Non-Chrisitian/Messianic Jews-What is the New Covenant the God of Israel annouces in Jeremiah 31:31-37?

[Robbinson]

There is a jewish tradition that one man’s sin can be atoned for by another’s death. There is a jewish tradition that upon the high priest’s death, the sins of others would be forgiven.

Amplifying this point in my prior post, Immediately after discussing the use of Para Adumah [Red Heifer] ashes to purify a person who came into contact with the dead, the Torah tells us of the death of Miriam [Bamidbar 20:1]. The Talmud says [Moed Katan 28a] that the juxtaposition of these two parshios teaches that “***Just as the Para Adumah atones, so too the death of a righteous person atones”. ***

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Sepharad]

Amplifying this point in my prior post, Immediately after discussing the use of Para Adumah [Red Heifer] ashes to purify a person who came into contact with the dead, the Torah tells us of the death of Miriam [Bamidbar 20:1]. The Talmud says [Moed Katan 28a] that the juxtaposition of these two parshios teaches that “***Just as the Para Adumah atones, so too the death of a righteous person atones”. ***

Blessings,

Brian

In the Kabbalistic writings (Jewish mysticism), there is a tradition that one very righteous man can atone for the sins ***of other Jews ***but only for the sins of those in his specific generation. When I first studied that in Kabbalah, I immediately saw where Christians developed their theology that “Jesus died for everyone’s sins”. The difference is, they teach that he died for the sins of ALL people of ALL time. Judaism teaches that one very righteous person can atone for the sins of other Jews, but only those in HIS generation.

Brian: I am not here to debate religious views, but to correct mistaken views of Judaism as they arise. Along those lines, this should help you with Isaiah 9: jewishcountermissionary.blogspot.com/2005/09/isaiah-956-about-what.html

 

[Robbinson]

Brian: I am not here to debate religious views, but to correct mistaken views of Judaism as they arise.

Sepharad:

I can respect that - I was only responding to the link you provided in the prior post and your affirmative statement that in Judaism we are all responsible for our own sins and the death of one can’t atone for the sin of another. I believe I’ve demonstrated that statement is not entirely accurate (there are actually other examples, outside of Kaabala for this principle in Judaism).

Of course, the entire levitical sacraficial system was based upon using blood for the atonement of sin (in that case a covering for sin which had to be repeated) -but as the Lord told us in the Hebrew scriptures, atonement is in the blood.

Lev 17:11 (For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.)

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Sepharad]

Sepharad:

I can respect that - I was only responding to the link you provided in the prior post and your affirmative statement that in Judaism we are all responsible for our own sins and the death of one can’t atone for the sin of another. I believe I’ve demonstrated that statement is not entirely accurate (there are actually other examples, outside of Kaabala for this principle in Judaism).

Of course, the entire levitical sacraficial system was based upon using blood for the atonement of sin (in that case a covering for sin which had to be repeated) -but as the Lord told us in the Hebrew scriptures, atonement is in the blood.

Lev 17:11 (For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.)

Blessings,

Brian

Scroll down on this link and you will find a traditional Jewish explanation for Lev 17 and the sacrificial system. Blood is not the ONLY atonement for sin in Judaism, but it is AN atonement.

home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/j4j_no.html

This is another good one: home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/verses.html#2

 

[Robbinson]

Scroll down on this link and you will find a traditional Jewish explanation for Lev 17 and the sacrificial system. Blood is not the ONLY atonement for sin in Judaism, but it is AN atonement.

home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/j4j_no.html

This is another good one: home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/verses.html#2

Sepharad:

The problem with cites/links like the one you provided is that are very misleading and taking verses out of context to try to establish a principle which is just not there. If you read the context of those verses in the link you will find that in each case, the alternative atonement was in the context of a sacraficial offering. Flour - would be burned together with the bull offering on the altar, atonement money is not in lieu of sacrafice and the psalm that says God doesn’t want sacrafice goes to sacrafices meaning nothing if not coupled with repentence. The word blood appears in over 118 verses in the first 5 books of Moses alone. The entire levitical sacraficial system turns on the blood as the means of atonement. The day of atonement turned on the blood sacrafice on the altar. On this, our scriptures could not be more clear. Sadly, this idea that blood is/was not necessary for the atonement of sin is an invention of the Jewish antimissionary movement and natural outgrowth of rabbinic judaism after the destruction of the temple and inability to perform sacrafices any longer and doesnt really hold water if you step back and read these verses in context and look at the “story” being told in the scriptures.

I’m not suggesting you need to believe what I believe regarding Yeshua (though of course, I wish you would - and I will respect your wish not to try to be convinced , but please do read some of these links critically (and I’ll happily read critically as well) and as you are posting them here, I feel its appropriate to point out the deficiencies/vulnerabilities in those links.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Sepharad]

Brian, I hear what you’re saying, but many years ago I did research all of this (long story) when I first got involved in exit counseling and countermissionary work. Its kinda old hat to me, but I don’t want to go into it in great detail here because a) its not why I’m on this forum and b) I frankly, don’t have the time for it (it involves too much research and typing.)

 

[Lev23]

Technically that makes them “Christians”, but heaven help you if you ever go there and call them that!

A Christian is a Messianic, a Messianic is a Christian. One is a transliteration, one is a direct translation. Those that do prefer to be called this or that should not be burdoned or burdon others to say this or that.

The point is, all those who are in the New Covanent are under the God of Israel’s Grace, and not under the Mosiac Law anymore.

**Romans 7:1-4

Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.

So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ(Messiah), that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.**

 

[Lev23]

I always believed that, at the Last Judgment, Christ would come through His Church (Catholic Church) and judge us first; He would judge His Chosen People last.

1 Peter 4:15-19
If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.