Non confrontational question for any practicing Mormon (former mormons, please state so when posting)

[dianaiad]

Again with the snottiness.

First of all, I was not pretending the rest of the thread didn’t exist - I was correcting (or attempting to anyway) your errors regarding Catholic beliefs.

Jay, I don’t have any misconceptions about Catholic beliefs in this matter. In fact, I have consistently simply repeated what you said about them, and agreed with you.

You insist that your prayers do not coerce God. I agreed with you. They don’t. (and I never claimed that they did, by the way…that was your strawman.) You insist that there is no need to ask those for whom you pray whether they want those prayers or not, because any of them who did not want them would be in hell, not purgatory.

Ok, I’ll go with that…it is moot. You still don’t ask 'em.

You justify what you do all over the place, and that’s fine. You don’t HAVE to justify your faith or your actions. It’s OK. However, as I once posted in very large, bolded, italic and underlined font, justifying your actions is not the same as denying them.

The only point I made is this: you pray for those you believe need your help, and you ask God to help them. That’s fine…and you don’t ask those for whom you pray whether it is OK with them to do it. You simply assume that it is. Your assumption may or may not be correct; it doesn’t matter. The point is, you assume, you don’t ask.

How would you know I was doing that? How about by umm…actually reading what people post… instead of skimming over the posts and lumping everyone together in one category? I understand that you are defensive about this issue, but that doesn’t give you the right to make false accusations about someone - especially after they have corrected you FIVE different times.

I give up.

 

[Jay53]

Jay, I don’t have any misconceptions about Catholic beliefs in this matter. In fact, I have consistently simply repeated what you said about them, and agreed with you.

You insist that your prayers do not coerce God. I agreed with you. They don’t. (and I never claimed that they did, by the way…that was your strawman.) You insist that there is no need to ask those for whom you pray whether they want those prayers or not, because any of them who did not want them would be in hell, not purgatory.

No, you’ve said that God is coercing the deceased - at our request. (Posts #307 & #316)
That is a completely inaccurate portrayal of Catholic prayer and Catholic belief.

Please see Robert in SD’s last post (#404).

 

[ParkerD]

You’re missing the point Diana. Those in Purgatory are already headed for heaven. They’re not choosing an alternative. And because the prayers we make are in Christ, they are distributed by Christ as He directs. We trust in Him that no one will be "forced’ to accept anything they do not want.

Yes, we do know that everyone in purgatory, by definition, wants to go to heaven. And Scripture tells us to pray for each other, so we know our prayers are wanted. It’s nothing to worry about.

I pray for all the souls in purgatory. If a person is in purgatory, they can use the prayers. If they are in purgatory, they are Catholic, regardless of their faith tradition during their earthly life.

And we know from Scripture and Tradition that (1) all in purgatory are in a state of grace and headed for heaven, where they want to be; and (2) that we are to pray for each other, as members of the body of Christ.

So, I think you are still misunderstanding the concept. Sorry I cannot explain it to you any better. As I indicated, analogies are never perfect.

Peace,
Robert

Robert in SD or someone else,

Does one who believes in praying for those who are in Purgatory, believe that the people from the time of the flood spoken of in 1 Peter 3:18-20, and also the people spoken of in 1 Peter 4:6, were in Purgatory at the time Christ visited them, and are still in Purgatory–or where are they now? and did others have the same kind of result from their lives on earth, or was that a unique one-time situation? I would be interested to know how these verses are viewed as a precedent?

 

[Jay53]

Robert in SD or someone else,

Does one who believes in praying for those who are in Purgatory, believe that the people from the time of the flood spoken of in 1 Peter 3:18-20, and also the people spoken of in 1 Peter 4:6, were in Purgatory at the time Christ visited them, and are still in Purgatory–or where are they now? and did others have the same kind of result from their lives on earth, or was that a unique one-time situation? I would be interested to know how these verses are viewed as a precedent?

The people that Christ visited in 1 Peter 3:18-20 were in Purgatory at that time. I think I read once that Christ, Blessed Mother and our guardian angels can visit us in Purgatory and give us comfort while we are there.

As to where these souls are now? That is up to God. I would surmise that they are in Heaven already, but if not, then they are still in Purgatory.

I don’t think I understand your question about “did others have the same kind of result from their lives on earth?” Everyone faces judgment at the time of death. If they accept God and do not have any temporal punishment to face, then they go directly to Heaven. If they have accepted God, but DO have temporal punishment to face, then they go to Purgatory, until they’re ready for Heaven. (I think the majority of people go here, but that’s just my opinion. ) If they reject God, they go to Hell.

 

[dianaiad]

No, you’ve said that God is coercing the deceased - at our request. (Posts #307 & #316)
That is a completely inaccurate portrayal of Catholic prayer and Catholic belief.

Please see Robert in SD’s last post (#404).

You are quite correct. That IS what I said…that you are asking Him to coerce them at your request. He will do as He wills…but this isn’t about what HE does. It’s what YOU do.

By asking Him to do things to, or for, others, YOU are attempting to coerce those others into a mold you would prefer them to take–and you are simply assuming that those others would be just dandy with that.

They may well be, but the point is, you don’t KNOW that, do you? You don’t ask them. I know for a fact that there are people out there who would be most insulted if I prayed for them. I know, because I ASKED. I do not assume that their minds are going to be instantly changed and enlightened as soon as they kick the bucket…and that is the entire reasoning behind proxy baptism. We do NOT assume that those for whom we do this are going to be ‘of course’ all for it. We are very aware that, since the choice IS theirs, that some of them are going to say ‘no, thank you,’ or “no,’ or 'no (insert some epithet or other here)” …and that it is what THEY say about it that counts.

The problem here is that you honestly do not see the point I’m making. This isn’t about whether praying for the dead is a good thing or a bad thing. On the whole, I think it’s a good thing. Can’t hurt, anyway–at least I don’t think so. (If I saw things from your POV I might have a different outlook…) However, I do not for an instant forget that when I pray for others, I am attempting to impose my will upon theirs, even when it is done through, and by, a loving Father. It’s not HIS motivation that is in question here, is it? It’s yours.

 

[Jay53]

You are quite correct. That IS what I said…that you are asking Him to coerce them at your request. He will do as He wills…but this isn’t about what HE does. It’s what YOU do.

By asking Him to do things to, or for, others, YOU are attempting to coerce those others into a mold you would prefer them to take–and you are simply assuming that those others would be just dandy with that.

They may well be, but the point is, you don’t KNOW that, do you? You don’t ask them. I know for a fact that there are people out there who would be most insulted if I prayed for them. I know, because I ASKED. I do not assume that their minds are going to be instantly changed and enlightened as soon as they kick the bucket…and that is the entire reasoning behind proxy baptism. We do NOT assume that those for whom we do this are going to be ‘of course’ all for it. We are very aware that, since the choice IS theirs, that some of them are going to say ‘no, thank you,’ or “no,’ or 'no (insert some epithet or other here)” …and that it is what THEY say about it that counts.

The problem here is that you honestly do not see the point I’m making. This isn’t about whether praying for the dead is a good thing or a bad thing. On the whole, I think it’s a good thing. Can’t hurt, anyway–at least I don’t think so. (If I saw things from your POV I might have a different outlook…) However, I do not for an instant forget that when I pray for others, I am attempting to impose my will upon theirs, even when it is done through, and by, a loving Father. It’s not HIS motivation that is in question here, is it? It’s yours.

That’s where your knowledge of Catholicism is lacking. We understand, particularly when praying, that everything is subject to God’s Will. It is NOT “our will” we are trying to impose on anyone. Everything we pray for we are asking for in accordance with God’s Will. We may not like God’s answer to our prayer because the answer may, in fact, be “no”, but we understand that all prayers answered are in accordance with His Will.

From what Rebecca indicated, Mormons believe that a righteous, sincere and holy person will always have their prayer answered in the affirmative and will receive what they are asking for, no matter what. If their prayer is not answered, or if they experience suffering in their life, then there is something deficient in their spiritual life. If Mormons do believe this is true, then I can understand your objection because you would then believe that if there is a righteous, holy Catholic out there praying for something, then their prayer will be answered against the wishes of those they are praying for. That is NOT how Catholics view prayer AT ALL.

IMO, people should not be offended if others are praying for them for exactly that reason. For example, if you were praying for me to become Mormon, I would not be offended, because God’s Will will take precedence over anything you may be asking for. Since Mormonism is false, there is no way that your prayers would have any effect on me whatsoever. That is also why, despite your insistance that I think otherwise, that I don’t believe Mormon proxy baptisms have any effect whatsoever. People who have died have already made their choices on earth. They are either in hell, Purgatory or Heaven. God’s Will trumps human wants and desires ALWAYS.

BTW, I’m STILL waiting for an apology.

 

[TheosisM]

The people that Christ visited in 1 Peter 3:18-20 were in Purgatory at that time

Actually, the Catholic Church teaches that those people were in Hades, specifically in Abraham’s Bosom:

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487

I’ve never seen Abraham’s Bosom equated with Purgatory .

 

[Jay53]

Actually, the Catholic Church teaches that those people were in Hades, specifically in Abraham’s Bosom:

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487

I’ve never seen Abraham’s Bosom equated with Purgatory .

You are correct. None of those people could get into Heaven without Christ. I just always considered it a “type” of Purgatory because they weren’t specifically in hell, nor were they in Heaven. They needed Jesus in order to get into Heaven.

 

[Jay53]

I suppose I should also revise my earlier opinion and state, in fact, that those people are definitely in Heaven since Jesus specifically took them there.

 

[mfbukowski]

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 **Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth.”**487

I have emphasized some portions of these quotes which I find fascinating for obvious reasons.

I think there is not one word of this I would disagree with.

What I particularly find interesting is the mention of the “keys of death and Hades” which is the interpretation I was upholding in the thread referenced above- that “the gates of Hell will not prevail” against the true church of Christ because he holds the keys to those gates.

Notice it says both that “henceforth” he holds the keys, implying that of course he still does, and that the work continues for “all men of all time and all places”.

How could I disagree with that?

We may disagree with the technicalities here but I think in spirit, we are very close.

 

[mfbukowski]

From what Rebecca indicated, Mormons believe that a righteous, sincere and holy person will always have their prayer answered in the affirmative and will receive what they are asking for, no matter what. If their prayer is not answered, or if they experience suffering in their life, then there is something deficient in their spiritual life. If Mormons do believe this is true, then I can understand your objection because you would then believe that if there is a righteous, holy Catholic out there praying for something, then their prayer will be answered against the wishes of those they are praying for. That is NOT how Catholics view prayer AT ALL.

Rebecca really does not understand Mormon doctrine; she thinks she does, but does not.

We do not believe for one second that God answers all our prayers or would answer our prayers if we were all righteous enough. God answers our prayers in ways we cannot fathom, and the reasons for adversity in life are many and varied, including God teaching us through problems. We all have problems in life from the prophet of the church to any one else. Problems are part of life.

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?index=1&locale=0&sourceId=876339b439c98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Under “Additional Information” it says:

Each person’s success and happiness, both now and in the eternities, depend largely on his or her responses to the difficulties of life.

Adversity comes from different sources. Trials may come as a consequence of a person’s own pride and disobedience. These trials can be avoided through righteous living. Other trials are simply a natural part of life and may come at times when people are living righteously. For example, people may experience trials in times of sickness or uncertainty or at the deaths of loved ones. Adversity may sometimes come because of others’ poor choices and hurtful words and actions. Suffering may also come through a loving Heavenly Father as a tutoring experience.

It’s a shame that everyone here seems to ascribe the worst possible motives and doctrine to Mormons without any good reason whatsoever.

If you think about it, if what Rebecca said was true, Joseph Smith could have just prayed his way (theoretically) out of being assassinated, and no Mormons would have problems.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Your so full of it bukowski.

If you think about it, mormon missionaries wouldn’t be telling people they’d get the “right answer” about the “truthfulness” of a book by praying more sincerely, right intent, arms folded, eyes shut tight, wanting for it to be truetruetrue…if you didn’t believe praying the “right way” will give you the answer you want. It’s True!!!

And ParkerD would stop telling people they prayed for what they wanted and God gave them just exactly that…and nothing more. Because your god only gives you exactly what you want.

lies.lies.lies.

 

[dianaiad]

That’s where your knowledge of Catholicism is lacking. We understand, particularly when praying, that everything is subject to God’s Will. It is NOT “our will” we are trying to impose on anyone. Everything we pray for we are asking for in accordance with God’s Will. We may not like God’s answer to our prayer because the answer may, in fact, be “no”, but we understand that all prayers answered are in accordance with His Will.

Baloney. If you didn’t think your prayers would actually do any good, or be effective, you wouldn’t be praying. Of course you believe that it’s up to God–so do I. Everything is. Of course you accept that your answer MIGHT be 'I won’t do this…" or “no” from GOD. Of course you are willing to accept HIS will.

You are still not getting it. We aren’t talking about HIS will, or whether you think everything is up to Him. We are talking about the will and wishes of those for whom you pray. You can’t even concieve of the idea that they might want to have any (name removed by moderator)ut, do you? You pray for what you want, and leave it up to God to do what He wants about what you want…but where does what THEY want come into it?

Bringing it down a little closer to home here: here is this,oh…wolf cub. You see it abandoned–orphaned by its mom. It’s starving. You report it. You know that the forest service people might already know about this cub, and certainly will (probably) do the best thing for it, but you go ask them anyway; how about capturing and protecting this wolf cub, raising it in captivity and then releasing it into the wild when it’s healthy and old enough? You know that the FS people will either capture the cub or not according to the will (and guidelines) of their jobs, so you’re ok with simply bringing the situation to their attention…though you might nag a little if you don’t see that the cub is getting what you think is the correct attention.

The FS decides that the cub is too young to make it, and there is a way to catch, raise it and keep it wild, so it goes and does it; puts the cub in a humane cage, brings it to a sanctuary, raises it and eventually lets it run free to join a pack. Everything is just dandy.

Right?

Well, where in any of this did you consider what the CUB might want? I know, I know…it is inconcievable that the cub even knows what it wants, much less that it might understand what is being offered enough to make such a decision…and this is why I’m using this example. Nobody ever asks the cub. However, people are not wolf cubs, are they? They are just like you. I imagine that those who have passed on actually know more about the after life than you do, come to think of it; it’s not exactly a stretch to assume this. After all, they are actually THERE, you aren’t. However, you are treating them exactly like you’d treat the wolf cub; assuming that you know what they need more than they do, and asking God, like you ask the Forest Service, to impose your wishes upon them. You are quite willing to accept what HE thinks, says and does, but you never, even once, consider the cub.

Again.

this isn’t about what GOD might do, or your acceptance of what HIS will is. IT’s what your motive is for asking Him to do something in the first place. Being willing to accept his “no, I won’t do that” does not alter the fact that you asked him in the first place, y’know. It’s about what YOU wanted Him to do, not whether you are gracious about His possible ‘no.’

continued on next post

 

[dianaiad]

continued from previous post

From what Rebecca indicated, Mormons believe that a righteous, sincere and holy person will always have their prayer answered in the affirmative and will receive what they are asking for, no matter what.

Well, Rebecca isn’t always right about what we believe, Jay, sorry about that. This is one of those things in which she is incorrect.

If their prayer is not answered, or if they experience suffering in their life, then there is something deficient in their spiritual life. If Mormons do believe this is true, then I can understand your objection because you would then believe that if there is a righteous, holy Catholic out there praying for something, then their prayer will be answered against the wishes of those they are praying for. That is NOT how Catholics view prayer AT ALL.

Again. It’s not about whether you are willing to hear ‘no.’ It’s not about how gracious you are in defeat–it’s what you wanted to do in the FIRST place. It’s about the results if the answer IS ‘yes.’

In law there is a punishment for attempted murder, y’know. If I go up to someone I think looks likely, and ask him to murder my rich uncle (who just made his will out in my favor…) and my prospect not only says ‘not a chance’ but also turns me into the police, guess what happens?

Yep, I get jail time. It DOESN’T MATTER whether I am successful or not, or whether the guy says yes…the intent is there. I might not end up on death row, but the penalty for attempting to hire a hit is rather serious, nevertheless. Simply saying 'ok, never mind then…" isn’t going to get me off the hook, either.

IMO, people should not be offended if others are praying for them for exactly that reason.

Well, that’s my opinion as well. However, they DO get offended. As so many have told me, what right have I to decide when others should get offended at what I do?

For example, if you were praying for me to become Mormon, I would not be offended, because God’s Will will take precedence over anything you may be asking for.

That’s nice. However, if and when I pray for you…and I WOULD ask you first because I can, it would be for God to lead you to the Truth He wants you to have. If I happen to believe that this is Mormonism, that’s my problem, not yours. To ask Him to convert you to Mormonism would be asking Him to coerce you into something you very definately do NOT want. However, I don’t know anybody who doesn’t want 'truth," do you? As well, I don’t know where God wants you at the moment, and I’m not about to second guess HIM.

Since Mormonism is false, there is no way that your prayers would have any effect on me whatsoever. That is also why, despite your insistance that I think otherwise, that I don’t believe Mormon proxy baptisms have any effect whatsoever.

Jay, I never accused you of believing that LDS proxy baptisms were effective, y’know.

People who have died have already made their choices on earth. They are either in hell, Purgatory or Heaven. God’s Will trumps human wants and desires ALWAYS.

BTW, I’m STILL waiting for an apology.

For WHAT, specifically?

Seriously. What for?

 

[mfbukowski]

Your so full of it bukowski.

If you think about it, mormon missionaries wouldn’t be telling people they’d get the “right answer” about the “truthfulness” of a book by praying more sincerely, right intent, arms folded, eyes shut tight, wanting for it to be truetruetrue…if you didn’t believe praying the “right way” will give you the answer you want. It’s True!!!

And ParkerD would stop telling people they prayed for what they wanted and God gave them just exactly that…and nothing more. Because your god only gives you exactly what you want.

lies.lies.lies.

Rebecca really does not understand Mormon doctrine; she thinks she does, but does not.

Well, Rebecca isn’t always right about what we believe, Jay, sorry about that. This is one of those things in which she is incorrect.

 

[RebeccaJ]

bukowski, I see you cannot address what I wrote.

 

[TheosisM]

I have emphasized some portions of these quotes which I find fascinating for obvious reasons.

I think there is not one word of this I would disagree with.

What I particularly find interesting is the mention of the “keys of death and Hades” which is the interpretation I was upholding in the thread referenced above- that “the gates of Hell will not prevail” against the true church of Christ because he holds the keys to those gates.

Notice it says both that “henceforth” he holds the keys, implying that of course he still does, and that the work continues for “all men of all time and all places”.

How could I disagree with that?

We may disagree with the technicalities here but I think in spirit, we are very close.

I completely agree.

 

[dianaiad]

bukowski, I see you cannot address what I wrote.

Oh, I think he did quite well. True, he did it in a rather typical "Answersplease’ fashion, but you don’t mind a bit when HE does it.

What is there about James 1: 5 that you don’t find credible? Do you really think that God is lying here?

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. "

Remember, in both the case of the BoM promise, for which I’ll give you the link (to save space)
Moro. 10: 3-5
AND in the above scripture from James, there is a very specific purpose to the prayers God promises to answer. Wisdom. Not things. not health. not safety. not ‘get my uncle out of purgatory faster.’ not 'Make this guy see the light." not “Oh, God, if you do this I’ll do that forever…” not 'Move this mountain RIGHT NOW"…but:

wisdom. Personal understanding. Knowledge. The promise is that if you mean it; if what you really DO want is the truth of something religious (well, the scripture says ‘all things,’ but that involves a little different sort of ‘pondering in the heart,’ ) then you have to have a few “in front ofs.”

Not unreasonable 'in front of’s" when you think about it, because without them you are simply setting yourself up to ‘hear’ what you want to hear, not what 'is." I can’t see that this would be much of a problem to anybody.

Item 1:You actually have to READ the stuff. With an open mind and some idea that, y’know what, this COULD be true–or it could not be, but I’ll let God tell me. At any rate, this passage rings true, and this one is a problem. This one, I think, means this, and that one, I think, means that. Any way, I know what it is actually saying because I’ve, y’know, READ it and actually, believe it or not, THOUGHT about it. I’m giving it a fair chance here.

Item 2: You have to ask God. Ok, sounds reasonable. He IS the One who is in charge, after all.

Item 3: You have to ask in the Name of Christ. OK. also reasonable. Of course, when it comes to biblical things and Book of Mormon things, it means that you come to this point already having a relationship with Christ, and with trust in Him–and that is sometimes a problem. Without that, you have to back up a step; first get a belief in Christ: that He is the Savior, the Son of God, so that you CAN trust in Him.

Item 4: You have to ask with a sincere heart and 'real intent." In other words, you really want to know, and actually entertain the idea that it COULD be true. You can’t go into this with a “please God, show me some way to get me OUT of this…” or “I know my pastor tells me that I’m tempting devils by doing this and he’s probably right, please don’t give me any ‘warm fuzzies’ so that I don’t have to change anything.” or "I think I want to know…but do I? " You actually have to be serious about it, and be willing to act on it even if you get an answer that scares you.

Item 5.Have faith in Christ. Well now, that’s the second time this one has come up. If you don’t believe that Christ WILL answer you, then you can’t get peeved if you don’t hear one. Can you? Faith isn’t something He gives you. It’s something YOU give yourself, by acting as if what you believe to be true IS true.

Item 6: if you do this, and are really serious about each step, then the promise is not (as you claim, Rebecca) that any request you make of God will be acted on, but that you will be given the wisdom to know the truth of the things you are praying about. That’s an entirely different thing; a rather complete narrowing of the parameters, y’know?

Now the question is…what if you honestly think you’ve done all this and still get told “no,’ the book of Mormon isn’t true?”

Interesting question, isn’t it? Quite a conundrum, actually. I mean, as a Mormon I could say 'well, you may THINK you 'did it right, but obviously you didn’t because the book is true. I got the answer." Certainly I’ve met arrogant Christians of other faiths who can’t for the life of them figure out why I, if I pray and ‘pray right,’ don’t instantly leave Mormonism for whatever it is they believe. They simply figure that I’m “praying to the wrong Jesus” and …well, I was going to say that they leave it at that, but they never do.

I think that most of those who honestly believe that they’ve done all the above probably haven’t…though they say they do. I think that it’s probable that they come into the situation with their minds already made up, or with so much fear of what they MIGHT hear that they close their spiritual ears even as they claim (even to themselves) that those ears are wide open. Perhaps they are interested in the church for cultural reasons rather than spiritual ones and aren’t ready yet.

However, I imagine that there are some who are absolutely honest about it, and still do not get that testimony that the Book of Mormon is 'true." I don’t know why…except that they need to be somewhere else for awhile. Truth is truth no matter where it’s found, and perhaps they need to find a specific truth in a different context than the way we present it.

I do believe that the promise is kept, though, whether the promise is made in the bible or the Book of Mormon. I think that the bible one is the more all encompassing one, though, which tickles me; here you are accusing US of believing that we can pray for anything at all and enforce our wishes upon God, when in actuality the specific promise we have in the Book of Mormon is a LOT more bound up in caveats than the one YOU are supposed to take literally—the one in James.

 

[RebeccaJ]

dianaiad:
Sorry, you typed over 6000 words! so I just snipped it…

You sure put in a lot of steps for one small passage in James. I think I’d give up praying altogether…oh wait, as a mormon I did.

I guess Diana, if you think God is that inaccessible it is no wonder you’re still LDS.

But thanks for the explanation. It still reads to me that if you aren’t getting the answer you want, there is something wrong with you.

 

[RebeccaJ]

PS…item 5 I disagree with you completely. I prayed as an atheist, expecting nothing. Feeling absolutely ridiculous talking to the air. God gave me a gift called faith. Very unexpected and like nothing I ever experienced in my life.