Non Christian Playing Guitar in Mass

[cheese_sdc]

Okay - - I apologize. That was way snarkier than called for. I guess there are a few questions in my mind:

1. Has the music director expressed that he / she is in need of a guitar player?

This is actually a parish and choir I played with in my previous life as a Catholic. They’re used to having two guitars, piano, and flute (which would be the set up now). I am a semi-advanced player and I adjust my playing to different registers based on what the other guitarist is playing (if he is strumming open chords, I’ll play arpeggios in a different octave, if he’s playing arpeggios, I’ll play accent triads). I made it clear to the director that she can say “no” with no hurt feelings.

The biggest problem is that the church is filled with people I used to know, and I’m worried that they’ll think that I’m going to have or have already had some sort of conversion based on my participation.

Again, I have not misrespresented myself and have made it plain to the people that have asked that I’m not planning on converting.

1. How vocal are you likely to be against the Catholic Church? As long as you don’t loudly announce “Well, off to Druid circle!” at the end of Mass, I think your fallen away status is not that important.

That would be just tacky.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The biggest problem is that the church is filled with people I used to know, and I’m worried that they’ll think that I’m going to have or have already had some sort of conversion based on my participation.

This will intensify beyond your belief.

I am also wondering if your daughter will be given false hope here. If you are adamant that you will not convert, and even if you are upfront with her about it, she will always have that idea in the back of her head when she sees you there.

I will be away from posting for a few days, but I am curious as to why you don’t just convert. As to what dogma is holding you back?

(see, it is already starting)

 

[cheese_sdc]

I will be away from posting for a few days, but I am curious as to why you don’t just convert.

Because I don’t want to. I don’t believe in the Christian God, and I don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus.

 

[savedbygrace71]

I understand lector, at least in certain circumstances… e.g. at a wedding.

I don’t understand how a non-Catholic Christian could be an EM, though. At the very least, I don’t see how a non-Catholic Christian who doesn’t believe in the real presence could be an EM. That seems nuts.

I don’t seem to be able to quote you and the quote you had already… but the original poster you quoted said “may NOT” be a lector or EM, not may be. he/she was saying, non Catholics can’t be those things, but could possibly participate in the choir duties.

OP, I happen to think if you would like to spend time with your daughter respectfully enjoying the Mass and allowing her and her fellow choir members to be enthusiastic, then do so. There is no time like childhood to develop those passions and now is not a time to confuse her.

 

[Old_Sarum]

There’s absolutely no place for guitar music in the liturgy. Here is a good article on Pope Pius X’s motu proprio on sacred music in the liturgy:

americancatholicpress.org/articlesMotuProprio.html

You’re absolutely welcome to come to our Church, as long as you follow our customs and behave respectfully. In fact, we’d encourage you to do so! We’d all hope that it would bring you closer to God, through your love of your daughter.

The hiring of musicians to provide music as a setting to the liturgical text is a service -just as an energy provider provides a service allowing for light and heat in the chapel. Therefore it is not necessary that they be Catholic. It is not prudent, however, to allow a public sinner such as a heretic, apostate or infidel to have such a prominent position. To do so would cause scandal.

A non-Catholic cannot be the cantor or serve in the choir because these are clerical positions to an extent. They can attend the liturgy in as much as it helps their conversion.

 

[cheese_sdc]

There’s absolutely no place for guitar music in the liturgy. Here is a good article on Pope Pius X’s motu proprio on sacred music in the liturgy:

Nice try, but we’re not living in the 19th century.

Here’s something up to date to chew on:

yakimadiocese.org/pdf/SingToTheLord.pdf

 

[Old_Sarum]

Nice try, but we’re not living in the 19th century.

Here’s something up to date to chew on:

yakimadiocese.org/pdf/SingToTheLord.pdf

The Truth’s expressed by Saint Pius X are not limited to a particular century. Truth is objective and therefore not bound to time.

The USCCB’s document does not say that the use of guitars is acceptable. It does reference stringed instruments though.

Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy and dean of theology at the Regina Apostolorum university has this to say on the matter:

While musical instruments can be fairly neutral in themselves, their social and religious connotations provide the bishops with elements to judge their liturgical suitability.

For example, a musical instrument strongly identified with secular music or profane situations such as dance or theater would probably be excluded if its use in the liturgy spontaneously evoked less-than-sacred mental associations in the assembly.

He is repeating the teaching of Pope Saint Pius X. Guitars are just not for sacred music, because they’re for pop songs and are associated with secular music.

 

[porthos11]

The Truth’s expressed by Saint Pius X are not limited to a particular century. Truth is objective and therefore not bound to time.

The USCCB’s document does not say that the use of guitars is acceptable. It does reference stringed instruments though.

Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy and dean of theology at the Regina Apostolorum university has this to say on the matter:

He is repeating the teaching of Pope Saint Pius X. Guitars are just not for sacred music, because they’re for pop songs and are associated with secular music.

The question of guitars at Mass is not the one raised by this thread.

 

[cheese_sdc]

The Truth’s expressed by Saint Pius X are not limited to a particular century. Truth is objective and therefore not bound to time.

The USCCB’s document does not say that the use of guitars is acceptable. It does reference stringed instruments though.

Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy and dean of theology at the Regina Apostolorum university has this to say on the matter:

He is repeating the teaching of Pope Saint Pius X. Guitars are just not for sacred music, because they’re for pop songs and are associated with secular music.

I’m sure you can find another thread to troll.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Truth be told, I played this Sunday for the Children’s choir (they sing at one Mass a month).

It was honestly uncomfortable, for a host of reasons, but not any of the one’s raised so far. My plan is give it another month or two and just see. I’ve learned that I can learn something from my discomfort, so maybe this experience has something to teach me.

 

[seagal]

There’s absolutely no place for guitar music in the liturgy.

That’s your personal opinion. The Celebrate in Song book, that was released along with the new translation of the liturgy in 2011, has music arranged for folk groups.

 

[Old_Sarum]

That’s your personal opinion. The Celebrate in Song book, that was released along with the new translation of the liturgy in 2011, has music arranged for folk groups.

No, it’s the authoritative opinion of the Church to which I submit. It’s a magisterial teaching. I’m sure the celebrate in song book has some lovely tunes in it, but a guitar is simply not worthy of being used in the liturgy. Outside of that context it is fine. I personally like folk music, and would love to find more Christian folk.

cheese_sdc:

I’m sure you can find another thread to troll.

Hey now, there’s no reason to be rude, friend. I expressed my thoughts on this as you asked. A guitar being played in the context of the liturgy is not appropriate, and so it is one of the issues with a non-Catholic playing guitar for Mass. The other issue I brought up was the scandal it would cause having a non-believer being given a prominent role in the liturgy. It promotes indifferentism.

I think it’s very kind to offer to play an instrument for the Church, but the instrument is not appropriate because of its association with secular music. Sacred music has to be something more. It has to be exceptional. Guitar music in church has been a big stumbling block for a lot of faithful Catholics because it cheapens the liturgy by associating it with entertainment music. I’m sorry if I offended you here, I really didn’t mean to denigrate your good intentions.

 

[ProVobis]

I think it’s very kind to offer to play an instrument for the Church, but the instrument is not appropriate because of its association with secular music. Sacred music has to be something more. It has to be exceptional. Guitar music in church has been a big stumbling block for a lot of faithful Catholics because it cheapens the liturgy by associating it with entertainment music. I’m sorry if I offended you here, I really didn’t mean to denigrate your good intentions.

I agree with the others that the thread is not about playing guitar per se.

What would be your argument had the OP asked about playing the pipe organ in your church, for example?

 

[Old_Sarum]

Like I said in my original post, and afterwards, it promotes the idea of indifferentism to have a non-Catholic being given a role in the liturgy of the Church. It causes scandal. It’s as if to say that it’s ok that this person is not Catholic. It’s not ok because that person’s soul is in severe danger.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Hey now, there’s no reason to be rude, friend.

A non-Catholic cannot be the cantor or serve in the choir because these are clerical positions to an extent.

My understanding is that choir is, liturgically, no different from the congregation - they are not lectors or acolytes (which were once clerical positions), they are members of the congregation performing a service to the others in attendance. But this was from a discussion over 10 years ago in my past life as a Catholic and may be subject to errors in memory.

 

[otjm]

But you did say that your motivation was to spend time with your daughter. That is the social reason I was pointing out. What other reason other than social time with your daughter would you do this?

Halloween and All saints day are not the same. But I think you knew that.

To reduce spending time with a daughter as “social time” is beyond the pale. Parenting is not “social time”. Trying to have a positive impact on your child is not “social time”.

I would presume that you have never been divorced, and have not had the “privilege” of having your time with your child limited to a few hours a month.

The OP was up front and honest with his motivation. It should not take a Ph.D. in psychology or an M.D. in psychiatry to understand that two of the very basic formative relationships for children are between father and daughter and between mother and son.

All too many fathers who want to parent their children positively find that the emotional pain of separation from those children are almost more than they can bear - and some find they cannot bear it, and end up spending little or no time at all. Men in particular are poor at how to handle such pain. I would suggest the OP is doing the very best he can.

Unless and until you have been separated from your children and reduced to maybe 96 hours a month with them, and “walked in those moccasins”, please do not be dismissive of a dad who wants to spend as much time as possible with his daughter by characterizing it as “social time”. I can’t even begin to articulate how dismissive those comments are.

And lest you think I do not know whereof I speak, I have represented those dads in post divorce hearings.

 

[otjm]

No, it’s the authoritative opinion of the Church to which I submit. It’s a magisterial teaching. I’m sure the celebrate in song book has some lovely tunes in it, but a guitar is simply not worthy of being used in the liturgy. Outside of that context it is fine. I personally like folk music, and would love to find more Christian folk.

Hey now, there’s no reason to be rude, friend. I expressed my thoughts on this as you asked. A guitar being played in the context of the liturgy is not appropriate, and so it is one of the issues with a non-Catholic playing guitar for Mass. The other issue I brought up was the scandal it would cause having a non-believer being given a prominent role in the liturgy. It promotes indifferentism.

I think it’s very kind to offer to play an instrument for the Church, but the instrument is not appropriate because of its association with secular music. Sacred music has to be something more. It has to be exceptional. Guitar music in church has been a big stumbling block for a lot of faithful Catholics because it cheapens the liturgy by associating it with entertainment music. I’m sorry if I offended you here, I really didn’t mean to denigrate your good intentions.

It may very well be your opinion that the guitar is not appropriate. However, the Magisterium - and by this, I include Paul 6th, John Paul 1; John Paul 2, Benedict 16 and Francis - has known that the guitar has been and is being used in Masses on at the minimum a weekly basis. If the Magisterium in 50 years does not say it is inappropriate, then you should simply say “in my opinion”. And if done as most seem to do it, the guitar player is not “prominent” to anyone, except perhaps those who don’t like guitar playing, and thus focus on the player. The rest pretty much don’t notice the player any more than they notice an organist or any other instrumentalist.

 

[otjm]

If you believe you have found the truth, and it is that Christianity is false, I can totally understand your wanting to teach this to your daughter. However it makes it totally inappropriate for you to play at Mass.

I have been thinking about this. I think that, given that you would prefer your daughter not be a Christian, it would be wrong for you to join her at Mass. It feels like undermining your wife’s commitment to raise her Catholic. It would also be either a tiny bit dishonest (if you don’t tell the others at the parish that you would prefer your daughter not be a Christian) or undermining for possibly other children in the choir (if you do tell them).

I think that Mass is the one time you should probably not accompany your daughter. I think that the parents of other children in the choir have a right to expect that their children will not be exposed, at Mass (and other Church-related activities, like rehearsals), to non-Christian ideas. And how could you not express non-Christian ideas without lying? And your participation in musical lies (to you) is not a good example to anyone.

If you want to go to Mass (and this would be great!!), you should go to another Mass where you wouldn’t be sending mixed messages to your daughter. And in any case it just doesn’t make sense to have a non-Christian helping to lead the music.

Sorry, it’s just been on my mind. Frankly, my primary concern isn’t what’s best for you, I think the important thing here is what is best for your daughter. I really don’t think you playing for Mass would be best for her. However I can see why you, who must want your daughter to be a non-Christian when she grows up (since you think Christianity is false), may have different ideas about what is best for her. But the fact that your aims for her are completely opposite of the purpose of going to Mass is the reason it would not really be 100% ethical for you to do this.

Of course, I must include the standard caveat: “I may be wrong.”

–Jen

Reading what is written instead of what one wishes to interpret it as, is an important key to dialogue.

The OP used the word “Truth”, and you have jumped from that word to presuming that he wants to teach his daughter that Christianity is false. He did not say that.

It is possible he meant that; and it is possible that he used “Truth” as the Catholic Church uses it, and in particular where the Catholic Church speaks of other religions than Christianity. He did say, after all, that he had been Catholic, and it is entirely possible that he he uses the term in the same meaning as the Church uses it.

This thread is not about what he intends or does not intend to teach his daughter - and his playing guitar in Mass is the issue. Further, whether he plays guitar in Mass or not, he is going to have time with his child. As the subject is his playing in Mass, perhaps we could stick with that instead of presuming that he is out to undermine the child’s beliefs? I have known atheists who do a better job of teaching their children to live morally than any number of Catholics I know who go to Mass weekly.

 

[eViLpOpTaRt]

The Truth’s expressed by Saint Pius X are not limited to a particular century. Truth is objective and therefore not bound to time.

The USCCB’s document does not say that the use of guitars is acceptable. It does reference stringed instruments though.

Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy and dean of theology at the Regina Apostolorum university has this to say on the matter:

He is repeating the teaching of Pope Saint Pius X. Guitars are just not for sacred music, because they’re for pop songs and are associated with secular music.

Maybe Fr. McNamara needs to loosen up and not be so rigid! He must be fun at parties!:

 

[Old_Sarum]

It may very well be your opinion that the guitar is not appropriate. However, the Magisterium - and by this, I include Paul 6th, John Paul 1; John Paul 2, Benedict 16 and Francis - has known that the guitar has been and is being used in Masses on at the minimum a weekly basis. If the Magisterium in 50 years does not say it is inappropriate, then you should simply say “in my opinion”.

It is not my opinion at all. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that secular instruments and music is inappropriate. People who want to use guitars at Mass are being selfish and disrespectful (now that is my opinion), because they want to turn the Holy Sacrifice of The Mass into a party.

Just because popes have not repeated that it is not appropriate, does not mean that it is suddenly ok. Popes have never mentioned a lot of bad things, does their omission mean they condone them? Of course not.lol