Non confrontational question for any practicing Mormon (former mormons, please state so when posting)

[Anna_Scott]

Parker - Thank you so much for your very detailed and thoughtful answers to questions about LDS theology and practices on these forums! I’m a newbie here and no matter if the answer is from someone from by background (Baptist as child, Catholic as adult) or from one of the forums regular LDS posters, I appreciate someone who takes the time to answer using scripture and research instead of just being trite (as I sometimes will tend to be) I am especially in awe of how you have tried to reassure Anna about the re-baptism.

Walk in peace and love with the Lord - April

kozlosap,

First, welcome to CAF. These are wonderful forums.

Though ParkerD and I have certainly had our differences, and have engaged in some very heated debates in the past (nothing wrong with heated debates); I have really come to respect the way Parker responds, and the way he handles the tough situations.

Anna

 

[TheosisM]

Thank you for the information, Parker.

Anna

Anna, this does seem like a good idea for you. If your proxy baptism requires First Presidency approval, then maybe it would be helpful to write them directly, and your letter could be kept on file if that ever comes up, and I’d hope that they would take your wishes into consideration if they had to make this decision.

I hope you find answers!

 

[dianaiad]

That is too funny. I took it up w/ her today too…

Actually, Vicki, what you did was send me a private message instructing me not to respond to you. Complete with a ‘thumbs down’ icon.

Which of course leaves me with a problem…in effect, you told me that you can say anything you want to to or about me, but that I’m not allowed to respond. I told you to put me on ‘ignore,’ instead…that way, even though I WILL respond when I feel the need, you won’t see those responses. That works. After all, you only have the right to control what YOU do.

I DO owe you an apology for something I did…that is, I confused you with KathleenG and said that YOU had claimed that the “Pearl of Great Price” was a rabid anti-Catholic book that the church was attempting to cover up, when in actuality it was Kathleen who claimed this.

I thought I had written an apology for that back when I actually made the error–but I can’t find it. So I’ll write it now. I’m sorry. I have no idea why I did that.

 

[Jay53]

Related question: Are all of the ordinances done for the dead able to be accepted or rejected? For example, if a deceased person decided after they were dead to accept Mormonism and the proxy baptism, but they were also sealed by proxy to a husband/wife that they actually despised in life, could they accept the baptism, but reject the sealing? Or reject a sealing to a spouse, but accept a sealing to their children?

 

[ParkerD]

Parker - Thank you so much for your very detailed and thoughtful answers to questions about LDS theology and practices on these forums! I’m a newbie here and no matter if the answer is from someone from by background (Baptist as child, Catholic as adult) or from one of the forums regular LDS posters, I appreciate someone who takes the time to answer using scripture and research instead of just being trite (as I sometimes will tend to be) I am especially in awe of how you have tried to reassure Anna about the re-baptism.

Walk in peace and love with the Lord - April

Kozlosap,
Thank you very kindly for your post here. I sincerely appreciate your having taken the time and interest to have posted. Have a wonderful day, and all the best to you always.

 

[ParkerD]

Related question: Are all of the ordinances done for the dead able to be accepted or rejected? For example, if a deceased person decided after they were dead to accept Mormonism and the proxy baptism, but they were also sealed by proxy to a husband/wife that they actually despised in life, could they accept the baptism, but reject the sealing? Or reject a sealing to a spouse, but accept a sealing to their children?

Jay53,
These are very deep questions about the whole institution of marriage and eternal marriage and about repentance and forgiveness.

“Sealings” are only valid if the people accept them and if the Holy Spirit of Promise has “sanctioned” the sealing and placed a validation on the ordinance. If a married couple from life never learned to work out their differences and love and support each others’ needs in life, then perhaps they needed the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to learn how to repent, forgive, learn to listen, and learn to love with a compassionate heart, so perhaps as they learn those truths in the spirit world they will indeed repent and learn to love their spouse in a way they did not experience in life. There is no guarantee that this will happen, but it is a possibility and an opportunity.

If they make those changes in their relationship, and if other aspects of their life showed that they lived by the “best light” that they had and incorporated the truths they had with them in their life, then it is a safe assumption that if they choose to accept the ordinances of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Spirit of Promise has sanctioned their sincerity and faith, then those two people will have learned sufficiently about repentance and forgiveness in the spirit world that they will find that they can get along after all and can in fact love and support each other with full communication and deep devotion to each others’ needs. Especially is this the case if there are children involved whom they both love and who become a part of the sealed relationship of the family.

If only one was righteous and the other not, then the one who was righteous would have an opportunity for a righteous spouse whom they could choose during the Millenium when the working out of things that need to be worked out will be taken care of, through being revealed by the Holy Spirit and by righteous resurrected persons coming to earth from time to time to pass along vital information to righteous people on earth.

Have a great day.

 

[Jay53]

Jay53,
These are very deep questions about the whole institution of marriage and eternal marriage and about repentance and forgiveness.

“Sealings” are only valid if the people accept them and if the Holy Spirit of Promise has “sanctioned” the sealing and placed a validation on the ordinance. If a married couple from life never learned to work out their differences and love and support each others’ needs in life, then perhaps they needed the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to learn how to repent, forgive, learn to listen, and learn to love with a compassionate heart, so perhaps as they learn those truths in the spirit world they will indeed repent and learn to love their spouse in a way they did not experience in life. There is no guarantee that this will happen, but it is a possibility and an opportunity.

If they make those changes in their relationship, and if other aspects of their life showed that they lived by the “best light” that they had and incorporated the truths they had with them in their life, then it is a safe assumption that if they choose to accept the ordinances of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Spirit of Promise has sanctioned their sincerity and faith, then those two people will have learned sufficiently about repentance and forgiveness in the spirit world that they will find that they can get along after all and can in fact love and support each other with full communication and deep devotion to each others’ needs. Especially is this the case if there are children involved whom they both love and who become a part of the sealed relationship of the family.

If only one was righteous and the other not, then the one who was righteous would have an opportunity for a righteous spouse whom they could choose during the Millenium when the working out of things that need to be worked out will be taken care of, through being revealed by the Holy Spirit and by righteous resurrected persons coming to earth from time to time to pass along vital information to righteous people on earth.

Have a great day.

Thank you, Parker.

Regarding your last paragraph, the righteous person gets to “pick” another spouse for their afterlife? What are their chances of finding another already unmarried righteous person? I guess I don’t understand this “Millenium” concept and will have to look into that.

 

[ParkerD]

Thank you, Parker.

Regarding your last paragraph, the righteous person gets to “pick” another spouse for their afterlife? What are their chances of finding another already unmarried righteous person? I guess I don’t understand this “Millenium” concept and will have to look into that.

Jay53,
Thanks. You may want to think about Abraham, and about Adam, and their roles as patriarchs of their families. Abraham was careful about whom Isaac should marry, and Isaac married someone within their extended family, and the decision was carefully made. Think also of all the spirits of young babies and toddlers who have died, who had real personalities and still have them. There will be relationships in the spirit world among extended families, so it is very plausible that a patriarch such as Abraham will be looking after his posterity and guiding the finding of a righteous spouse for one of his righteous daughters among his posterity whose choice of a husband in life turned out not to be so good. These patriarchs are solicitous for the welfare of their descendants, and have a guiding role in the spirit world for their descendants who will listen to their counsel.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, this does seem like a good idea for you. If your proxy baptism requires First Presidency approval, then maybe it would be helpful to write them directly, and your letter could be kept on file if that ever comes up, and I’d hope that they would take your wishes into consideration if they had to make this decision.

I hope you find answers!

Thank you TheosisM. I do want to get this resolved; and I did receive some helpful info on this Thread.

Sadly, Strawberry, who started the Thread, may not be able to find answers regarding her family. I wish someone could tell her how to find out if any of her family members were baptized by proxy.

Anna

 

[AMDGtoo]

I too don’t understand this. Got the part where a dead needs to accept the Baptism for the Dead. But then there’s the Mormon sealing for that dead, but not really because if he doesn’t like who he was sealed to, he can pick another…

 

[TheosisM]

Thank you TheosisM. I do want to get this resolved; and I did receive some helpful info on this Thread.

Sadly, Strawberry, who started the Thread, may not be able to find answers regarding her family. I wish someone could tell her how to find out if any of her family members were baptized by proxy.

Anna

I’ve had the same thought as well for my family. I know that my grandfather is in Family Search database, but from what I’m aware of, you need to be a LDS church member to see if ordinances were done…maybe if Strawberry knows a Mormon that could check for her…

 

[ParkerD]

I’ve had the same thought as well for my family. I know that my grandfather is in Family Search database, but from what I’m aware of, you need to be a LDS church member to see if ordinances were done…maybe if Strawberry knows a Mormon that could check for her…

TheosisM and Anna,
As I had noted in a prior post to Strawberry, the private message system allowed for a private conversation and such has been done in this case, with a resolution that satisfied the concern. I do indeed use newfamilysearch often for my own family history work that is amazing and delightful to delve into, and the new search and linking tool is incredible. The search system open to the general public is also amazing and helps many, many people figure out their ancestry.

Have a good day, all.

 

[Anna_Scott]

TheosisM and Anna,
As I had noted in a prior post to Strawberry, the private message system allowed for a private conversation and such has been done in this case, with a resolution that satisfied the concern. I do indeed use newfamilysearch often for my own family history work that is amazing and delightful to delve into, and the new search and linking tool is incredible. The search system open to the general public is also amazing and helps many, many people figure out their ancestry.

Have a good day, all.

Thank you ParkerD. Very good to know.

Anna

 

[Prague]

I have been working on my family history for some time now. I use ancestry.com and many times, when I have found information on my family members with their history, I will see where they have had their names used for the baptism of the dead, sealings, etc.
Really upset me the first time I found a very dear Aunt that was a nun, showing she had been entered with receiving the baptism of the dead ritual, and even sealed.

Also, many more of my very Catholic family members have this information entered in thier geneology records.
Just wanted to let you know about this website, but you do have to join to see the records.

Gods Peace To You All

 

[Anna_Scott]

I have been working on my family history for some time now. I use ancestry.com and many times, when I have found information on my family members with their history, I will see where they have had their names used for the baptism of the dead, sealings, etc.
Really upset me the first time I found a very dear Aunt that was a nun, showing she had been entered with receiving the baptism of the dead ritual, and even sealed.

Also, many more of my very Catholic family members have this information entered in thier geneology records.
Just wanted to let you know about this website, but you do have to join to see the records.

Gods Peace To You All

Prague,

Thank you for the information. Very disturbing to hear that your Catholic family members were baptized and sealed by proxy. Have you taken any steps to try to have these rites removed from you Catholic family members? I know the Vatican has gotten involved in this issue in the past.

I’m aware of that site. Have been hesitant to join–wondering what they do with the information one provides to join the site, and the info one provides to search a particular name that they may not already have.

Thanks,
Anna

 

[zerinus]

Prague,

Thank you for the information. Very disturbing to hear that your Catholic family members were baptized and sealed by proxy. Have you taken any steps to try to have these rites removed from you Catholic family members?

As I said before, those names are usually submitted by close family members of the deceased who happen to be Mormons; and they have as much right to decide as anybody else. If I did the work for my dad, and my uncle didn’t like it, why should he have a say and not me?

 

[Prague]

HI Anna I did call and ask what is up with this, and that is when I got the yakkity yak about they can accept or refuse, and it doesn’t mean anything etc. etc.
Once the Temple stuff is done, the record is there, and that is what bothers me.
Her name is connected in writing with this Mormon process.
Also asked if there is some way I could enter my Catholic family name on a register to DO NOT PUT THEM THROUGH THIS PROCESS. In essence I was told tough if some member of my family wants to do this they can have at it.

They also have baptized previous Popes, and sealed them with a wife.
I also found evidence of this

When you sign up for access you do not have to put any personal information in. Just usual e-mail info. etc. There is a search engine where you enter names you are looking for.

Gods Peace

 

[scottj]

As has been mentioned before, it will be up to your descendents. The church cannot monitor everything they do, and if one of your great=great-great-umpty great grandkids decides to do your work for you, they will.

However, it doesn’t matter. You can always say no thank you, if for some odd reason you even become aware of it.

Diana and ParkerD-
Believe earlier in the thread someone advised that you could find out if family members were baptized on Familysearch.org, and another person advised that it could NOT be viewed. Can you advise if there is indeed a way to see if a family member has been baptized after death in the Mormon Church?

Secondly- can you advise how far back in lineage someone could go? Specifically,my uncle married a lovely Momon woman and they had a daughter, my lovely cousin. I was wondering if perhaps they had baptized my uncle (who fits criteria as being dead for wellllll over a year), and then wondered about my grandparents.

When I first read this I must admit I tizzied out. What bothered me was not so much the fact they were baptized Mormon, just that they (the deceased) was not making that choice. Not to be flippant though, but, they have passed and hopefully are with Jesus and that is all that matters.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

 

[ParkerD]

Diana and ParkerD-
Believe earlier in the thread someone advised that you could find out if family members were baptized on Familysearch.org, and another person advised that it could NOT be viewed. Can you advise if there is indeed a way to see if a family member has been baptized after death in the Mormon Church?

Secondly- can you advise how far back in lineage someone could go? Specifically,my uncle married a lovely Momon woman and they had a daughter, my lovely cousin. I was wondering if perhaps they had baptized my uncle (who fits criteria as being dead for wellllll over a year), and then wondered about my grandparents.

When I first read this I must admit I tizzied out. What bothered me was not so much the fact they were baptized Mormon, just that they (the deceased) was not making that choice. Not to be flippant though, but, they have passed and hopefully are with Jesus and that is all that matters.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

ScottJ,
Temple ordinances are not intended to bring bad feelings into families, which is why the closest next of kin should have been contacted if someone were going to submit a name of a deceased from recent years for temple work. It would seem that if you could establish contact with your cousin and explain your question, you could alleviate your concern or could at least hear what was done to respect the family in whatever decision might have been made (not saying it was–these are always individual matters).

Since your cousin is the granddaughter of your grandparents, she really is the one who would be the logical one to whom the question should be asked about them. I think it would not be helpful for you to find out one way or the other from someone third-hand, because communication within families including honoring parents and honoring forebears and fostering loving relationships, is a sacred thing that should be respected and valued.

In past years, LDS temple work data was shown on microfiche in public libraries across the United States on a source called the IGI, but if I have understood correctly that data has not been placed into general access on familysearch.org, and every name that shows up on familysearch.org has not had the temple work done, but if the source shows as the IGI then it probably was done. (There are different data sources shown as a name is researched on familysearch.org.)

Best wishes with much peace to you as you consider contacting your cousin.

 

[scottj]

Thanks ParkerD,
Your quite right it is a subject I should be broaching with her.
Thanks