Non-Christians - would a miraculous experience convert you?

[samiam1611]

I came across this story:

Paul was known as Saul prior to his conversion, and was dedicated to the persecution of the early disciples of Jesus in the area of Jerusalem. While traveling from Jerusalem to Damascus on a mission to “bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem”, the resurrected Jesus appeared to him in a great light. Saul was struck blind, but after three days his sight was restored by Ananias of Damascus, and Paul began to preach that Jesus of Nazareth is the Jewish Messiah and the Son of God.

source

And as he journeyed, it came to pass that he drew nigh unto Damascus: and suddenly there shone round about him a light out of heaven: and he fell upon the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: but rise, and enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. And the men that journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing the voice, but beholding no man. And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw nothing; and they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and did neither eat nor drink.

-Acts 9:3–9

I was wondering how any of you non-Christians, including my fellow atheists, would react if you experienced something like that.

Paul describes Jesus as
-having been promised by God “beforehand” through his prophets in the holy Scriptures
-being the Son of God
-having biological lineage from David
-having been declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead
-being Jesus Christ our Lord
-the One through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, “including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.”

I don’t understand how having a vision of Jesus would necessarily lead to all that in just 3 days. I mean I just can’t picture myself having a conversation with a blinding light and then going around saying that stuff. What sort of experience or evidence would you need to convert?

 

[prodigalson2011]

Sorry, I cheated.
I’m not a non-Christian, but I was an atheist until very recently, and some miraculous hints and events accompanied some very desperate prayer, and that was enough to convert me, so I’d have to imagine a vision of Jesus would have sent me running to a confessional.

 

[Kouyate42]

I can’t say for certain I’ve experienced miracles, but I’ve certainly experienced the divine, which in its own turn has served to guide me back into serious study and consideration of Christianity.

 

[prodigalson2011]

I can’t say for certain I’ve experienced miracles, but I’ve certainly experienced the divine, which in its own turn has served to guide me back into serious study and consideration of Christianity.

I guess what I called “miraculous hints and events” were more like divine providence. A prolonged series of events, from the trivial to the profound, which I can only describe as seeming tailored to bring me a) back to Christ and b) back to the Catholic Church.

 

[Lokabrenna]

I suppose it would depend on the nature of the vision, and I would have to be the one to have the experience, of course, religious experiences are so personal that (to a certain degree) I just can’t take someone else’s word for it when it comes to such things.

 

[Hokomai]

I would re-think many of my conclusions if there were to be actual miracles resulting from the invocation of God. I would classify as a miracle something like an amputated leg re-growing, a decayed corpse resurrecting, five loaves and five fishes feeding a multitude, the sudden reappearance of a breeding population of Tyrannosaurus Rex (although I would be picky about the time and place), an instant cure of all with AIDS, with no change to the viruses, and so on. I would not be impressed by a newspaper article about what people saw after looking at the sun, spontaneous remission of cancer (which is a regular occurrence), temporary improvement in conditions with variable symptoms, anything to do with self-reported experience of pain, or improved flexibility of joints. I am always amazed at the things people are ready to classify as miracles. If there is a God, and he wanted to communicate by miracles, I am confident he would do something impressive.

 

[Sufjon]

I came across this story:

source

-Acts 9:3–9

I was wondering how any of you non-Christians, including my fellow atheists, would react if you experienced something like that.

I don’t understand how having a vision of Jesus would necessarily lead to all that in just 3 days. I mean I just can’t picture myself having a conversation with a blinding light and then going around saying that stuff. What sort of experience or evidence would you need to convert?

Hi SamIam - good to hear from you again and I still love your Dog. If God manifest Himself to me in the form envisioned by a particular religion, I would live the experience to the fullest, with the understanding that it was only one sort of manifestation among the countless manifestations of God throughout the vastness of our own world and throughout the cosmos. My faith tradition allows for Christianity to exist as a particular cultural experience of God within the context of a much broader fabric into which human and other sentient experience is enmeshed. But ultimately it all emanates from one source, which is the all pervasive consciousness that is also referred to and manifest as Jesus, Krishna or whatever form he reveals Himself to you. In my religion alone, there are 108 names for God, each making an account of some aspect among the endless expressed in His being. In other words, it would be a welcome event, yet not cause to convert from one thing to another, since for me the Christian experience is but one accepted facet among many. I would see it as a Christ experience, knowing that there are many other permutations of the same. In short, I could not be converted, because He is already present in everything.

Your friend
Sufjon

PS: 108 names for the one God, as follows:

Achala
Still Lord

Achyuta
Infallible Lord

Adbhutah
Wonderful God

Adidev
The Lord Of The Lords

Aditya
The Son Of Aditi

Ajanma
One Who Is Limitless And Endless

Ajaya
The Conqueror Of Life And Death

Akshara
Indestructible Lord

Amrut
One Who Is Sweet As Nectar

Anaadih
One Who Is The First Cause

Anandsagar
Compassionate Lord

Ananta
The Endless Lord

Anantajit
Ever Victorious Lord

Anaya
One Who Has No Leader

Aniruddha
One Who Cannot Be Obstructed

Aparajeet
The Lord Who Cannot Be Defeated

Avyukta
One Who Is As Clear As Crystal

Balgopal
The Child Krishna, The All Attractive

Bali
The Lord Of Strength

Chaturbhuj
Four-Armed Lord

Danavendra
Granter Of Boons

Dayalu
Repositiory Of Compassion

Dayanidhi
The Compassionate Lord

Devadidev
The God Of The Gods

Devakinandan
Son Of Mother Devaki

Devesh
Lord Of The Lords

Dharmadhyaksha
The Lord OF Dharma

Dwarkapati
Lord Of Dwarka

Gopal
One Who Plays With The Cowherds, The Gopas

Gopalpriya
Lover Of Cowherds

Govinda
One Who Pleases The Cows, The Land And The Entire Nature

Gyaneshwar
The Lord Of Knowledge

Hari
The Lord Of Nature

Hiranyagarbha
The All Powerful Creator

Hrishikesh
The Lord Of All Senses

Jagadguru
Preceptor Of The Universe

Jagadisha
Protector Of All

Jagannath
Lord Of The Universe

Janardhana
One Who Bestows Boons On One And All

Jayantah
Conqueror Of All Enemies

Jyotiraaditya
The Resplendence Of The Sun

Kamalnath
The Lord Of Goddess Lakshmi

Kamalnayan
The Lord With Lotus Shaped Eyes

Kamsantak
Slayer Of Kamsa

Kanjalochana
The Lotus-Eyed God

Keshava
One Who Has Long, Black Matted Locks

Krishna
Dark-Complexioned Lord

Lakshmikantam
The Lord Of Goddess Lakshmi

Lokadhyaksha
Lord Of All The Three Lokas (Worlds)

Madan
The Lord Of Love

Madhava
Knowledge Filled God

Madhusudan
Slayer Of Demon Madhu

Mahendra
Lord Of Indra

Manmohan
All Pleasing Lord

Manohar
Beautiful Lord

Mayur
The Lord Who Has A Peacock Feathered-Crest

Mohan
All Attractive God

Murali
The Flute Playing Lord

Murlidhar
One Who Holds The Flute

Murlimanohar
The Flute Playing God

Nandgopala
The Son Of Nand

Narayana
The Refuge Of Everyone

Niranjana
The Unblemished Lord

Nirguna
Without Any Properties

Padmahasta
One Who Has Hands Like Lotus

Padmanabha
The Lord Who Has A Lotus Shaped Navel

Parabrahmana
The Supreme Absolute Truth

Paramatma
Lord Of All Beings

Parampurush
Supreme Personality

Parthasarthi
Charioteer Of Partha - Arjuna

Prajapati
Lord Of All Creatures

Punyah
Supremely Pure

Purshottam
The Supreme Soul

Ravilochana
One Who Eye Is The Sun

Sahasraakash
Thousand-Eyed Lord

Sahasrajit
One Who Vanquishes Thousands

Sahasrapaat
Thousand-Footed Lord

Sakshi
All Witnessing Lord

Sanatana
The Eternal Lord

Sarvajana
Omniscient Lord

Sarvapalaka
Protector Of All

Sarveshwar
Lord Of All Gods

Satyavachana
One Who Speaks Only The Truth

Satyavrata
The Truth Dedicated Lord

Shantah
Peaceful Lord

Shreshta
The Most Glorious Lord

Shrikanta
Beautiful Lord

Shyam
Dark-Complexioned Lord

Shyamsundara
Lord Of The Beautiful Evenings

Sudarshana
Handsome Lord

Sumedha
Intelligent Lord

Suresham
Lord Of All Demi-Gods

Swargapati
Lord Of Heavens

Trivikrama
Conqueror Of All The Three Worlds

Upendra
Brother Of Indra

Vaikunthanatha
Lord Of Vaikuntha, The Heavenly Abode

Vardhamaanah
The Formless Lord

Vasudev
All Prevailing Lord

Vishnu
All Prevailing Lord

Vishwadakshinah
Skilfull And Efficient Lord

Vishwakarma
Creator Of The Universe

Vishwamurti
Of The Form Of The Entire Universe

Vishwarupa
One Who Displays The Universal Form

Vishwatma
Soul Of The Universe

Vrishaparvaa
Lord Of Dharma

Yadavendra
King Of The Yadav Clan

Yogi
The Supreme Master

Yoginampati
Lord Of The Yogis

 

[Geist]

I was wondering how any of you non-Christians, including my fellow atheists, would react if you experienced something like that.

Now, I was a lifelong atheist, even as a child I thought it was stupid to pray to thin air. When I was in my late 20’s, a problem came up, my wife, ever the Catholic, jokingly suggested I pray (she never thought I would)…well, I did. And it was answered.

The thing is, so many variables had to fall into oh so many places at the right times for my prayer to be answered. Thus I couldn’t chalk it up to coincidence.

Here’s the meat of the thing; I then sat down and pondered my life (I’m a highly rational person), and realized I had a “helping hand” for alot of it…so many “lucky” breaks. Too many. I really should be dead or bankrupt a few times over. Instead I thrived under adversity and risks.

This is when it dawned on me I alone was not responsible for my own successes, but I had help. The fact I came to God (God came to me? Both?) via a process I was comfortable with…thinking, made it comfortable to realize I was wrong.

Had I some mystical experience with angels and celestial music I’d have not gone to a priest but to a neurologist because I would have thought I was having a stroke. Would have been too foreign to me.

I think the Divine has a way of knowing us, and how best to handle us and uses it accordingly.

 

[prodigalson2011]

I think the Divine has a way of knowing us, and how best to handle us and uses it accordingly.

This is so true. My experience worked with some of my personal… “idiosyncracies” so well, it was even more emotionally overwhelming. It was like God was saying, “See how well I know you?”

 

[samiam1611]

Thank you everyone for your responses so far. (I hope more people will respond too!)

Sorry, I cheated.
I’m not a non-Christian, but I was an atheist until very recently, and some miraculous hints and events accompanied some very desperate prayer, and that was enough to convert me, so I’d have to imagine a vision of Jesus would have sent me running to a confessional.

Oh that’s okay, a former non-Christian can vote too.

Had I some mystical experience with angels and celestial music I’d have not gone to a priest but to a neurologist because I would have thought I was having a stroke. Would have been too foreign to me.

Since Paul, a very important guy to Christianity I think, had the type of experience that would send many of us to a neurologist, does that make you question that story and others like it? If you would not believe that kind of experience even if you had it yourself, how can you believe the stories written in the bible? (If you do.)

I am always amazed at the things people are ready to classify as miracles. If there is a God, and he wanted to communicate by miracles, I am confident he would do something impressive.

My skepticism runs deep - if Geist is right, and “the Divine has a way of knowing us, and how best to handle us and uses it accordingly,” the world is in for some spectacular miracles, cuz that’s all I will accept!

Hi SamIam - good to hear from you again and I still love your Dog. If God manifest Himself to me in the form envisioned by a particular religion, I would live the experience to the fullest, with the understanding that it was only one sort of manifestation among the countless manifestations of God throughout the vastness of our own world and throughout the cosmos. My faith tradition allows for Christianity to exist as a particular cultural experience of God within the context of a much broader fabric into which human and other sentient experience is enmeshed. But ultimately it all emanates from one source, which is the all pervasive consciousness that is also referred to and manifest as Jesus, Krishna or whatever form he reveals Himself to you. In my religion alone, there are 108 names for God, each making an account of some aspect among the endless expressed in His being. In other words, it would be a welcome event, yet not cause to convert from one thing to another, since for me the Christian experience is but one accepted facet among many. I would see it as a Christ experience, knowing that there are many other permutations of the same. In short, I could not be converted, because He is already present in everything.

Interesting answer! It sounds like your religion (Hindu?) is pretty flexible!

 

[Sam_777]

"yes definitely".

 

[hamba2han]

Do people who are looking for miracles realize that life itself is a miracle?

In fact, I am hard-pressed to think of a greater miracle than life.

I see more proof of the existence of a Creator in just one episode of ‘Animal Planet’ than I do in all the scriptures of the world combined.

But alas, the fact there there are many, many atheists in the world just goes to show that the miracle of life is not enough to convince those whose hearts will not accept the Truth which comes only from their Creator.

And so, the answer to the question of the thread is that it would take a far greater “miracle” than life for me to even consider converting… and BTW, visions are really not reliable indicators of miracles.

 

[Geist]

Since Paul, a very important guy to Christianity I think, had the type of experience that would send many of us to a neurologist, does that make you question that story and others like it? If you would not believe that kind of experience even if you had it yourself, how can you believe the stories written in the bible? (If you do.)

Paul and I are two different people. Had he my experience, he may have dismissed it as a passing thought. If I were struck blind and heard a voice, I’d think medical emergency.

Two very different people in two very different times having a different experience with the same conclusion isn’t really all that odd.

My skepticism runs deep - if Geist is right, and “the Divine has a way of knowing us, and how best to handle us and uses it accordingly,” the world is in for some spectacular miracles, cuz that’s all I will accept!

Travel a bit, get into astronomy, study a bit of biology, you’ll see all kinds of spectacular miracles.

 

[Incomplete]

Since Paul, a very important guy to Christianity I think, had the type of experience that would send many of us to a neurologist, does that make you question that story and others like it? If you would not believe that kind of experience even if you had it yourself, how can you believe the stories written in the bible? (If you do.)

I can believe because those particular experiences were one-time, and he didn’t seem to write or act after it like he had a stroke or other neurological disturbance. People who knew him obviously trusted what he said. That’s why he ended up an important guy in Christianity.

 

[samiam1611]

I can believe because those particular experiences were one-time, and he didn’t seem to write or act after it like he had a stroke or other neurological disturbance. People who knew him obviously trusted what he said. That’s why he ended up an important guy in Christianity.

I just don’t understand how a person could go from persecuting Christians to spreading Christianity in 3 days. He didn’t just go off to a quiet place to think for awhile. How can someone change their mind so fast? How can this story be believed? Am I missing something here?

If tomorrow, the Pope has a vision of Jesus and Jesus says to him, “You’ve got it all wrong, I told Joseph Smith the correct version.” Is the Pope going to throw the Catechism in the trash and tell everyone to pick up the Book of Mormon? And people would believe him? Just bc he had a vision? For the sake of argument let’s say other people witnessed this vision too.

How can one change one’s mind so quickly?

 

[irbatman1]

I was converted to Christianity by a miraculous experience. That miraculous experience is called regeneration. I didn’t see that option in the poll, though.

Edit- looking at it again, though, I am now noticing the “vision of Jesus” part. I’m not sure exactly what kind of vision we’re talking about here, and it seems I’m not allowed to vote in the poll anyway. It is a bit curious, though.

Edit again- now I see it was a poll for non-Christians. I thought it said non-Catholics at first. That might be why I can’t vote in it.

Sorry for being so confused here. I should read more carefully before I contribute unhelpful posts like this.

 

[Incomplete]

I just don’t understand how a person could go from persecuting Christians to spreading Christianity in 3 days. He didn’t just go off to a quiet place to think for awhile. How can someone change their mind so fast? How can this story be believed? Am I missing something here?

If tomorrow, the Pope has a vision of Jesus and Jesus says to him, “You’ve got it all wrong, I told Joseph Smith the correct version.” Is the Pope going to throw the Catechism in the trash and tell everyone to pick up the Book of Mormon? And people would believe him? Just bc he had a vision? For the sake of argument let’s say other people witnessed this vision too.

How can one change one’s mind so quickly?

I think if the Pope was absolutely convinced he had heard the voice of God, he would do as God asked. The question is whether or not he was convinced that it was God’s voice. It seems that Paul was, in fact, convinced that he heard and saw God.

And then see what happens after. Those three days you speak of, those days Paul was blind. He’s lead to Damascus, where Ananias comes to him and essentially says, “Hey Saul, God sent me here to bring your sight back.” And he sees again.

So, first Paul had a vision and heard a voice. Then he experiences a miracle. That’s quite a bit in a few days time.

I would bet Paul did some contemplating during those days in blindness. He was probably pretty stunned. And while his heart was open, I’m sure God filled him with love.

There are people who do, in fact, have such experiences, even without the miracles attached. I know a guy who was an atheist, and pretty content with his life, not looking for God, not arguing why atheism was “right”, just living his pretty normal life. One day he was at work, and had a sudden urge to leave the room (he was in a meeting, if I remember right.) He left, felt a desperate need to be alone, found a janitor’s closet.

And had a theophany. And came out of that closet a Christian.

I read the story of another guy, an atheist who mocked Christianity, mocked Catholicism in particular. He was invited to be in his Catholic friend’s wedding, but he hated Catholicism so much that he almost declined.

In the end he went. And he received Eucharist. He did this knowing Church teachings. He did it because he wanted to flaunt Church teachings.

He received…and at that moment had a theophany. It was enough to change him in an instant. The next time he received Eucharist was the day he was received into the Church.

So…I can’t say what the Pope would do. I can’t say what you would do. But I do know that people do change that quickly.

 

[littlepilgrim]

In my religion alone, there are 108 names for God, each making an account of some aspect among the endless expressed in His being.

Sufjon,
Just wondering if you had ever heard of litanies. They use all the different attributes of God to ask His forgiveness. Since God is infinite one word or name could never say everything about Him even while believing in one God.

This is the Litany of the Holy Ghost:

Lord, have mercy on us.
Christ, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Father all powerful, have mercy on us
Jesus, Eternal Son of the Father, Redeemer of the world, save us.
Spirit of the Father and the Son, boundless life of both, sanctify us.
Holy Trinity, hear us

Holy Ghost, Who proceedest from the Father and the Son, enter our hearts.
Holy Ghost, Who art equal to the Father and the Son, enter our hearts.

Promise of God the Father, have mercy on us.
Ray of heavenly light, have mercy on us
Author of all good, have mercy on us
Source of heavenly water, have mercy on us
Consuming fire, have mercy on us
Ardent charity, have mercy on us
Spiritual unction, have mercy on us
Spirit of love and truth, have mercy on us
Spirit of wisdom and understanding, have mercy on us
Spirit of counsel and fortitude, have mercy on us
Spirit of knowledge and piety, have mercy on us
Spirit of the fear of the Lord, have mercy on us
Spirit of grace and prayer, have mercy on us
Spirit of peace and meekness, have mercy on us
Spirit of modesty and innocence, have mercy on us
Holy Ghost, the Comforter, have mercy on us
Holy Ghost, the Sanctifier, have mercy on us
Holy Ghost, Who governest the Church, have mercy on us
Gift of God, the Most High, have mercy on us
Spirit Who fillest the universe, have mercy on us
Spirit of the adoption of the children of God, have mercy on us

Holy Ghost, inspire us with horror of sin.
Holy Ghost, come and renew the face of the earth.
Holy Ghost, shed Thy light in our souls.
Holy Ghost, engrave Thy law in our hearts
Holy Ghost, inflame us with the flame of Thy love.
Holy Ghost, open to us the treasures of Thy graces
Holy Ghost, teach us to pray well.
Holy Ghost, enlighten us with Thy heavenly inspirations.
Holy Ghost, lead us in the way of salvation
Holy Ghost, grant us the only necessary knowledge.
Holy Ghost, inspire in us the practice of good.
Holy Ghost, grant us the merits of all virtues.
Holy Ghost, make us persevere in justice.
Holy Ghost, be Thou our everlasting reward.

Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world, Send us Thy Holy Ghost.

Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world, pour down into our souls the gifts of the Holy Ghost.

Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world, grant us the Spirit of wisdom and piety.

V. Come, Holy Ghost! Fill the hearts of Thy faithful, R. And enkindle in them the fire of Thy love.

Let Us Pray
Grant, 0 merciful Father, that Thy Divine Spirit may enlighten, inflame and purify us, that He may penetrate us with His heavenly dew and make us fruitful in good works, through Our Lord Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Who with Thee, in the unity of the same Spirit, liveth and reigneth forever and ever. R. Amen.

 

[Tony888]

Would a vision of Jesus convert you?

I had to answer OTHER because of the question wording
Since I already believe in Jesus, there is nothing for me to convert to.
Unless you meant to add this vision of Jesus would deliver a sales pitch for the RCC?

 

[samiam1611]

I was converted to Christianity by a miraculous experience. That miraculous experience is called regeneration. I didn’t see that option in the poll, though.

Edit- looking at it again, though, I am now noticing the “vision of Jesus” part. I’m not sure exactly what kind of vision we’re talking about here, and it seems I’m not allowed to vote in the poll anyway. It is a bit curious, though.

Edit again- now I see it was a poll for non-Christians. I thought it said non-Catholics at first. That might be why I can’t vote in it.

Sorry for being so confused here. I should read more carefully before I contribute unhelpful posts like this.

You were not allowed to vote in the poll bc you’re on a “trial membership.” In a few days and a few more posts, you will be a “new member” and then you will be able to vote. In the meantime, you are welcome to respond to the thread. Also welcome to CAF.
So when you say regeneration - you mean a body part or something? That IS a miracle! (Assuming you are a human and not a really intelligent starfish or whatever )

I think if the Pope was absolutely convinced he had heard the voice of God, he would do as God asked. The question is whether or not he was convinced that it was God’s voice. It seems that Paul was, in fact, convinced that he heard and saw God.

First of all, thank you for your entire answer. If I may ask a follow-up question to this part of your resonse: If the Pope did as God asked because he was convinced it really was God’s voice, would that change your beliefs too, since he is someone you trust? (Or we can use a different example like your favorite priest, if that is someone you trust more than the pope since you know him personally.)

Would a vision of Jesus convert you?

I had to answer OTHER because of the question wording
Since I already believe in Jesus, there is nothing for me to convert to.
Unless you meant to add this vision of Jesus would deliver a sales pitch for the RCC?

I should’ve thought of that! :doh2: There’s quite a few LDS on this site. (I lump you together with Christians in my mind although I know it’s a bit more complicated than that.)
Yes a sales pitch (ha!) to another religion would be my question for you. To make it more interesting than converting to RCC, let’s say God came to you and said Tony! Jesus was a special guy but guess what - he’s not the messiah! The Jews were and are right! Forget Jesus, he doesn’t matter to your salvation.

Would you be like oh okay I better find myself a copy of the Torah ASAP. Shalom! or…?