Non Christian Playing Guitar in Mass

[cheese_sdc]

All too many fathers who want to parent their children positively find that the emotional pain of separation from those children are almost more than they can bear

One of the things that surprised me during the divorce process was how easy it was to transfer my negative feelings toward my wife onto my daughter. Fortunately for me, I was able to identify what was going on in my emotional life and sort that out before I made some really, really stupid choices.

I was mad at my ex-wife, and didn’t want anything to do with her, and my daughter is so very much like her… I started to contemplate just giving up and moving across the country. Once I realized that I transferring my negativity for my ex onto my daughter, I was able to make better choices.

Just a little tidbit of my experience that you may be able to share with your clients. Being a divorced father isn’t easy - the range of emotions I experienced was crippling at times.

 

[cheese_sdc]

It is not my opinion at all. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that secular instruments and music is inappropriate. People who want to use guitars at Mass are being selfish and disrespectful (now that is my opinion), because they want to turn the Holy Sacrifice of The Mass into a party.

Just because popes have not repeated that it is not appropriate, does not mean that it is suddenly ok. Popes have never mentioned a lot of bad things, does their omission mean they condone them? Of course not.lol

Troller! No trolling!

Troller! No trolling!

Troller! No trolling!

 

[Even_Keal]

This would be a great idea for you to play. As a solidly agnostic youth, I decided to be a guitar player in the choir at the Catholic Church I was raised in…really just to “hone my chops”

I learned that several of the choir members were gay. The music minister who conducted our choir, all the passion plays, variety shows, etc., after hours would go and conduct the areas Gay Mans Choir.

I learned that it’s a myth that the Catholic Church does not “accept” non-Catholics into their celebration. A non-tolerant Church makes for great sensationalized news stories that get lot’s of clicks and sells papers.

I look back on those days in that choir as an agnostic, I also learned that the Holy Spirit truly was guiding me back home in a way that was tailored just for me. Through music.

I also learned to love and respect those with same-sex attraction and realize the wonderful contributions that they can bring to the Church LONG before today’s obsession with the “gay lifestyle” and the Church’s “barbaric opposition” to it.

I will warn you, I never would have believed it back then, but I am now solidly Catholic. I believe that Jesus is Divine, I believe there is one God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I started off just wanting to be cool, and somehow I ended up Catholic!

I hope you decide to join the choir. Just be prepared and open yourself up to the possibility that the Holy Spirit may also be working through you right now by just calling you to share your talents with the Church through the love you have for your daughter. I pray that’s the case.

Keep us posted on your decision!

Peace!

 

[dconklin]

I hope you decide to join the choir. Just be prepared and open yourself up to the possibility that the Holy Spirit may also be working through you right now by just calling you to share your talents with the Church through the love you have for your daughter. I pray that’s the case.

After reading through all of the posts I was left with the same sentiments. We need more cool (and intelligent) dads in the Catholic Church.

 

[Generic_Name]

What are your thoughts on the following:

A non-Christian playing guitar for a Catholic choir, for Mass?

My daughter is in Children’s Choir (my ex-wife is Catholic, and my daughter is being raised Catholic). I’m UU, and decidedly non-Christian (considering joining a druid’s circle), but I’d like to volunteer to play guitar for the choir as means to have shared activity with my daughter.

Just curious as to your thoughts.

Well, I don’t encourage guitars at Mass, but I would say it couldn’t hurt to attend Mass with your daughter now and then.

 

[VAC]

My Jewish husband started coming to mass with me to help with our children when they were small so I could play and sing in the choir. I now lead a small group at an early morning mass and he is now my soundman. He recites the creed and all the prayers. He considers himself Catholic, but has not yet taken the steps to make it official. All this with no pressure or coercion from me. When we got married we agreed never to ask each other to convert. I say if the spirit leads and no one objects…then why not?

 

[revert_jen]

Reading what is written instead of what one wishes to interpret it as, is an important key to dialogue.

The OP used the word “Truth”, and you have jumped from that word to presuming that he wants to teach his daughter that Christianity is false. He did not say that.

I think he did. Being able to understand intended implications is also an important key to dialogue.

I am quite comfortable to be judged for teaching my daughter the Truth as best I understand It.

I don’t believe in the Christian God, and I don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus.

If the OP loves his daughter, and I’m sure he does, he wouldn’t want her to live her life based on a lie. I don’t in any way find fault with that. If Christianity were a lie, I wouldn’t want my worst enemy to live his life for an imaginary God, much less anyone I loved. Truth is important.

No blame to the OP, but I just think that Mass is the wrong place for that dynamic to be taking place. Also (again because truth is important), I think standing in public and leading people in songs that are strictly contrary to what one believes isn’t a good idea. The Mass isn’t a concert. The music should be a prayer. That’s why Protestants are fine in the music ministries and non-Christians are not.

There’s no problem with anyone attending Mass. All are welcome and encouraged to attend. Leading the congregation in worship is something else.

Anyway, that’s all I had to say and I’ve said it like three times (sorry, folks), so I’m done.

May the God in Whom the OP doesn’t believe guide him to the right decision, whatever that may be (which God knows for sure and I do not).

–Jen

 

[cheese_sdc]

If the OP loves his daughter, and I’m sure he does, he wouldn’t want her to live her life based on a lie. I don’t in any way find fault with that. If Christianity were a lie, I wouldn’t want my worst enemy to live his life for an imaginary God, much less anyone I loved. Truth is important

My personal theology/philosophy is beyond the scope of this thread, but I will say this - is far more complex than merely “I don’t believe in the Christian God”.

Your own documents point to a deep understanding of the nature of the Divine in the world.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. …] Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing “ways,” comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men.

 

[El_PAso]

Interesting question,

Short answer please no guitars at Mass! I cringe when I visit a Church that has a band. Never a good thing as they insist on contemporary music and ignore a canon of incredible music and song that

I imagine the OP has played in bands and understand the commitment to the other musicians and the audience. Playing at Mass even if it doesn’t pay much or anything is MUCH more important. Perhaps not to the OP but to the congregation.

All I know is you could not pay me enough to sit through a lutheran or other protestant service! I don’t care whose attending. I’ve been there and done that as the OP said.

Can the OP commit for the long haul for the good of the Church or is this a fad?

No firm answer just food for thought.

EP

 

[cheese_sdc]

Interesting question,

Short answer please no guitars at Mass!

I’m starting to get really irritated with all the “no guitars at mass” crowd. You live in the 21st century now.

Playing at Mass even if it doesn’t pay much or anything is MUCH more important. Perhaps not to the OP but to the congregation.

I suppose in your rush to post your “no guitars at Mass herpa derp” comment, you neglected to read this:

all I can say is that I do respect the sacredness of the space. You are correct, Mass isn’t a social event, and I don’t plan on playing as if it were.

All I know is you could not pay me enough to sit through a lutheran or other protestant service! I don’t care whose attending. I’ve been there and done that as the OP said.

It’s a good thing no one is offering that you do that then.

Can the OP commit for the long haul for the good of the Church or is this a fad?

I will continue as long as I deem it appropriate to continue.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Thanks to all those that posted honest thoughts and encouragement, and thanks to those that raised questions and challenges.

It is very difficult for me to play at Mass, but I believe it is something that is worthwhile, for the sake of my daughter. I played this past Sunday, and will give it at least one more go. As I said before, I’ve learned to sit with my negative emotions and try to see what it can teach me. I will do the same here.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

OF course I am not divorced.

My wife and I are blessed and have a Holy marraige.

I am a stay at home dad. I am with my children 24/7. So I know a little about father daughter time…

I am wondering if the OPs crisis of faith here will persuade and impact the daughter.

It seems to me that it could be likely that the OP is struggling with some heavy issues personally and is a little lost in life (spiritually speaking) I personally think the OP finds the excuse for “daughter time” to be used for the avoidance of a bigger issue.

BTW I am not sure what the point of your post was.

 

[Cromwell4]

Wow, It looks like you met an awful lot of Pharisees along the way & you only wanted to strum a guitar for Jesus.

Wonder what He would say/do? Shut the door? or holler ’ Come on in and join the Party.’
Jesus calls folk in different ways. Forget the nay-sayers - Go to the Party. Jesus has invited you & after all it is his (Supper) Party.

Wonder what happened to all the Joy Christians used to share?

Go for it. You’ll enjoy it immensely & so will everyone else…
…( except the Pharisees LOL!!!)

Then come back & tell us how it was.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Wow, It looks like you met an awful lot of Pharisees along the way & you only wanted to strum a guitar for Jesus.

Wonder what He would say/do? Shut the door? or holler ’ Come on in and join the Party.’
Jesus calls folk in different ways. Forget the nay-sayers - Go to the Party. Jesus has invited you & after all it is his (Supper) Party.

Wonder what happened to all the Joy Christians used to share?

Go for it. You’ll enjoy it immensely & so will everyone else…
…( except the Pharisees LOL!!!)

Then come back & tell us how it was.

I am not sure you read the thread.

1. The OP does not want to “play the guitar for Jesus” I think even the OP would disagree with that motivation.
2. Most people on this thread have expressed opinions however it has been a good thread. Not Pharassee like at all. Just differing opinions? Why is that a bad thing?
3. Jesus would not say “come join the party.” As Catholics we believe that Mass is a sacrifice. Jesus would invite us to the foot of the Cross and we can certainly be there. But we too must realize what that means. It is not a “party” and that people think it is a meal, dinner, or a party is a HUGE disconnect we have neglected to address as Catholics in our faith life, our Catechisis, and our own lives. We too will be crucified but at Mass, it is God himself offering His Broken Body and His Spilled Blood to us all.

The Mass is an unbloody sacrifice. Not a party.

Here is a good article on that.

newadvent.org/cathen/10006a.htm

 

[cheese_sdc]

My wife and I are blessed and have a Holy marriage.

I had one of those too.

It seems to me that it could be likely that the OP is struggling with some heavy issues personally

Of course. Who isn’t?

and is a little lost in life (spiritually speaking) I personally think the OP finds the excuse for “daughter time” to be used for the avoidance of a bigger issue.

I would think that a stay at home dad would understand that shared activities with children is a big issue.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I had one of those too.

Of course. Who isn’t?



I would think that a stay at home dad would understand that shared activities with children is a big issue.

I know there is a rolleyes and a shrug there but don’t you think this is an odd thing to just say that it is father daughter time? There is something more going on here. You may not want to hash all that out on this thread and that is probably wise, but a man like you? With a change of faith, and a divorce, and some religious interests and philosophical mind you have, it is a discredit yourself if you don’t see other motivations here. I am not a mind reader or a psychologist but logically I think I see some conflictions and emotions in your posts. If it were as simple as “I don’t believe, I just like to pick at the ole strings” I don’t think you would even bother posting the question.

Of course. Who isn’t?

Me

I had one of those too.

I don’t doubt that you believed that.

My wife and I just got back from taking the kids 2000 miles and 5 states to Disneyworld. 4 kids, 1 preggers 16 strait hours in a car. (talk about smells!) Every time we do this, every time we are put into a stressor. We are completely in synch. We grow closer. We listen to podcasts of our faith, stop them, and discuss them. As a homeschooling stay at home dad we have some interesting dynamics in our family, but we are strong in our faith, and in that faith we draw our Love for each other. Though it is hard to hear I am sure. Divorce is not something that strikes like a tornado with no warning. It is something that is entered into by two legal aged adults. Just like a marriage.

But back to the topic at hand…

You mentioned a few posts back that it was hard to play at the Mass. Could you explain what you mean by that?

 

[cheese_sdc]

It seems to me that it could be likely that the OP is struggling with some heavy issues personally

Of course. Who isn’t?

Me

Wow. Just wow.

I think I’m done talking with you.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Wow. Just wow.

I think I’m done talking with you.

I am sorry that you took offense to that. I did not mean it that way.

I meant that not everyone is struggling with big issues right now. I know I am not. And I meant it to be helpful by pointing out that it is not a normal state of life to have big issues to struggle with and that it will get better.

Thats all.

I am sorry.

 

[otjm]

I am sorry that you took offense to that. I did not mean it that way.

I meant that not everyone is struggling with big issues right now. I know I am not. And I meant it to be helpful by pointing out that it is not a normal state of life to have big issues to struggle with and that it will get better.

Thats all.

I am sorry.

I waded in before, and have sat on the sidelines. Sorry, but I have to agree with the OP, that some of your comments have been offensive.

I will say it again - if you have not walked a mile in his moccasins (as you have said you are not divorced), then perhaps you should go a bit easy in telling him how his moccasins fit. I don’t know what “bigger issue” you think is on the OP’s mind (or should be) and that he is not addressing.

Having represented too many people in custody issues, I can guarantee that the OP is singing the same tune as my clients - they miss the daylights out of their children, and want to know if doing “X” when they do not have visitation rights at that specific moment is OK, Examples often include going to a church service where the child will be present with the other parent, going to a school recital when not having visitation at the same time, attending a sporting event the child is playing in when not during visitation… the list goes on.

One does not have to psychoanalyze the non-custodial parent about “other issues” being avoided. They want to see their child - a concept that any parent should be able to grasp, but which a non-divorced parent never has to struggle with - no judge has told you that you can only see your child for 48 hours twice a month.

This was not a particularly complex question. It was not about whether or not his lack of belief should bar him from playing. And to those who responded in that vein, I would point out that I have heard the Mormon Tabernacle Choir do beautiful choral work on Catholic music. I attended a parish for a number of years before I found out that the piano player was a Baptist. It never impacted his playing - he was very professional.

This was also not about the disparity of his beliefs and his daughter’s - guess what - Mass or no Mass, their beliefs are different. and if he has an ounce of wisdom, he will know that whatever he says is going to make it back to her mother as fast as she can get there, and he will act accordingly. And even if he does not use caution because of her mother, I would suspect this is a dad who respects his daughter enough that he is not going to start picking her beliefs apart. And the thread was not about that anyway.

The essence of this thread is that he misses his daughter and wants whatever little amount of time with her that he can add beyond the minimalist 48 hours twice a month. Not “other issues”, not disparity of cult, not whether a legitimate musician who is not Catholic can play music at Mass. He does not need pseudo psychological analysis about issues he is not confronting. He needs empathy, which is markedly missing.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I waded in before, and have sat on the sidelines. Sorry, but I have to agree with the OP, that some of your comments have been offensive.

I will say it again - if you have not walked a mile in his moccasins (as you have said you are not divorced), then perhaps you should go a bit easy in telling him how his moccasins fit. I don’t know what “bigger issue” you think is on the OP’s mind (or should be) and that he is not addressing.

Having represented too many people in custody issues, I can guarantee that the OP is singing the same tune as my clients - they miss the daylights out of their children, and want to know if doing “X” when they do not have visitation rights at that specific moment is OK, Examples often include going to a church service where the child will be present with the other parent, going to a school recital when not having visitation at the same time, attending a sporting event the child is playing in when not during visitation… the list goes on.

One does not have to psychoanalyze the non-custodial parent about “other issues” being avoided. They want to see their child - a concept that any parent should be able to grasp, but which a non-divorced parent never has to struggle with - no judge has told you that you can only see your child for 48 hours twice a month.

This was not a particularly complex question. It was not about whether or not his lack of belief should bar him from playing. And to those who responded in that vein, I would point out that I have heard the Mormon Tabernacle Choir do beautiful choral work on Catholic music. I attended a parish for a number of years before I found out that the piano player was a Baptist. It never impacted his playing - he was very professional.

This was also not about the disparity of his beliefs and his daughter’s - guess what - Mass or no Mass, their beliefs are different. and if he has an ounce of wisdom, he will know that whatever he says is going to make it back to her mother as fast as she can get there, and he will act accordingly. And even if he does not use caution because of her mother, I would suspect this is a dad who respects his daughter enough that he is not going to start picking her beliefs apart. And the thread was not about that anyway.

The essence of this thread is that he misses his daughter and wants whatever little amount of time with her that he can add beyond the minimalist 48 hours twice a month. Not “other issues”, not disparity of cult, not whether a legitimate musician who is not Catholic can play music at Mass. He does not need pseudo psychological analysis about issues he is not confronting. He needs empathy, which is markedly missing.

Of course I disagree with you. But as you pointed out this is way off the subject.

No need to pile on and add your say when I backed off and apologized. It is not really intellectualy honest because I am backing off of the OPs situation.

I don’t think the OP should play music that expresses something he thinks is a lie and does so in front of his daughter.

I’m sorry but I don’t think one needs to walk a mile in a divorcees shoes to understand the problem. I know you are passionate about this and have represented and seen the absolute destruction and pain of divorce. That does not mean that no one else can have an opinion or that one must walk a mile in a divorcees shoes. That is not a logical or debatable point.