Non confrontational question for any practicing Mormon (former mormons, please state so when posting)

[AMDGtoo]

I’ve seen the LDS foodbank where I live (it is called the bishop’s storehouse.) From what I’ve been told, it is NOT limited to LDS church members.
.

Ummm–one of my daughters is LDS while the other married into a family that is LDS, if you aren’t a member (and haven’t paid tithes plus don’t “volunteer” to work in the bishop’s storehouse) you don’t get it open to you. Of course some bishops might be more lenient than others, but as my daughter said “it’s only fair to require people to work”.

 

[StrawberryJam]

In both baptism for the dead and infant baptism, the “baptizees” haven’t made a conscience choice/decision to be baptized.

Too true. At least Catholics have confirmation, so there is a choice at some point.

Once dead, well that leaves us with a dead end there.

 

[TheosisM]

In both baptism for the dead and infant baptism, the “baptizees” haven’t made a conscience choice/decision to be baptized.

Well, this misses a number of distinctions that people that actually believe in these practices make:

With infant baptism, there is no choice for the infant obviously. The parents make the decision for them, and the effects of baptism occur. As StrawberryJam mentioned, Confirmation is where a Roman Catholic makes a conscious decision to become a “full” member of the Catholic Church (in addition to receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit).

Note that in the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches, chrismation (which is what “confirmation” is called in the East) is also given to infants. In the East, an infant is baptized, then chrismated, then receives communion. So, the issue of “choice” simply comes up later in life, where the person can choose to continue in the Church or not. However, they have already received Baptism and Confirmation/Chrismation without a choice. In the Roman Catholic church, the infant is baptized, however the person makes a conscious choice at Confirmation, since it is delayed until they are able to do so (I believe the more ancient practice of infant confirmation is found in Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy).

With proxy baptism, Mormons believe that the baptism has no effect on the dead person unless they choose for it to. This is an important part of the proxy baptism theology that is missed by many. Mormons believe that when someone is baptized “for and in behalf of” a dead person, that dead person is then given the opportunity to accept or reject the baptism.

So I hope you can see the distinction between the theologies behind infant baptism and proxy baptism. With infant baptism, the infant is baptized (with the faith of the parent(s) substituting for the faith of the infant), and the effects of the baptism occur without their consent. With proxy baptism, the live person is baptized, but the dead person is not “made Mormon” or receive the effects of the baptism unless they accept it, since they are given the choice to accept or reject the baptism.

Whether one believes that these rites actually work is another issue. I’m simply presenting how they are viewed in their respective theological frameworks.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Mormons are required to perform this rite for their own deceased relatives and ancestors, not those of others. Unless you have a family member who is a Mormon, that is unlikely to have been done. If your Dad had a close Mormon friend who wanted to do this work for him, he/she would have to ask your permission first.

Good enough for me. Thank you and have a great planet one day!

 

[Tmaque]

In both baptism for the dead and infant baptism, the “baptizees” haven’t made a conscience choice/decision to be baptized.

And they both can reject their baptism at the appropriate time. Although one could claim that Jewish infants can’t reject their circumcision, physically at least. I have no problem with LDS work for the dead. Non-LDS act as if they’ve been violated because someone performed a religious ritual on their behalf that they believe has no efficacy anyway! It’s childish and hypersensitive to worry about such things.

You can say what you want about infant baptism but it’s as old as Christianity itself because it replaced circumcision. Both, as St Paul says, are a sign and seal of the faith.

 

[Tmaque]

Ummm–one of my daughters is LDS while the other married into a family that is LDS, if you aren’t a member (and haven’t paid tithes plus don’t “volunteer” to work in the bishop’s storehouse) you don’t get it open to you. Of course some bishops might be more lenient than others, but as my daughter said “it’s only fair to require people to work”.

This is true but it doesn’t mean that in cases of emergency it won’t be open to those in need. LDS hold people accountable when they are able to work, but are very generous when someone is truly in need. I admire the way the manage their “welfare”. Catholics and society at large could learn from the LDS in this matter.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .she asked rather abrubtly if anyone in my family was Mormon, or were friends with any Mormons. I thought back. Then, it occured to me that my great great grandfather had a friend that was Mormon. I remembered this because my father had pointed this out to me once. Anyway, she tells me I shouldn’t be surprised if he is baptised Mormon, even though he is dead, and never believed in his life.

How can I check if my family member was baptised by a well meaning friend that was Mormon, who did what he felt was the right thing to do for a person he cared about?

Is she right? Could this be possible?. . . . .

StrawberryJam,

Your friend is right.

This is a very personal issue for me, having been baptized into the Mormon Church, only to discover I had been deceived about their beliefs. I left the Church when I learned of their real beliefs. I just found out this past year, that regardless of the fact that I submitted a formal resignation to the Mormon Church, there are no assurances that proxy rites will not be performed in my name after I die.

This is a quote from one of my 2009 posts:

. . . . .Today, I called the Member Records Division, LDS Church, 1-800-453-3860, x22053. Brother ??? (refused to give his name) looked up my name and said they received my letter of resignation, and it was processed in May 1997.

I asked Brother ??? if he would send me a copy of my letter of resignation. He refused, saying my letter is now “property of the church.”

 

[StrawberryJam]

Thanks Anna,

I hope this thread helps anyone who may find themselves in the same boat as I was. It’s made me consider the life of my family a bit more, and it’s made me wonder about the different ways christians cope with death of a loved one.
I don’t want to offend anyone by saying this, but I really really hope no one will do something like this for me when I am gone. I’d rather they spend their time doing something they love instead of going through this type of ritual just in case it could lead to my “salvation”. I’d like to think that is between God and myself, and not some ritual like this.

 

[zerinus]

I don’t want to offend anyone by saying this, but I really really hope no one will do something like this for me when I am gone. I’d rather they spend their time doing something they love instead of going through this type of ritual just in case it could lead to my “salvation”. I’d like to think that is between God and myself, and not some ritual like this.

Temple work for the dead is something that Mormons do out of love for their own deceased ancestors. If you don’t believe in it, then it obviously doesn’t mean anything to you. But that does not mean that it does not mean anything to those who believe in it as we do.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Temple work for the dead is something that Mormons do out of love for their own deceased ancestors. If you don’t believe in it, then it obviously doesn’t mean anything to you. But that does not mean that it does not mean anything to those who believe in it as we do.

Of course, I was not implying that for believers in this that it would be irrelevant. I have no way of knowing if it is or isn’t, nor am I condemning it for those who do believe it. That’s not my place. I am only speaking for myself, and wondering if I had a mormon friend if this could happen to me.

 

[zerinus]

Once dead, well that leaves us with a dead end there.

And in case you were interested, Mormons perform all the rites and sacraments of the gospel on behalf of their deceased ancestors, not just baptism. After a person is baptized, he is confirmed and given the Holy Ghost. Then he is ordained to the priesthood. Then he receives the higher ordinances of the temple. And finally, if he had been married, he is sealed to his wife for eternity as husband and wife, and their children are also sealed to them.

 

[zerinus]

Of course, I was not implying that for believers in this that it would be irrelevant. I have no way of knowing if it is or isn’t, nor am I condemning it for those who do believe it. That’s not my place. I am only speaking for myself, and wondering if I had a mormon friend if this could happen to me.

Well, if one of your descendants or other close relatives after you had died became a Mormon, it is very likely it could happen to “you” (assuming that you believe that you are still you after you die!)

 

[twopekinguys]

I found this to be quite interesting. It is from Alma 34 in the book of mormon.

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

This seems kind of contradictory to the practice of baptism for the dead. The book of mormon is basically saying you have one chance to get it right, and thats it.

I haven’t been able to find anything in the book of mormon that talks about baptism for the dead, and that it should be done, or how it changes what this says.

I know mormons rely on a single vers in 1 Corinthians for baptism of the dead, but I believe that one verse is being taken out of context, as Paul was talking about people that didn’t believe in the resurrection.

I would be interested if any of our mormon posters can show where baptism for the dead, or even salvation after death is possible in the book of mormon.

 

[twopekinguys]

Well, if one of your descendants or other close relatives after you had died became a Mormon, it is very likely it could happen to “you” (assuming that you believe that you are still you after you die!)

But have you read 1 Timothy 1:4?

nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God’s work–which is by faith.

How does that verse fit into the whole baptism of the dead?

 

[zerinus]

I found this to be quite interesting. It is from Alma 34 in the book of mormon.

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

This seems kind of contradictory to the practice of baptism for the dead. The book of mormon is basically saying you have one chance to get it right, and thats it.

Those who have had the opportunity to accept the gospel in this life and rejected it, will not get a second chance in the next life. Baptism for the dead is for those who have not had that opportunity in this life.

I haven’t been able to find anything in the book of mormon that talks about baptism for the dead, and that it should be done, or how it changes what this says.

I know mormons rely on a single vers in 1 Corinthians for baptism of the dead, but I believe that one verse is being taken out of context, as Paul was talking about people that didn’t believe in the resurrection.

I would be interested if any of our mormon posters can show where baptism for the dead, or even salvation after death is possible in the book of mormon.

It is possible that temple work for the dead had not been revealed to the Book of Mormon people. Just because something is revealed to us, it does not mean that it should have been revealed to them.

 

[zerinus]

But have you read 1 Timothy 1:4?

nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God’s work–which is by faith.

How does that verse fit into the whole baptism of the dead?

We don’t have enough context to know what it is that Paul was referring to. We don’t know what those people were doing that Paul calls “endless genealogies”. It does not mean that anybody who does anything that has anything to do with genealogy must be wrong. The Bible itself is full of genealogies. If you think that Paul is condemning anything to do with genealogy, then he must be condemning the Bible.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Those who have had the opportunity to accept the gospel in this life and rejected it, will not get a second chance in the next life. Baptism for the dead is for those who have not had that opportunity in this life.

It is possible that temple work for the dead had not been revealed to the Book of Mormon people. Just because something is revealed to us, it does not mean that it should have been revealed to them.

You are not a Book of Mormon person? What? I don’t know what this means. Are there different kinds of Mormons? What kind are you?

 

[dianaiad]

I have many dear LDS friends and I know that both my daughter and I have been baptized by proxy.

Uh, sorry…but no. Since we have this rather important thing called ‘free agency,’ as long as you are alive, you have to do the thing yourself. Nobody is going to be baptized on your behalf until you are a year dead AND you have descendents/family members who want to do it for you. Even then it is entirely up to you whether you want it or not.

I am at peace with this because if it makes my friends happy, then so be it. I am at peace with being baptized into the “one true Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” and my soul knows where it will be! My daughter’s best friend in high school was Mormon and I allowed her to go to Young Women’s Group (Mormon faith study) with her friend. She was kicked out on the second day for spouting “Catholic” heresy! Sister Jean Marie at Holy Spirit Elementary School taught her well, as did the Jesuits at Loyoloa Marymount University. Live in Peace and walk with the Lord.

 

[dianaiad]

Thanks for the info! I enjoy your posts on the forums here. It is quite obvious that you are a very thoughtful and insightful person. I’ll add you to my prayer intentions that you are accepted into med school soon! My daughter attended a “well known” Jesuit university that is quite well known for its work in the area of social justice. I’ve been saddened recently by reading on different sites how very conservative Catholics are demeaning social- justice- based Catholic universities. Yes, there are very conservative Catholic universities that are available, however, I wanted my child to receive the best possible education available and that meant sending her to a “more diverse and open” environment that would be looked upon by graduate schools as an outstanding educational institution.

I have to backtrack and agree with you that I was being one sided in my assertion that Mormon’s only care about themselves. In my personal life my LDS friends are very caring about those who are Mormon and those who are not part of their church. Maybe it’s the corporate end of LDS that seems so remote to helping others. In my city, the LDS church does not take part in the community food bank which has been run by the interfaith council for nearly half a century. They assured our regional newspaper that they take care of their “own” needs. Thank goodness most other churches in our area don’t have that attitude!

That’s a slightly different situation; we DO have our own food banks. Because of this, no Mormon need go to a food bank administered by anyone else. However, there is certainly no prohibition against individual Mormons contributing to non-LDS charities; in fact, it is encouraged.

The problem here is organization. No ward has to be entirely self supporting, you see; the tithes from someone in Seattle are quite likely to be used to fix a building in Haiti, and the welfare contributions are also handled centrally. Thus we CAN, as a church, act very quickly in times of disaster (like in Haiti or during Katrina or the Tsunami) with large contributions of money and supplies; it’s centralized aid.

The downside of this is that on the local level, the wards, AS official wards, do not have the wherewithall to support non-LDS local charities. They DO send people, and ask THEM to donate. I just recently attended the most marvelous piano concert by a young man who is headed for Juliard…he recruited talent from all over the local wards to perform in a concert to help the local homeless shelter. It was his Eagle Scout project (a unique idea…and it raised a couple of thousand for the shelter, as well as a couple of truckloads of canned goods). THAT is what we do.

If it looks strange from the outside, perhaps it would help to know that in times of trouble, our Bishop’s warehouses are thrown open to everybody.

 

[zerinus]

You are not a Book of Mormon person? What? I don’t know what this means. Are there different kinds of Mormons? What kind are you?

I have no idea what you are talking about. You have to explain.