins.

I went to askmoses.com today to their “ask a question live with a Rabbi”, but both times I did not get an answer. One time because the Rabbi did not have the book in front of him, and the other time I was told there was alot of traffic on the website.

With such an announcement of the God of Israel through his prophet Jeremiah, I thought there would be some discussion with our Jewish friends here. After all, the God of Israel says this New Covenant will not be like that was made when he led them by the hand out of Egypt, though they broke it.
 
I was thrown by your “re” line because Messianic Jews are Christians (controversial topic - but Christian because we/they accept Christ as the Messiah).

This is my favorite verse in scripture (thus my signature line).

As a believer in Christ, of course, I believe this refers to the new covenant (the gospel) when God has written the law in our hearts. Notice how this covenant would expressly be different from the Mosaic covenant.

Many traditional Jews interpret this as refering to a renewal of the Mosaic covenant where all the laws (all 613 commandments of the Hebrew Scriptures) are written into our hearts.

Hope that helps.

Blessings,

Brian
 
Robbinson said:
I was thrown by your “re” line because Messianic Jews are Christians (controversial topic - but Christian because we/they accept Christ as the Messiah).
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Agreed. I just put that there because some like to stress they are called this or that.
Robbinson said:
This is my favorite verse in scripture (thus my signature line).

As a believer in Christ, of course, I believe this refers to the new covenant (the gospel) when God has written the law in our hearts. Notice how this covenant would expressly be different from the Mosaic covenant.
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Yup! 👍
Robbinson said:
Many traditional Jews interpret this as refering to a renewal of the Mosaic covenant where all the laws (all 613 commandments of the Hebrew Scriptures) are written into our hearts.
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Yes, I heard this to. But what I don’t get answered is how this is achieved-
**“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.” **
 
Well I didn’t understand ither thought it too was confusing Christian means Jesus and Messianic Jew I think believe in Jesus. so non-C would not believe in Christ.

I have a different question though a bit off topic, is a Jewish religion that follows Mosaic different than one who follows Abraham? I thought they all believed equally in the prophets equally. And is their another that follows Noah similar to Islam?

So who do the Messianic Jews follow for the Old Testament prophet?
 
dessert said:
Well I didn’t understand ither thought it too was confusing Christian means Jesus and Messianic Jew I think believe in Jesus. so non-C would not believe in Christ.

I have a different question though a bit off topic, is a Jewish religion that follows Mosaic different than one who follows Abraham? I thought they all believed equally in the prophets equally. And is their another that follows Noah similar to Islam?

So who do the Messianic Jews follow for the Old Testament prophet?
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All the same. Abraham was the first Jew - called by God to follow God and given the promise that through his seed, all nations would be blessed. Later in history, God appeared to Moses and used him to lead the Jewish people out of slavery from Egypt (book of Exodus and Numbers) and then gave Moses the 10 commandments and the Mosaic Law (thats the 613 commandments in the Hebrew scriptures, including the 10 commandments, the levitical priesthood laws, dietary laws, etc). So the Jewish people today (who don’t believe the Messiah has come) are under the Mosaic Law (e.g., all the laws of the Old Testatement).

Hope that helps.

Blessings,

Brian
 
Sepharad said:
This might help you; its a traditional Jewish interpretation from a Noahide website (Gentiles who keep the parts of Jewish Law that pertain to them):

asknoah.org/HTML/new_covenant.html

Gut Shabbos!
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So according to the link you posted, God will send the Messiah some day come and he will just smooth things over, especially the sin issue of Israel, not to mention the whole world.

Men broke his law, there are penalties to pay, Gods perfect judgement must be met. The wages of sin is DEATH! Sin originated in Satan(Isaiah14:12-14) and entered this world through Adam. We, as men, who are guilty of breaking Gods Law, will someday be pardoned without the penalty ever being paid for. I don’t know any court of Law here on Earth that operates as such, do you?!

Why is Gods Law, who is the creator, be fluffed over?

Your link you provided barely touches this issue of how God can all of a sudden remember our sins no more.
 
Lev23 said:
So according to the link you posted, God will send the Messiah some day come and he will just smooth things over, especially the sin issue of Israel, not to mention the whole world.

Men broke his law, there are penalties to pay, Gods perfect judgement must be met. The wages of sin is DEATH! Sin originated in Satan(Isaiah14:12-14) and entered this world through Adam. We, as men, who are guilty of breaking Gods Law, will someday be pardoned without the penalty ever being paid for. I don’t know any court of Law here on Earth that operates as such, do you?!

Why is Gods Law, who is the creator, be fluffed over?

Your link you provided barely touches this issue of how God can all of a sudden remember our sins no more.
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You might need to argue that with the authors of that website, not with me.

There are various interpretations in Jewish Law…just as every Biblical passage can be understood in several different ways.

As for your mention of “Satan”, if you are ever curious about the traditional Jewish concept of ha’satan, you can read the Book of Job. That Biblical book shows his true role as opposed to how Christianity sees his role.
 
Sepharad said:
You might need to argue that with the authors of that website, not with me.

There are various interpretations in Jewish Law…just as every Biblical passage can be understood in several different ways.
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I figured since you posted that link that is interpretaion you hold to. Is it?
Sepharad said:
As for your mention of “Satan”, if you are ever curious about the traditional Jewish concept of ha’satan, you can read the Book of Job. That Biblical book shows his true role as opposed to how Christianity sees his role.
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And how do the views differ?
 
Christianity seems to see ha’satan (the adversary) as a deity un to himself…one that can do evil and wreak damage of his own will, to Christians. To me, this is akin to the ancient Manichees, who espoused a form of dualism that held there are two deities, each warring with the other (good vs evil).

In Jewish thought, ha’satan (the adversary) is an INSTRUMENT USED BY God, to achieve ultimately, a good purpose. He can do nothing without God’s consent and permission. The Book of Job illustrates this perfectly.

This is also why we never capitalize the word “satan” because it is not a proper name as we see it: it is the Hebrew word for ‘adversary’, nothing more. Christians usually capitalize it as if it is a proper noun/name of a separate being.

Christian thought seems to see ha’satan as a powerful being who wars against God and His people…the prayer to St Michael the Archangel (said after low Mass) illustrates this, when Catholics pray, “St Michael the Archangel defend us in battle, be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil…etc”
 
Sepharad said:
Christianity seems to see ha’satan (the adversary) as a deity un to himself…one that can do evil and wreak damage of his own will, to Christians. To me, this is akin to the ancient Manichees, who espoused a form of dualism that held there are two deities, each warring with the other (good vs evil).

In Jewish thought, ha’satan (the adversary) is an INSTRUMENT USED BY God, to achieve ultimately, a good purpose. He can do nothing without God’s consent and permission. The Book of Job illustrates this perfectly.

This is also why we never capitalize the word “satan” because it is not a proper name as we see it: it is the Hebrew word for ‘adversary’, nothing more. Christians usually capitalize it as if it is a proper noun/name of a separate being.

Christian thought seems to see ha’satan as a powerful being who wars against God and His people…the prayer to St Michael the Archangel (said after low Mass) illustrates this, when Catholics pray, “St Michael the Archangel defend us in battle, be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil…etc”
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Hi

Actually - Satan is not thought of as a diety or God like - he is a fallen Angel. This is consistent with Jewish thought about Satan - he is ultimately an instrument of God like all other creations of God. Jewish thought and Christian thought on this are not inconsistent, although the Christian understanding of Hell and of Satan’s demise are more fully revealed and discussed in the New Testatement.

Regards,

Brian
 
Messianic Jews are not Christians identified as true members of the body of Christ if they have not been baptized in the Triune formula as stated in scripture.
 
peary said:
Messianic Jews are not Christians identified as true members of the body of Christ if they have not been baptized in the Triune formula as stated in scripture.
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The “messianic synagogue” I am most familiar with adheres to a basically evangelical Protestant/charismatic theology, and they do baptize in the name of a triune deity.

Technically that makes them “Christians”, but heaven help you if you ever go there and call them that! :rolleyes:
 
Sepharad said:
The “messianic synagogue” I am most familiar with adheres to a basically evangelical Protestant/charismatic theology, and they do baptize in the name of a triune deity.

Technically that makes them “Christians”, but heaven help you if you ever go there and call them that! :rolleyes:
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I always believed that, at the Last Judgment, Christ would come through His Church (Catholic Church) and judge us first; He would judge His Chosen People last.
 
peary said:
I always believed that, at the Last Judgment, Christ would come through His Church (Catholic Church) and judge us first; He would judge His Chosen People last.
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It says in the NT that “judgement shall first begin at the house of God” (1 Peter 4:7). So if one believes the Catholic church is “the house of God”, I suppose that would be true in your theology.
 
Not all Messianic congregations believe in the Trinity, so not all are Christians.

I have a very good friend who is a Messianic Jew and although his congregation does believe that Jesus is Messiah, they don’t believe He is God.

in Christ
Steph
 
tundramom said:
Not all Messianic congregations believe in the Trinity, so not all are Christians.

I have a very good friend who is a Messianic Jew and although his congregation does believe that Jesus is Messiah, they don’t believe He is God.

in Christ
Steph
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This may come as a shock to you, but if that is truly what they believe, then they are not sinning in the eyes of Judaism.

Judaism’s problem with Jesus is really that mostly all who do believe in him, see him as a deity.

If they truly do not see him that way, and feel he was just a mortal man, then they are not sinning! Amazing, eh?

I once asked this very question of an Orthodox rabbi I knew, because I had the same question myself.

He said as long as they do not believe Jesus was divine, they are not doing anything wrong. I then replied, “But what if Jesus was a false messiah, as we believe he was?”

The rabbi said, “Then such a Jew, who still believes in Jesus as messiah, would be a fool…for Jesus died before his mission could be completed. But there is nothing in Jewish Law that says a Jew cannot be a fool!”

And the reasons why he said such a Jew would still be foolish are found here: whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation03.html
 
Sepharad said:
This may come as a shock to you, but if that is truly what they believe, then they are not sinning in the eyes of Judaism.

Judaism’s problem with Jesus is really that mostly all who do believe in him, see him as a deity.

If they truly do not see him that way, and feel he was just a mortal man, then they are not sinning! Amazing, eh?

I once asked this very question of an Orthodox rabbi I knew, because I had the same question myself.

He said as long as they do not believe Jesus was divine, they are not doing anything wrong. I then replied, “But what if Jesus was a false messiah, as we believe he was?”

The rabbi said, “Then such a Jew, who still believes in Jesus as messiah, would be a fool…for Jesus died before his mission could be completed. But there is nothing in Jewish Law that says a Jew cannot be a fool!”

And the reasons why he said such a Jew would still be foolish are found here: whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation03.html
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Hi Sepharad:

Thanks for the link -but its somewhat misleading. There is a jewish tradition that one man’s sin can be atoned for by another’s death. There is a jewish tradition that upon the high priest’s death, the sins of others would be forgiven.

In terms of the sacrafice of God’s only begotton son, it was prefigured in the account of Isaac’s near sacrafice by Abraham - where we were told God would prepare the sacrafice (and so He did! :-)).

In terms of the Messiah being divine? Let me ask you just 2 questions (I could ask many others), but I would be interested in your reply even to just these 2:
  1. Who do you think it was that Abraham was speaking to on the way to Sodom who appeared in the form of a man - but who was later referred to as Lord? Gen 18:16-17 (When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way.
    18:17
    Then the Lord said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?)    ; and
  2. What do you make of Isaiah 9:6 (often considered messianic in Jewish literature and studies) which refers to the annoited as “mightly God”? (For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. )
With affection (and appreciative of your respectful dialouge),

Brian
 
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